[IamJoseph]

STOP IT WITH THE MULTI POSTS, FROM NOW ON THEY GET DELETED - SD

If you wish me to leave this forum I will gladly oblige: I'm not here to annoy or disrupt. The PMs of repeat warnings are getting petty and tedious - its not a repeat when used in a new context, especially when responses are ignored and repeating becomes necessary?

[Smilin' Dave]

So you double post in response.

The PMs of repeat warnings are getting petty and tedious

If you had complied with all the first request, like you said you would, we wouldn't be in this ridiculous sitation If you ignore the warnings and continue, the content will be deleted.

You agreed in PMs that it was not in fact necessary, and I've explained to you in painful detail how you can have one longer post, instead of five in a row. Since you clearly lied in those PMs when you indicated that you understood and would refrain, maybe you should just get lost? I mean if you can't comply with reasonable requests, and think you can just make up your own rules how can you possibly hope to be part of this forum community?

[noemon]

Everyone crumbles when asked to come up with a single name just 5701 years ago - with 100's of justifications of their failure to do so.

You are both delusional and completely ignorant towards other cultures as well as a moving target. You have made several requests, all your arguments have been destroyed and now you change the request once again.

a) You claimed that the Jews taught the Greeks to make alphabetical books, obviously you were wrong. Greek have older stones and older books with evidence than the Hebrew language does. Second you fail to address the fact that while Greeks still understand stones and books from 4000 years ago, you are not capable to understand Hebrew books from 2000 years ago, which makes your continuity far more corrupt than you are willing to admit.
b) You claimed that the Jews are older than Greeks, once again you failed because the Kingdoms of Greeks are older than then ones of Israel and Judah.
c) You claimed that even though your Kingdoms and books are not as old, your language is older, once again you are wrong. I have given you a book, that of Joseph Yahuda who compares the Greek place-names, names, as well as nouns and reaches to the conclusion that Greek is older and that Hebrew is merely a derivative of Greek, the Pharaoh Psammetichus reached to the same conclusion with his experiment and conceded that Phrygian is older than Egyptian, which makes Indo-European older than Semitic, and most particularly Greek since Phrygian is isoglossically Greek.
d) You claimed that your writing is older, again you were wrong, Linear B is older than Hebrew.
e) You claimed that all our laws come from the Jews, again you failed our legal tradition with evidence is Greco-Roman and not Judaic.
f) You claimed that it was Jews who stood against Rome as Christians, once again you were wrong, the Christians themselves said "We are Greeks in blood and in conviction" in Preperation for the Gospel by Eusebius the Minister of Constantine the Great.
g) You claim that Christianity is not theologically Platonic even though you have been given academic evidence that it is.

To sum up, the Hebrew influence is within christianity as an example to avoid, the Jews are the proof that Christians use as to why people should become Christians instead of Jews. Judaism functions for Christianity as an example to avoid not to mimic.

Your influence in christianity even though respectable it is not significant towards the civilization at large. In turn this influence towards the Western civilization at large which is assembled by many components largely Greco-Roman is even smaller.

To put it midlly, let us put it in equation terms:

Western Civilization= Greco-Roman law + Greco-Roman art + Greco-Roman sport + Greco Roman science + Greco-Roman History + Greco-Roman politics + Greco-Roman alphabet and literature + Christianity(as a cosmetic theme).
Christianity= Hellenism(Greco-Roman) + Judaism.

If we rewrite it:

Western Civilization = Greco-Roman law + Greco-Roman art + Greco-Roman sport + Greco Roman science + Greco-Roman History + Greco-Roman politics + Greco-Roman alphabet and literature + Greco-Roman philosophy + (Hellenism + Judaism).

Your influence is not even an independent aspect inside the civilization we are living, and Christianity at large is not an independent aspect herself, but a submitted one to the Law of Rome as is her theology submitted to Platonism. Qualitatively we can state that the purely Hebraic influence is near to non-existant. And it is only natural, Jews were merely a conquered minority with no real civilization to speak of. They were akin to the Black people in America, who are influencing American artistic themes but you cannot in anyway describe American civilization as Black, because of the existence of a Black cultural theme integrated into society at large. Jews influenced the Greco-Roman world on a similar level and were in turn influenced on a similar level and hence why Maimonides' spiritual father is Aristotle.

