[Amanita]

My position is only that alphabetical hebrew writings predate the Greek

Yeah...except that's not even remotely connected to the argument we were having. It seems you have flashbacked to the debate you were having with noemon a few pages back.

[noemon]

And which is not true either.

Linear B was a syllabary as is the Phoinician, Canaanite, Hebrew et al. And which predates both the Hebrew and Phoenician syllabaries. Technically, the Hebrew and Phonician are not alphabets(in the strict sense) either, they are syllbaries just like the Linear. The first proper alphabet technically is the current Greek alphabet.

[Takkon]

@Joseph, see if you can make sense of it now:

[IamJoseph]

There is no "hebrew book" predating any Greek "book". Greek writing predates Hebrew writing, fact.

The Hebrew bible are alphabetical books [multi-page continueing narratives] - and may also be either the first of its kind or well among the first two - fact. You win when you prove your case in the alphabetical mode. Picture writings of course predate both Hebrew and Greek writings, both emerging well after Babylon and Egypt. Fact.

Greek stones with writing predate Hebrew stones with writing, then as soon as papyri was invented it spread to all directions, and so did the palimpsest and so did the printing machine and sop did the PDF.

A credible discussion must avoid at all costs being in auto-defense mode, and accept when the case is lost - the pursuit of truth and honesty is pivotal no matter where the dice falls - that is my position. To subscribe to stones and pottery jars, with no alphabetical books and no encumbent thread imprints, is farsical. It is akin to cave marks as proof of 60K year human writings, which fall like humpty dumpty when relevant population and mental prowess imprints are requested as its encumbent back up.

To put it bluntly - aside from numerously claiming it, you have not produced an alphabetical Greek book older than the Hebrew; that sir is the preamble. What is the reason for the absence of what must be produced if your premise has any validity - has the Greek empire faced destructions, exiles and dispersions - slavery and bondages - what happened!?

[IamJoseph]

Yeah...except that's not even remotely connected to the argument we were having. It seems you have flashbacked to the debate you were having with noemon a few pages back.

If you refer to the english language as opposed writings, this is possible, but I have been responding to posts and claims here which naturally extend itself to its precedent premises.

[IamJoseph]

Takkon. See your list - why is the V sound not found in those alphabetical charts, but seen in the ancient Hebrew? Did the Hebrew invent the V but not the alphabet? This is the reason the Phoenecian and all other languages have given the English, via the Latin and Greek, the spelling of Abraham with a B, when the original Hebrew spells it with a V [Avraham]. We learn from here that ancient writings says a lot about ancient history, now accepted as a faculty in archeology. The names listed in Genesis for example, are accepted as authentic of their times; names such as Mathew, Peter, Mary, for example, are relatively new and never seen in ancient texts.

Aside from that, we are still lumbered with a vacuum of Phonecian, Greek alphabetical books as well as a massive shortfall in any equivalence with the ancient Hebrew. Why is that?

[IamJoseph]

Both the English and the Arabic use the B for Abraham/Ibrahim. These are evidences those writings are not old; English being some 600 years old and Arabic emerged 320 CE. Both are well after the Latin. It may also indicate that the Pre-Islamic Arabs lifted from the Hebrew writings or the Gospels when the Quran was formed; this is only a conjecture, but how else, when the Quran emerged centuries after those books were already written and being spread all over?

[IamJoseph]

Linear B was a syllabary as is the Phoinician, Canaanite, Hebrew et al. And which predates both the Hebrew and Phoenician syllabaries. Technically, the Hebrew and Phonician are not alphabets(in the strict sense) either, they are syllbaries just like the Linear. The first proper alphabet technically is the current Greek alphabet.

As you well know, the Greeks were the first to translate the Hebrew bible, namely in 320 BCE, namely the Septuagint bible. It was a work they most sought to do after Alexander's invasion of Arabia. This says the Hebrew bible was already old, with a host of books in existence at this time, including the book of Joshua, the psalms of David, Jeremaya, the book of kings and almost all the Hebrew books found in the dead sea scrolls package. It is safe to say the Hebrew books, advanced telephone book size prose, were already some centuries older than 320 BCE.

I know of no equivalence of the Greek writings, so you have to enlighten me. Show just one single Greek alphabetical book pre-320 BCE?