[IamJoseph]

a) You claimed that the Jews taught the Greeks to make alphabetical books, obviously you were wrong.

Yes, I stand by that. This is stated in Josephus [more contemporary], as well as by the ancient Greeks, and you have yet not produced the required proof of a Greek alphabetical book pre-320 BCE. The proofs you gave were responded to - links which are heresay opinion 1,500 years later, with no thread accept one indecipherable 4 page item - does not cut it with an alphabetical writing history as seen in the Hebrew.

Greek have older stones and older books with evidence than the Hebrew language does. Second you fail to address the fact that while Greeks still understand stones and books from 4000 years ago, you are not capable to understand Hebrew books from 2000 years ago, which makes your continuity far more corrupt than you are willing to admit.

I cannot subsribe to stones and 4000 books [?!] which have no follow-up; its not like the Greeks took a pause from history; so where is the Greek library near the Hebrew - what excuse can apply?

b) You claimed that the Jews are older than Greeks, once again you failed because the Kingdoms of Greeks are older than then ones of Israel and Judah.

I said the Jews are 4000 years old - with proof which is superior to yours. However, the point of discusion was not about peoples but their works.

c) You claimed that even though your Kingdoms and books are not as old, your language is older, once again you are wrong.

My only claim was that Hebrew alphabetical books are older than its Greek equivalence ['there are none older anywhere, in any other language]. I stand by this.

I have given you a book, that of Joseph Yahuda who compares the Greek place-names, names, as well as nouns and reaches to the conclusion that Greek is older and that Hebrew is merely a derivative of Greek, the Pharaoh Psammetichus reached to the same conclusion with his experiment and conceded that Phrygian is older than Egyptian, which makes Indo-European older than Semitic, and most particularly Greek since Phrygian is isoglossically Greek.

No alphabetical Greek book. You should have an array, relative to the 55 Hebrew books. Compri?

d) You claimed that your writing is older, again you were wrong, Linear B is older than Hebrew.

Linear schmilier. But no books. Which museum? My position is easy to KO - but not thus far.

e) You claimed that all our laws come from the Jews, again you failed our legal tradition with evidence is Greco-Roman and not Judaic.

Must I repeat mysel to kingdom come: please show us a Greek/Roman law, state it, show us it is active in any Christian/European/West institution. I gave you a good listing of Hebrew laws - all active today. There are no Greek/Roman laws active today - these have been unceremoniously dumped! These people - despite what is glorified by Europe - were quite depraved and brutish - many nations experienced their deeds. Thank goodness they are nigh!

f) You claimed that it was Jews who stood against Rome as Christians, once again you were wrong, the Christians themselves said "We are Greeks in blood and in conviction" in Preperation for the Gospel by Eusebius the Minister of Constantine the Great.

You force me to repeat again - when you are repeating. I claimed that the Jews solely challenged Rome - and won! Christianity never existed at this time, the word Christ/Christian first emerged in 174 CE. Nero never used the term CHRISTIAN' - it is a manipulation - go check the original archives.

g) You claim that Christianity is not theologically Platonic even though you have been given academic evidence that it is.

No, that is not evidence. It ain't Platoism which is today referred to as the OT - the foundation of Christianity - else it would never have taken off. Plato was polytheistic and worshipped Zeus. Hello?

To sum up, the Hebrew influence is within christianity as an example to avoid, the Jews are the proof that Christians use as to why people should become Christians instead of Jews. Judaism functions for Christianity as an example to avoid not to mimic.

Yes, this is also seen in Islam. But the reverse happened. Judaism is 2000 and 2600 years older than both, respectively - and not dependent on what those two religions want. You are cherry picking and omitting the pivotal factors. You forget that the last Pope canonised Judaism has its own path and needs no prompters from elsewhere. A greater issue for Christianity is Islam, which emerged around the same time, and totally contradicts everything Christianity stands for, whereas Jews do not even mention those two religions nor counters them.

Your influence in christianity even though respectable it is not significant towards the civilization at large. In turn this influence towards the Western civilization at large which is assembled by many components largely Greco-Roman is even smaller.

To put it midlly, let us put it in equation terms:

Western Civilization= Greco-Roman law + Greco-Roman art + Greco-Roman sport + Greco Roman science + Greco-Roman History + Greco-Roman politics + Greco-Roman alphabet and literature + Christianity(as a cosmetic theme).
Christianity= Hellenism(Greco-Roman) + Judaism.

If we rewrite it:

Western Civilization = Greco-Roman law + Greco-Roman art + Greco-Roman sport + Greco Roman science + Greco-Roman History + Greco-Roman politics + Greco-Roman alphabet and literature + Greco-Roman philosophy + (Hellenism + Judaism).

Your influence is not even an independent aspect inside the civilization we are living, and Christianity at large is not an independent aspect herself, but a submitted one to the Law of Rome as is her theology submitted to Platonism. Qualitatively we can state that the purely Hebraic influence is near to non-existant. And it is only natural, Jews were merely a conquered minority with no real civilization to speak of. They were akin to the Black people in America, who are influencing American artistic themes but you cannot in anyway describe American civilization as Black, because of the existence of a Black cultural theme integrated into society at large. Jews influenced the Greco-Roman world on a similar level and were in turn influenced on a similar level and hence why Maimonides' spiritual father is Aristotle.

To put it bluntly: there is no Christianity w/o the Hebrew bible. It becomes only a dead extension of Hellenism and Romanism, which it has tried to shove under the rug by virtue of sheer embarassment. Yes, both Christianity and Islam are vested in grotesque villification mode of the Jews - what you ignore is both are also in ubsurd contradiction of history, theology and coherence - even of the space-times they refer to. Both cannot be right - both can also be wrong. Humanity will not tolerate enforcement or villifications if they choose to follow their own. This is the outcome of the defense of the Jews against Rome's decree of heresy. This is the reason Europe does not worship Zeus anymore. There is not a single instance anyone has contradicted the Hebrew bible - and remained standing. Yet they forever try as a historical obsession - because they have erred greatly in attaching this villification to the core belief in a Creator - and it is nigh impossible to back off; it makes them feel they are NOT believing anymore. The Creator has been rendered a cursory after thought - if that. It has caused disaster for humanity - and the road ahead looks very bumby. Jews are merely the first in line here.

[noemon]

Yes, I stand by that. This is stated in Josephus [more contemporary], as well as by the ancient Greeks, and you have yet not produced the required proof of a Greek alphabetical book pre-320 BCE. The proofs you gave were responded to - links which are heresay opinion 1,500 years later, with no thread accept one indecipherable 4 page item - does not cut it with an alphabetical writing history as seen in the Hebrew.

I have produced such a proof, and you recognized it as well. Are you daft or something?

its not like the Greeks took a pause from history; so where is the Greek library near the Hebrew - what excuse can apply?

Indeed we didn't, the Jews did take a pause from history. The continuity of Greek literature is far greater than hebrew. Greeks have a library of books in a continuum, Jews do not. In fact Jews can hardly decode Hebrew without the aid of Greek. For thousands of years, the only existing bible was the Greek one. Good show. Your own oldest book sources from the 4th AD(Masoretes), the Dead Sea Scrolls do not count, because you didn't have them in your possession.



Only Chinese literature is comparable in terms of continuity.

I said the Jews are 4000 years old - with proof which is superior to yours. However, the point of discusion was not about peoples but their works.

You are confusing myself with your own, get real. I have given you real evidence, you have given nothing other than your religious fanaticism.

I stand by this.

Religious fanaticism.

Compri?

Just because Jews are religious fanatics that make every single book they produce into official doctrine, does not change anything. Greeks are not religious fanatics and their array of works is far superior both in content(having books on science, math, astronomy, morality, politics, economics, history, art and so on) and in continuity.

My position is easy to KO - but not thus far.

Religious fanaticism once again.

Must I repeat mysel to kingdom come: please show us a Greek/Roman law, state it, show us it is active in any Christian/European/West institution. I gave you a good listing of Hebrew laws - all active today. There are no Greek/Roman laws active today - these have been unceremoniously dumped! These people - despite what is glorified by Europe - were quite depraved and brutish - many nations experienced their deeds. Thank goodness they are nigh!