[noemon]

As you well know, the Greeks were the first to translate the Hebrew bible, namely in 320 BCE, namely the Septuagint bible. It was a work they most sought to do after Alexander's invasion of Arabia. This says the Hebrew bible was already old, with a host of books in existence at this time, including the book of Joshua, the psalms of David, Jeremaya, the book of kings and almost all the Hebrew books found in the dead sea scrolls package. It is safe to say the Hebrew books, advanced telephone book size prose, were already some centuries older than 320 BCE.

Ptolemy did not just translate the OT in order to be included in the already existing library, but he collected works from all over the world. And established the finest library in the world. That a Greek man translated the OT does not mean anything.

I know of no equivalence of the Greek writings, so you have to enlighten me. Show just one single Greek alphabetical book pre-320 BCE?

If you have issues with facts that is your problem, not mine, I have already enlightened you and given sources with Greek epigraphies from the 18th CE. I gave you also from the 6th, I gave you sources about Greco-Roman law, I have given you the perseus database which contains Greek books digitized from the 8th and so on and forth.

You have already become tiring, so get over it.

To subscribe to stones and pottery jars, with no alphabetical books and no encumbent thread imprints, is farsical. It is akin to cave marks as proof of 60K year human writings, which fall like humpty dumpty when relevant population and mental prowess imprints are requested as its encumbent back up.

What is farcical is your ignorance. You do not know the difference between the writing systems, you believe that "Hebrew" syllabary is any different from the Linear? Farcical indeed. You have been given numerous sources and books with Greek books but you still fail to understand basic facts.

Now, the dead sea scrolls you got are not even in the hebrew alphabet but in the assyrian, during that time the Greeks had a much more advanced writing system(the first proper alphabet in the world) and far more advanced literature and science, with civil law, philosophy, science and mathematics, with universities already established, and you are saying that you don't see it even though you have been given shitloads of proof.

Did Plato write in stones his volumes or something?

Farcical indeed.

And just so you know, Avraam in Greek is with a v not a b. The b in Greek is a v.

[IamJoseph]

Ptolemy did not just translate the OT in order to be included in the already existing library, but he collected works from all over the world. And established the finest library in the world. That a Greek man translated the OT does not mean anything.

Ptolemy enacted what was initiated by Alexander, following his sudden death. A greek man did not translate the OT because they never spoke Hebrew; 70 Hebrew scholars who spoke both Hebrew and Greek [as did Josephus speak both languages] were contracted for this work. It took 70 years; Septuagint means BOOK OF THE 70.

If you have issues with facts that is your problem, not mine, I have already enlightened you and given sources with Greek epigraphies from the 18th CE. I gave you also from the 6th, I gave you sources about Greco-Roman law, I have given you the perseus database which contains Greek books digitized from the 8th and so on and forth.
You have already become tiring, so get over it.

Here then are your sources which I collected:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091109121119.htm
Remains Of Minoan-Style Painting Discovered During Excavations Of Canaanite Palace
ScienceDaily (Dec. 7, 2009) — Tel Kabri is the only site in Israel where wall paintings similar in style to those found in the Aegean 3,600 years ago have been found; researchers say this was a conscious decision made by the city rulers to lean toward Mediterranean culture.

This refers to a painting. Not applicable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispilio_Tablet
Dispilio Tablet From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search

The markings on the Dispilio tabletThe Dispilio Tablet (also known as the Dispilio Scripture or the Dispilio Disk) is a wooden tablet bearing inscribed markings (charagmata), unearthed during George Hourmouziadis's excavations of Dispilio in Greece and carbon 14-dated to about 7300 BP (5260 BC). It was discovered in 1993 in a Neolithic lakeshore settlement that occupied an artificial island[1] near the modern village of Dispilio on Lake Kastoria in Kastoria Prefecture, Greece.

You may not like to accept this, however I cannot accept what is termed as 5260 BC is bogus. This is just an attempt to promote Europe's world view; this needs follow up evidences of alphabetical books as an affirmation of assumptions on C14, which is not acceptable solely by itself. There is no need to go that far, I asked for an alphabetical book pre-320 BCE: where is it? Why don't you require this for your own satisfaction?

[/quote]
It says 'about' which is ok, I am not questioning small margin variances. This reference says another dating again:
Undeciphered Scripts Dispilio Tablet - Neolithic Europe, from the 6th millennium BC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Europe

Here it says another date again:
History of Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The markings on the Dispilio tablet. 5260 BC ......[http://wn.com/undeciphered_scripts]

These being undeciphered says no one understands them. Of note these are not alphabetical books, and they appear in a vacuum, with no surrounding follow-up imprints.