You are quite evidently illiterate, that certain laws agree with biblical laws does not mean that these laws source from the bible. You prove that these laws you mentioned did not exist in Civil code of the antiquity already before we came into contact and you prove that these laws were taken from the bible instead of the Greeks, for I have given you proof that in fact they come from Greco-Roman law. I have given you both the statement explicitly that states that all modern law sources from the Corpus Juris Civilis, an I have given you a scholarly book which deals with the subject directly. The Social and Economic History of the Roman Empire by Rostovjeff. Just because you are illiterate it is not my fault, and no do not repeat yourself until you offer equal evidence.

go check the original archives.

I have:

To those who inquire who we Christians are and where we come from"..."We [Christians] are Greeks in blood and Greeks in conviction.

Plato was polytheistic and worshipped Zeus. Hello?

Plato was the first man to rigorously establish mathematically proof of monotheism. There is no single writing where God is referred to in the plural.

the foundation of Christianity

Irrelevant, the message that Christianity sends to the world is Hellenic, the influence she propagates is Hellenic not Judaic, the Judaic message functions as evidence for ridicule.

there is no Christianity w/o the Hebrew bible.

Irrelevant, this civilization was not built on the model of Moses but on the model of Greco-Romans as evidenced.

Western Civilization = Greco-Roman law + Greco-Roman art + Greco-Roman sport + Greco Roman science + Greco-Roman History + Greco-Roman politics + Greco-Roman alphabet and literature + Greco-Roman philosophy + (Hellenism + Judaism).

Your influence is not even an independent aspect inside the civilization we are living, and Christianity at large is not an independent aspect herself, but a submitted one to the Law of Rome as is her theology submitted to Platonism. Qualitatively we can state that the purely Hebraic influence is near to non-existant. And it is only natural, Jews were merely a conquered minority with no real civilization to speak of. They were akin to the Black people in America, who are influencing American artistic themes but you cannot in anyway describe American civilization as Black, because of the existence of a Black cultural theme integrated into society at large. Jews influenced the Greco-Roman world on a similar level and were in turn influenced on a similar level and hence why Maimonides' spiritual father is Aristotle.

Do not repeat yourself like a broken record, if you do not bring evidence to the contrary.

And as a side note, read what the Greek Teacher of Raphael and Leonardo Da Vinci wrote:

These are the principal doctrines that ought to be acknowledged by one who will be prudent. [1] The first of these is one about the gods: that they are. One of the gods is Zeus, the supreme sovereign, both the greatest and the best that it is possible to be. He is set over this whole order and singular in highest divinity. He is himself being in its entirety and completely ungenerated; both father and highest creator of all the other gods. His eldest child, also motherless, and second god is Poseidon. Secondary matters have been entrusted by Zeus to him as master of all the things below; and, moreover, Poseidon is the origin and creator of the heavens here. He uses the other gods as coadjutors, as brothers, all motherless supercelestials--these include both the Olympians and the Tartareans. He himself then begot from Hera, a goddess productive of the matter, other gods within the heavens, both the celestial offspring of the stars and then the chthonian offspring of the spirits who are close to us by nature. Who even in Helios, the eldest of his own children, he placed his trust as the master of the heavens here, and, moreover, Helios is the source of the mortal things in it. Nevertheless, he achieves this with Kronos, he who is one of the Tartarean Titans and their leader.

The Tartareans are different from the Olympian gods. The Olympians are the creators and rulers of the immortals in the heavens, but the Tartareans rule the mortals here; so that Kronos of the Tartareans, himself the leader of the Titans, rules over the mortal form altogether. Hera, appointed second after Poseidon among the Olympians, is the creator and ruler of the highest matter, itself indestructible. She did this for the things made with Poseidon himself. Poseidon himself rules the entire form of both the immortal and the mortal. He is the master in the universe. He himself has truly ordained the whole order. Since Zeus, alone in the singularity of his highest divinity, rules apart over the universe.(27) Let this then be the first doctrine that one is to understand and believe.

[2] Next that these gods provide for us. On the one hand, they grasp hold of themselves immediately, on the other, they through themselves grasp those inferior, and all are entirely set right according to the laws of Zeus. [3] Next that they are not responsible for any of the evils, neither to any other in the universe nor to us, however, they themselves are most responsible for the good things. [4] And in addition to these things, that by an unalterable and inexorable destiny proceeding from Zeus, each effects its purpose in accordance with the best. These are the doctrines concerning the gods.