Re. [http://wn.com/undeciphered_scripts [In this interview for http://www.classicsconfidential.co.uk, Dr Silvia Ferrara of Oxford University tells us about her work on the undeciphered ancient script known as Cypro-Minoan....

The Bible is not active in any judiciary system today neither in Europe(nor has it ever been in the official Roman Empire) nor in Israel. Greco-Roman law is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Juris_Civilis

Those are not laws the world follows; they were also illegitimate in Roman times. E.g. in your link:

Legislation about religionNumerous provisions served to secure the status of Christianity as the state religion of the empire, uniting Church and state, and making anyone who was not connected to the Christian church a non-citizen.
# This denies the seperation of state and religion; contrasdicting the Hebrew bible, which is accepted today in bona fide countries [USA, EUROPE, AUSTRALIA, NZ, ETC].

Laws against heresy
The very first law in the Codex requires all persons under the jurisdiction of the Empire to hold the Christian faith. This was primarily aimed against heresies such as Nestorianism. This text later became the springboard for discussions of international law, especially the question of just what persons are under the jurisdiction of a given state or legal system.

# A heinous doctrine stemming from depraved Roman emperors like Caligula and Vespasian who proclaimed themselves divine, the Heresy premise requiring all people to worship his image. That is not a law!

Laws against paganism
Other laws, while not aimed at pagan belief as such, forbid particular pagan practices. For example, it is provided that all persons present at a pagan sacrifice may be indicted as if for murder.

# This is from the Hebrew laws, pre-fixed 'unto you' only. Namely, one from a different religion like Buddhism, which always practiced another way, were not liable to this law.

You will find the same throughout what you present as European law. The laws enshrined in Europe's judiciary today are Hebrew laws, such as:

NOT TO BEAR FALSE WITNESS [PERJURY]
NOT TO HEAR ONLY ONE PARTY'S STORY.
TWO INDEPENDENT WITNESSES FOR THE CHARGE OF MURDER.
NOT TO COVET [STALKING]
NOT TO DISMISS A WORKER EMPTY HANDED AFTER A CERTAIN PERIOD OF WORK [RETIREMENT LAW]
ONE DAY A WEEK REST WITH PAY
AUTOMATIC FREEDOM FROM ALL DEBT AFTER A CERTAIN PERIOD [STATUTORY LAW]
PAYMENT FOR ILL TREATMENT OF AN EMPLOYEE [COMPENSATION LAW]
NOT TO DESTROY A FOOD BEARING TREE [ENVIRONMENT LAW]
FORBIDDENCE OF HUMAN SACRIFICE
FORBIDDENCE OF ANIMAL SACRIFICE AS PAYMENT FOR WANTON CRIMES
NOT TO TAKE ESSENTIAL HOME UTENSILS, BLANKETS, BEDS, ETC FOR DEBTS [BANKRUPTSY LAWS]
A PLAINTIFF OR WITNESS MUST HAVE CLEAN HANDS [TRUSTWORTHY; NOT A CRIMINAL]
NOT TO JUDGE KINFOLK
TO ESTABLISH LAW COURTS AND JUDGES BEFORE SECURING WATER WELLS.
INCEST LAWS
ALL ANIMAL RIGHTS LAWS.

All of those examples are active today in Europe's courts.

[edit] DigestaMain article: Digest (Roman law)
The Digesta or Pandectae, completed in 533, is a collection of juristic writings, mostly dating back to the second and third centuries. Fragments were taken out of various legal treatises and opinions and inserted in the Digest. In their original context, the statements of the law contained in these fragments were just private opinions of legal scholars - although some juristic writings had been privileged by Theodosius II's Law of Citaions in 426. The Digest, however, was given complete force of law.





By the 2nd BCE, the Greeks had developed the most complex and advanced legal systems, had conquered your "majestic" laws as well and changed your own language and writing to Greek.

By the 2nd C BCE; by this time a host of Hebrew alphabetical books were already completed. This is also why you cannot produce a Greek alphabetical book pre-320 BCE; the date of the Septuagint and whereby Flavius Josephus, writing 2000 years ago, stated the Greeks got their alphabets from the Hebrew Alef Bet. Josephus was under Roman contract when this was written, and if it was not true the Greeks would have voiced an uproar! It should be understood that medevial Europe was doctrinally inclined in negating the Hebrew laws, which failed, despite this much misrepresentation of history has seeped into modern day encyclopedia. If one checks the sources they depend on at the bottom, they will find them less than satisfactory.