[5] Concerning the universe, first that this universe is eternal. Both the second ranking and the third ranking gods are in it. This universe was begotten by Zeus; it was neither begun in time nor will it come to an end. [6] Next that from the many universes it was joined into a unity. [7] Next that the best out of those possible has been made, precisely because it was made by the particularly best being. Once it had been made, it was such that nothing had been left out and anything added to it would be excessive. [8] In addition to these things, that just as it was set down in this form so it shall always be preserved undisturbed. These then are the doctrines about the universe.

[9] Concerning we ourselves, first that our soul, being of like kind to the gods, is immortal and remains in this universe the whole time and is eternal. [10] Next that the soul is sent down for the purpose of partaking in a mortal body here each time by the gods, at one time in one body, at another in another, on account of the harmony of the universe. That, even though we have a share in mortal things, one thing in us is from the immortals and this is our form. In this way, the universe itself is united to itself. [11] Next that the good is in us, naturally by our ties to the gods, and this is the fit end of life. [12] In addition to all this, that our happiness is in our immortal part, put there by the gods who unite our kind, and that is the substance and most important part of man.

These then, twelve altogether, are the principal doctrines concerning the gods, this universe, and our nature. If one, motivated by prudence about considerations of what is necessary, will also really be prudent, then one ought to acknowledge and be mindful of these things.(28)

Another thing you should be told so that you do not celebrate your ignorance in public that much is that Greeks were also the first to establish universal elementary education as well as the first University in the world(that of Constantinople) to both genders. The important thing here is that Homer's Odyssey and Iliad have been compulsory subjects in elementary education from the antiquity right through the Middle-Ages and they are currently compulsory still in modern Greece and the majority of the EU as well.

And I repeat, ancient Greek religion is an organic religion, not an organization. Ofc I do not expect from a religious fanatic like yourself to understand the difference, but who knows. Maybe you do but you are too fake to admit it in public in consistence with Jewish nationalists from the antiquity.

[IamJoseph]

I have produced such a proof, and you recognized it as well. Are you daft or something?

Yes, I granted you a singular item, namely one with indecipherable letters, purported as some 4-5000 years old and as alphabetical, so you cannot say I am dismissive of any proofs or evidences presented. I then asked where is the follow-up and surrounding imprints, in any wise equivalent to the Hebrew alphabetical books, a reasonable and logical question. You presented nothing else of substance.

Now you claim there is a continuance, and also that this is far greater than the Hebrew. I remind you that we have 55 alphabetical Hebrew books, some 50 years apart, with cross-nation trace evidences, each book brimful of dates, names, nations, wars, kings and geopraphical scenarios, most of which has been scientifically unearthed as relics; examples include the Tel Dan find which confirmed King David, a 3,300 year figure, as historical; an Egyptian stone Stelle, 3,500 years old and etched with a historical summary which includes the words 'A WAR WITH ISRAEL'; and alphabetical Hebrew letters found in Israel dated along the same space-time. This says the first Hebrew alphabetical book, namely what is called the Torah and which text says it is 3,500 old, aligned with the figure of Moses, is true to form as per relics and other factors: it appears authentic, with no gaps or vacuums; it is not reliant on sole assumptions of C14 or assessments made 1000's of years later by scholars who may be bias.

So before you opt for the Greek being far older, you first have to agree the Hebrew is reasonably well acceptable of its less older dating than the purported 4-5000 year Greek; here, the Hebrew becomes the yard stick how we measure any claims of older writings. Admittedly, an older writings requires less proof, but you have NO PROOF of a credible kind. Take the continuance you provided in your post: all it does is make assessments from a period 1000's of years later: there is no comparison here with the Hebrew books; the Greek appears with no historical, evdential substance; it appears mythical writings, of head bashing deities and the like.

its not like the Greeks took a pause from history; so where is the Greek library near the Hebrew - what excuse can apply?


Indeed we didn't, the Jews did take a pause from history. The continuity of Greek literature is far greater than hebrew. Greeks have a library of books in a continuum, Jews do not. In fact Jews can hardly decode Hebrew without the aid of Greek. For thousands of years, the only existing bible was the Greek one. Good show. Your own oldest book sources from the 4th AD(Masoretes), the Dead Sea Scrolls do not count, because you didn't have them in your possession.

You are not producing any books near equivalent of the Hebrew books. Assessments are not proof, nor are those assessments displaying contemporary imprints. This is my point. Also ill informed is that the Hebrew relies on the Greek for decoding: before Greece entered Arabia - namely 320 BCE, there were already most of the Hebrew books already completed, their laws and requirements active for over a 1000 years, there was a temple fortress, wars with serveral Arabian nations, and a belief system in place with a host of figures listed in the Hebrew books, with authors of the books, in writings which mentions a host of historical scenarios. I say the reverse applies: it is the Greeks who became the first European group to learn new knowledge; eventually the Greeks saw this as superior to all Hellenist or European doctrines, begat alphabetical writings [which is never seen in Europe at this time] and laws, monotheism, creationism and real history. The Greeks then formed Christianity, blending their own traditional beliefs with the Hebrew bible. The Greeks were not monotheists before the Septuagint date! No one in the European block was!

[noemon]

Joseph you said earlier like Jewish mods in this forum have said before you without anybody EVER challenging this sort of deluded nationalism that the majority of Nobel prize winners are in fact Jews.
This statement of yours I note has never been challenged by anybody, not even the supposedly avowed enemies of "nationalism". I am saying this because I know they are reading and coming into full realization of their hypocricy.

Well I randomly chose a person from the list of Jews that are Nobel prize winners and came out with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Wallach

Wallach was born in Königsberg, the son of a Prussian official. His father descended from a Jewish family that had converted to Lutheranism. His mother was an ethnic German of Protestant religion. Wallach's father was transferred to Stettin (Szczecin) and later to Potsdam. Otto Wallach went to school, a Gymnasium, in Potsdam, where he learned about literature and the history of art, two subjects he was interested his whole life. At this time he also started private chemical experiments at the house of his parents

Mother ethnic German, father officially Lutheran and a Prussian official and an unsubstantiated claim that the father once had been a Jew.

Good show.

When I post real testimonies of people of one's inner circle, I am a deluded nationalist.

Bile indeed, dear SD. BILE.

[IamJoseph]

Mother ethnic German, father officially Lutheran and a Prussian official and an unsubstantiated claim that the father once had been a Jew.

I don't agree with your view here. One cannot thrust someone by force in another enclave, cause them to be isolated and villified, with an agenda of missionising, then boast how they 'converted'. The rule for conversion is to be a light unto others - namely, by example only. Then too, we learn from the book of Ruth, to make sure it is genuine, the convertee must be turned away three times. Otherwise, one can claim prisoners on death row can also be convertees. I don't see Mohammed Ali's conversion as genuine - do you? Many millions of people were also converted to Islam - in Arabia and Asia; not a single one of them was a genuine convert. The same holds true in medevial Europe!

Coming back to the Greek vs Hebrews. Here is my own personal assessent why Greece must be an older nation - as opposed an older claim of alphabetical books. I say this in drect opposition of a host of scholars who state the Hebrew is older. I have not seen this factor brought up in any discussion, here or else where. Let me know if you have considered this reasoning.

Zoom back 4000 years in history to the coast of Arabia, a stretch between Egypt and Canaan. This is the point of the first known incursion of people from what is today Europe, namely from the Greek Islands of the Agean sea, to Arabian soil. These were the Philistines.

Whatever one says of this people, that they were pirates and terrorists, etc, it is also a point this was an advanced, intelligent people: they introduced iron into Arabia [the iron age], wore iron attire in battle which made everyone else terrified, were excellent as ironsmiths in Jewelry, they built huge underground cities [as in Gaza] and huge statues [their diety called Dagon]. What this says, this advanced people got their knowledge from where they came, not from Arabia. This says the entre area of the Agean, namely Greece, was of course an advanced civilization at this ancient time. Of note also, the Greeks later conquered Persia, then Arabia's mightiest nation.