There are no laws from Europe, Rome or Greece - all of them are only contained in the Hebrew bible. Many laws [sub-laws] are derivites from the Hebrew. This may sound very haughty to the uninitiated, however it can be illustraterd very easily. Please show us a Roman law which is enshrined in Europe's judiciary system? You shouldhave many, seeing how you claim none come from the Hebrew bible. I can post the Hebrew laws, and I say you will not be able to negate a single one which is not accepted by the Judiciary in Euopre. Not a oner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language#Periods
History
Main article: History of Greek
Greek has been spoken in the Balkan Peninsula since around the late 3rd millennium BC [7]. The earliest written evidence is found in the Linear B clay tablets in the "Room of the Chariot Tablets", an LMIII A-context (c. 1400 BC) region of Knossos, in Crete, making Greek one of the world's oldest recorded living languages. Among the Indo-European languages, its date of earliest written attestation is matched only by the now extinct Anatolian languages.
The later Greek alphabet is derived from the Phoenician alphabet (abjad); with minor modifications, it is still used today.

• Linear B
In all the thousands of clay tablets, a relatively small number of different "hands" have been detected: 45 in Pylos (west coast of the ...
68 KB (611 words) - 10:06, 17 May 2011
• Minoan civilization
The first such archive anywhere is in the LMII-era "Room of the Chariot Tablets". operate the economic system and bureaucracy of the Minoans. ...
68 KB (9,887 words) - 23:29, 26 June 2011
• Greek language
The earliest written evidence is found in the Linear B clay tablet s in the "Room of the Chariot Tablets ", an LMIII A -context (c. ...
38 KB (4,687 words) - 01:38, 28 June 2011

Also, you need to be made aware of something else as well, Constantine the Great, who made Christianity official religion and his Minister(Eusebius), clarified as about who are the Christians, and the Christians were not Jews, in Eusebius's work, Preparation for the Gospel he answers the question in the 4th CE:
Eusebius the Minister of Constantine in Preparation for the Gospel wrote:
To those who inquire who we Christians are and where we come from"..."We [Christians] are Greeks in blood and Greeks in conviction

That is incorrect. Christianity is a monothestic system of belief, while Greece was steeped in a vile form of polytheism. Europe discared the Greek/Roman beliefs and opted for the Hebrew bible, which it calls the OT. What you refer to is a cultural and traditional retention, which is not denied.

[noemon]

Oh dear, obviously I deal with a broken record who fails to comprehend basic things, not complicated but basic.

Ptolemy enacted what was initiated by Alexander, following his sudden death. A greek man did not translate the OT because they never spoke Hebrew; 70 Hebrew scholars who spoke both Hebrew and Greek [as did Josephus speak both languages] were contracted for this work. It took 70 years; Septuagint means BOOK OF THE 70.

Nope, Alexander did not initiate anything with Jews, you are delusional. And yes, I know that 72 jews translated it at the orders of Ptolemy. It was not a request but an order, and he wanted so many so that the Jews do not lie and so that he can check with the others. It's like the police putting the witnesses on different rooms and checking if their stories corroborate.

You may not like to accept this, however I cannot accept what is termed as 5260 BC is bogus. This is just an attempt to promote Europe's world view; this needs follow up evidences of alphabetical books as an affirmation of assumptions on C14, which is not acceptable solely by itself. There is no need to go that far, I asked for an alphabetical book pre-320 BCE: where is it? Why don't you require this for your own satisfaction?

Bring academic evidence, but still it is irrelevant you spoke about having evidence of Hebrew since the 10th. In this regard you fail.

These being undeciphered says no one understands them. Of note these are not alphabetical books, and they appear in a vacuum, with no surrounding follow-up imprints.

I gave you deciphered ones from the 18th(Linear B). There is either an issue with illiteracy or just plain stupidity. You gave me Hebrew drawings from the 10th. I gave you from the 18th. You fail.

Legislation about religionNumerous provisions served to secure the status of Christianity as the state religion of the empire, uniting Church and state, and making anyone who was not connected to the Christian church a non-citizen.
# This denies the seperation of state and religion; contrasdicting the Hebrew bible, which is accepted today in bona fide countries [USA, EUROPE, AUSTRALIA, NZ, ETC].
Laws against heresy
The very first law in the Codex requires all persons under the jurisdiction of the Empire to hold the Christian faith. This was primarily aimed against heresies such as Nestorianism. This text later became the springboard for discussions of international law, especially the question of just what persons are under the jurisdiction of a given state or legal system.
# A heinous doctrine stemming from depraved Roman emperors like Caligula and Vespasian who proclaimed themselves divine, the Heresy premise requiring all people to worship his image. That is not a law!
Laws against paganism
Other laws, while not aimed at pagan belief as such, forbid particular pagan practices. For example, it is provided that all persons present at a pagan sacrifice may be indicted as if for murder.

As I said:

The book I gave you earlier(The Social and Economic History of the Roman Empire), analyzes the Law of Greco-Roman society, and the tiny influence christianity had on it. It is worth noting that Christianity did not have any actual influence on it, except for accommodating the Christian organization as an organization, it did not have any qualitative influence on Greco-Roman law. Read the book if you want answers, these are proper scholars.

All these laws merely accomodated the organization of christianity. NOTHING ELSE. Greco-Roman law did not wait for the Bible to tell the Greeks that it is bad to murder or other shit like that. By that time, the Greeks were far more advanced and that is why the Law of the Book was never applied. I gave you a scholarly academic book, you read it first, speak later because you continue celebrating your ignorance even at the face of evidence.

Also you fail completely because the Greeks invented lawyers, like modern day lawyers. From the antiquity all the way to the present in the Roman empire(including the Byzantine), it was Courts of Law, Lawyers and Judges that controlled the judiciary. In jewish culture you never had that, NEVER, it was always Rabbis that judged up until a Greek man emancipated you with force, Napoleon Buonaparte the second time, Ptolemy emancipated you back then, but after we fell to the Romans you went back to the primitive stage. Greeks have civilized you twice(actually thrice if you put the Pelasgians-Sea Peoples as well). You are saying you gave us the law "do not bear false witness" but Greeks have lawyers studying in universities before you even got out of the tribal stage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logographer_(legal)

Get real please.

By the 2nd C BCE; by this time a host of Hebrew alphabetical books were already completed. This is also why you cannot produce a Greek alphabetical book pre-320 BCE; the date of the Septuagint and whereby Flavius Josephus, writing 2000 years ago, stated the Greeks got their alphabets from the Hebrew Alef Bet. Josephus was under Roman contract when this was written, and if it was not true the Greeks would have voiced an uproar! It should be understood that medevial Europe was doctrinally inclined in negating the Hebrew laws, which failed, despite this much misrepresentation of history has seeped into modern day encyclopedia. If one checks the sources they depend on at the bottom, they will find them less than satisfactory.

There are no laws from Europe, Rome or Greece - all of them are only contained in the Hebrew bible. Many laws [sub-laws] are derivites from the Hebrew. This may sound very haughty to the uninitiated, however it can be illustraterd very easily. Please show us a Roman law which is enshrined in Europe's judiciary system? You shouldhave many, seeing how you claim none come from the Hebrew bible. I can post the Hebrew laws, and I say you will not be able to negate a single one which is not accepted by the Judiciary in Euopre. Not a oner.

All our modern western laws are copy/pasted from Greco-Roman law. All of them.
Josephus has been proven wrong by academics, Universities as a whole laugh at these pitiful Jews of the antiquity who while having serious inferiority complexes like yourself, they were lying all the time. Today these questions have been solved and the lies have been determined.

This is what academics say about Josephus and the rest of Judean nationalists:

In her book “Not Out of Africa” Dr. Marry Lefkowitz writes: “The Jews shared the Egyptians’ patronizing attitude towards the dominant Greek culture. Jewish historians were determined to show that although the Jewish people were now subject to Greeks, they not only understood Greek culture… but these writers sought to show that Greek religion and philosophy had been inspired by Hebrew ideas… But an even more definitive assertion of the derivative nature of Greek culture was made by an Alexandrian Jew called Aristobulus in the second century BCE. Aristobulus did not hesitate to invent information, or to report information invented by others… He said that Greek philosophers Pythagoras, Socrates and Plato knew and studied the books of Moses… Of course, no scholar today would take seriously that claim… [but] by the first century CE some people believed [it, and]… the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria and the Jewish historian Josephus both speak of Moses influence on Plato… Later, church fathers like Clement of Alexandria (150-215 CE) and Eusebius (260-340 CE), took a decisively more hostile line… accusing the Greeks of theft and plagiarism… The determination of both Jews and Christians to assert the priority of Hebrew culture over the Greeks, helps to explain why the Egyptians where eager to point out… that, the famous Greeks were inspired by Egyptian learning. It was a way of asserting the importance of their culture, especially in a time when they had little or no political power… But the fate of Jewish ethnic historians like Aristobulus offer a warning to modern day advocates of Greek cultural dependency. How many people have ever heard of Aristobulus? And, more importantly, who believes him?” (pp 85-86)

Wow

Besides the fact that I have given you shitloads of evidence of Greek books prior to the Dead Sea Scrolls in the perseus project which you neglected, apparently.
Have a look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derveni_papyrus
http://www.theophoretos.hostmatrix.org/ ... phism.html

This is before Alexander the Great was born.

Also at some point you have to come to terms with the fact, that Hebrew is a culture not a civilization. Civilizations are the Egyptian, the Babylonian, the Greek(including Mycene and Crete), and these civilizations have independently produced LAW, WRITING, SCIENCE. All the rest have taken everything from them. And just so that you comprehend this fact, I( will give you an example. Blacks in America have developed their culture, and their culture(rap, jazz, fried chicken and whatever) are influencing the American civilization, but do not make the American civilization, a Black civilization.

The same way christianity influenced Greco-Roman civilization, but she did not make it a Hebrew civilization, she was on par with Black artists in America today. She just had a nice artistic theme(politically charged as well) which was picked up. Nothing beyond that. All the rest already existed as a science(law, politics, history, art) and they did not need any holy book to give them civilization for the simple reason that the Civilization was already at an advanced stage. The Muslims who were not as advanced, used the book to create law. But the Greco-Romans never did.

[IamJoseph]

Noemon. Derveni papyrusFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search

Some fragments of the Derveni papyrusThe Derveni papyrus is an ancient Greek papyrus scroll that was found in 1962. It is a philosophical treatise that is an allegorical commentary on an Orphic poem, a theogony concerning the birth of the gods, produced in the circle of the philosopher Anaxagoras in the second half of the 4th century BC, making it "the most important new piece of evidence about Greek philosophy and religion to come to light since the Renaissance" (Janko 2005). It dates to around 340 BC, during the reign of Philip II of Macedon, making it Europe's oldest surviving manuscript.[1][2] It was finally published in 2006.

Yes, I retreat, acknowledging there was Greek writing around 340 BCE, even that this falls in the category of a 'book' [multi-page, 4-page narrative].

I don't recall refuting this, only that Hebrew is older in the alphabetical category, and also an older nation than Greece, at least as an evidenced one. This is based on alphabetical books and Israel being 4000 years old, namely this is 1,700 years prior to the Derveni papyrus. I posted you Hebrew alphabets dating to over 3000 years.

BTW, I did take up this issue some 10 years ago with a professor of ancient history, and was answered in the affirmative, namely there is no question the Hebrew is older than the Greek. It would be interseting to have a modern time scholar answer this question.

Your other notions about Christianity are baseless; you are confusing culture and tradition with selected beliefs: Zeus was discarded by Christianity! The Hebrew bible was the triumphant one here - it is now the world's most known scripture, by impact, and cencus; Moses is the world's greatest human figure by impact, time period and cencus: 14M Jews; 1.5B Muslims & 2B Christians says so!

[Suska]

You still haven't addressed the fact that even if what you say is true, that we have older examples of Hebrew than any other writing that doesn't prove it's the oldest writing. It only proves that's all that's left as far as we know. The Egyptian wrote in stone is the only reason we know anything about them. Papyrus doesn't last. The Nag Hammadi tome is around because it was stored in a cave in a desert.

Anyway I still don't know what evidence you think you have. I must have missed that part.

[noemon]

BTW, I did take up this issue some 10 years ago with a professor of ancient history, and was answered in the affirmative, namely there is no question the Hebrew is older than the Greek. It would be interseting to have a modern time scholar answer this question

The Kingdom of Mycene is older than the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

Funnily this Derveni Papyrus is suitable to our conversation in another respect as well, tell the Professor to translate for you this passage from the papyrus(which btw I can still read and understand perfectly, unlike yourself and the Dead Sea Scrolls):

d'eterwn eteroi genet'Ouranos Wkeanos te kai Gh pantwn te thewn makarwn genos afqiton; wde men esmen poly presbytatoi pantwn makarwn.

Your other notions about Christianity are baseless;

The only person here with baseless notions is you.

you are confusing culture and tradition with selected beliefs: Zeus was discarded by Christianity!

God in Christianity is Zeus(Dios-Dio, Theos) and the Christian theological tradition is Platonic, not Judean.

The Hebrew bible was the triumphant one here - it is now the world's most known scripture, by impact, and cencus; Moses is the world's greatest human figure by impact, time period and cencus: 14M Jews; 1.5B Muslims & 2B Christians says so!

Nope, the antiquity Greeks that Eusebius and Constantine speaks were the triumphant political force in Rome, not any Jew. But I understand your predicament, you have only influenced the world a tiny bit through christianity(who has always been an arm of Rome), and you want to render this influence into something important when it is not as important as you think especially in the Greco-Roman world. The Muslims do abide by Mosaic law, the Christians never had to model their civilization after Moses and in fact not only christianity did not bring mosaic law but even her own self changed to Pantheism. Your spiritual children in theory and practice are the Wahhabi Muslims and yeah you should be proud for them, but the European civilization is another matter.

[geb]

the bottom line...

[noemon]

Geb, according to the experiment of Pharaoh Psammetichus, the first language of humans in the world is Phrygian which is Indo-European and the first utterance of a blank slate human is the word: "bake" as in half-baked. Joking but it's interesting.

A famous Phrygian word is bekos, meaning "bread". According to Herodotus (Histories 2.2) Pharaoh Psammetichus I wanted to determine the oldest nation and establish the world's original language. For this purpose, he ordered two children to be reared by a shepherd, forbidding him to let them hear a single word, and charging him to report the children's first utterance. After two years, the shepherd reported that on entering their chamber, the children came up to him, extending their hands, calling bekos. Upon enquiry, the pharaoh discovered that this was the Phrygian word for "wheat bread", after which the Egyptians conceded that the Phrygian nation was older than theirs. The word bekos is also attested several times in Palaeo-Phrygian inscriptions on funerary stelae. It may be cognate to the English bake (PIE *bheHg-).[7] Hittite, Luwian (both also had an impact on Phrygian morphology), Galatian and Greek (which also exhibits a high amount of isoglosses with Phrygian) all had an impact on Phrygian vocabulary.[8][9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language

[geb]

Indeed, eventhough a more recent attempt is in favour of a more microcosmic language.

I first misunderstood 'Frisian' (≠ Phrygian ), the sister-language of English, refered to in the original part of this thread.;

although it was once assumed that Dutch was the original world language due to the brevity of its words.

[IamJoseph]

You still haven't addressed the fact that even if what you say is true, that we have older examples of Hebrew than any other writing that doesn't prove it's the oldest writing.

I long posts ago stated, Hebrew is NEW in the ancient world; so are languages and writings older than Hebrew. Some 1,200 years before the first Hebrew emerged the Pyramids were built; at this time Egypt traded and purchased the RED ink for its stone etchings from India. So there was already international commerce prevalent. However, my position is still that the Hebrew predates the Greek; what this means to me is somewhat confusing to be honest. A scholar said this, but I wonder what was meant by Hebrew and Greek here; does it refer to the people Hebrew or the writings, I am unsure. So I checked up on this issue.

As we can see, Neomon insists, if not boasts, the Greek is eons older. Yet he was unable to produce an advanced array of Greek alphabetical books in a continueing thread, with identifiable historical NAMES, DATES, LOCATIONS, NATIONS, TERRAINS, CULTURES, WARS, etc - in a mode which can be historically identifiable today. What excuse can apply here - the Greeks became a mighty empire, made the largest libraries and claim the enlighter to the world - unlike the miniscule Hebrew peoples, forever in desert wonderings, exiles and bondage - where is the encumbent Greek equivalence of the Hebrew - where also is the Phonecian - or Egyptian for that matter?

The Hebrew books showcase this with amazing veracity, to the extent we have no equivalence any place relating to such ancient periods - not even from ancient nations like China and India. All that Neomon produced were letters in a pottery jar, perhaps ONE parchment with a few words, 'indecipherable' of their meanings, doubtful if this is alphabetical, positively not an advanced literary prose or historically evidential writing; plausably mis-dated: how the heck can this be compared with the Hebrew!? Consider that the first record of an identifiable geograhical location comes from the Hebrew writings [Mount Ararat]; so also: River [Tigris]; name [Adam]; names [a long geneology listing spanning 3000 years - every single one authentic of its period, from Cain to Ham to Nefertiti to Korach]; nations [Midean, Moab, Lebanon, Phonecia, Hitites, Cushites, Canaanites, Amorites, etc]; Wars [as in a hard copy 3,500 year Egyptian stone Stelle which mentions a 'war with Israel']; kings [the first king Nimrod]; independant cross-nation verafications and archeological discoveries. The greatest ancient literary advanced texts and prose we have is seen first in the Hebrew - so are its expressionisms and moral, ethical and judiciary paradigms, used by the greatest writers thereafter. These are my reasons for questioning Neomon; these are the factors in the default setting.

Re Philosophy. I also reject today's enlightenment comes from Greece; the reverse applies - an example relates with Europe adopting the Hebrew foundation as its theology; same with the Hebrew laws - exclusively ruling in Europe today, with not a oner from Greece - not even democrasy comes from the Greek! While we have figures like Plato made as sacred - what is ignored was the philosophy acument was in fact horrific by the lack of majestic moarl/ethical laws, with head bashing deities, children deemed not acceptably beautiful were killed off, and grotesque antisemitism archives of a proto-Christianity mode: things changed only after the Septuagint period. IMHO, Europe can well be cast as the educators of humanity - but they got it substantially from a desert wondering group - hated for daring to still exist. Israel is thus an affront for existing today. Its not like a football match here - if a hated player makes the goals he is hated even more. This is the plight of humanity.

Nope, the antiquity Greeks that Eusebius and Constantine speaks were the triumphant political force in Rome, not any Jew. But I understand your predicament, you have only influenced the world a tiny bit through christianity(who has always been an arm of Rome), and you want to render this influence into something important when it is not as important as you think especially in the Greco-Roman world. The Muslims do abide by Mosaic law, the Christians never had to model their civilization after Moses and in fact not only christianity did not bring mosaic law but even her own self changed to Pantheism. Your spiritual children in theory and practice are the Wahhabi Muslims and yeah you should be proud for them, but the European civilization is another matter.

One could not contradict Mighty Rome. None did - except you know which miniscule nation. Had Judea seccumbed to Rome's heresy decree, which she did not do to the last one standing, Europe, probably also all Jews, would be worshipping Zeus and Jupiter today. But as it turned out - there is what is called in America a Judeo-Christianity monolith; Mighty Rome is dead, only the glorified statues of depraved emperors remain in Europe's museums. Yet most of what you say about the emergent Christianity - arm and leg of Rome and Greece, has many kernals of truth therein: a cherished lie transcended the disdained truth. But that's another thread.

STOP IT WITH THE MULTI POSTS, FROM NOW ON THEY GET DELETED - SD

[Suska]

People are ancient, though our situation has changed over time. Many cultures are profoundly ancient and influential, which means if nothing else that we're not sure how long this has been going on, the storytelling and sign making, the singing and painting. There are differing degrees of certainty, obviously we can agree on our contemporary situation, but the farther back you look it gets progressively more speculative. Also, the modern world isn't the descendant of one tribe, but all tribes... Says the American Zen guy that grew up in Saudi Arabia.

[IamJoseph]

Many cultures are profoundly ancient and influential, which means if nothing else that we're not sure how long this has been going on, the storytelling and sign making, the singing and painting.

When we're not sure, all we have to go on are the evidence of imprints. These are not millions of years old concerning speech, language and writings. Mostly, I suspect, there is a new age atheism, disgusted by the contradicting theological beliefs and demands, with the tendency to dismiss anything which appears a theology, and they dump all their anxst on the only one which is history and emperical based and not belief based - because it is not a good career move to point fingers at the two biggest religions.

How can any honest person ignore the eerie alignment of all proof for modern speech humans being critically hinged on the genesis' calendar - as if a co-incidence can apply here?! The mode of dismissal, ridicule and anger displayed against this manifest and vindicated premise is shocking - as if there is a real counter proof - no, there is none. Zilch. Everyone crumbles when asked to come up with a single name just 5701 years ago - with 100's of justifications of their failure to do so.