Such factors are factually evidential from historical archives and archeological relics, and not debatable. So far be it that I ignore any nation's status. The other factor impacting in this scenario is equally compelling: the historical description of the Philistines is introduced in the Hebrew bible, its first recording - this was an advanced phenomenon too. Ths also says the Hebrew was already in an advanced state of percieving history in the making and diarising it, as no other. The Israelites were also the first and only nation which conquered the Philistines, while other older, mightier nations could not - this says they had some metal in them too, and were not dependent on the Greeks to know how to write, nor for that matter, the Phoenecians. We have no equivalent books from Phoenecia or the Greeks, nor from Egypt or Babylon. We now of the Philistines and of Abraham exclusively from the Hebrew writings - a factor which has impacted humanity more than any other; it also impacted the Greeks - even initiating their attachent to Christianity and the discarding of Zeus for Abraham's monotheism.

This view tells me that Greek may be an older nation with older advanced knowledge than the Israeites as a 'NATION'. But they did not teach the Hebrews alphabetical Hebrew writings, nor can one say their philosophies were superior.

[geb]

What I find interesting here is that the alvelolar approximant, proper to English, is strictly allocated to the north-western part of the Netherlands, i.e. in Friesland.

[noemon]

Ths also says the Hebrew was already in an advanced state of percieving history in the making and diarising it, as no other. The Israelites were also the first and only nation which conquered the Philistines, while other older, mightier nations could not - this says they had some metal in them too, and were not dependent on the Greeks to know how to write, nor for that matter, the Phoenecians. We have no equivalent books from Phoenecia or the Greeks, nor from Egypt or Babylon. We now of the Philistines and of Abraham exclusively from the Hebrew writings - a factor which has impacted humanity more than any other; it also impacted the Greeks - even initiating their attachent to Christianity and the discarding of Zeus for Abraham's monotheism.

I can agree to this and generally admit that Jews know how to keep genealogical records better than most, and better than the Greeks in some cases. The reason why you(not only you but others as well) get confused with the Greeks as a people is that people consider them one nation. The term "Greeks" was back then the same as the term European is today. Ofc they did consolidate in one nation which unified later. So you have many Greek genealogies(which ofc are bound to contradict each other due to diverging claims between the city-states) because each state kept its own records, unlike the Jews who were just one people. The Jews of the antiquity can be compared to the Athenians as a people rather than the "Greeks" as a whole who back then was the same as we say European today, it was an umbrella term. Jews for example are older than certain Greek city-states, for example the city state of Sparta is nowhere near as old as the city-state of Athens, the city state of Achea is even older than Athens, Jews if compared to one random city-state they might end up "looking better than it", but when compared to the entire whole together, it is very difficult because the numbers(in books, dates, stones, etcetera) gets too much because "Greeks"= 720 tribes and more than 150 city-states. So it is not a fair comparison in this way.

Judean nationalism as established after the Babylonian exile in the Holy Books was something really interesting for Greek monarchs who figured they had found the solution to intra-Greek hostility and in this sense we were influenced by Judean thought. I have said this before in the past.

[IamJoseph]

Another thing about Greeks is that they devised their philosophy by their own input. I see human input as greater than getting knowledge or revelation, as is believed, from a mysterious source. The Hebrew issue is mysterious to me, they devised knowledge by unidentifiable means, and that knowledge is very great, but its source is mysterious, even impressing the world's greatest philosophical nation of Greece; it takes wisdom to recognise knowledge and verify it as correct. Here, the Hebrew became elevated by and because of the Greek's acknowledgement; the other nations found the Hebrew laws, forbidding divine kings and the like, unacceptable.

There was a love hate relationship between these two blocks, which culminated in perhaps the greatest osmosis which impacted humanity. It was the Greeks which was the mind behind Rome. The Greeks steered Rome away from divine kings and paganism, and the most difficult task would have been Greece altering itself to form Christianity. In contrast, the Hebrew bible says the Hebrews got their knowledge without any input, locked in a desert and enforced to take on board a set of laws and paradigms which were substantially new and novel. The notion of slaves being told to accept laws is a big ask - its the last thing a slave wants; the notion of enticement here was also exceedingly great - the promise of a land flowing with milk and honey, an overwhelmingly enticing phrase in any language for a slave, used as the reward is astonishing. The Greeks were not enforced that way - they took it on board by themselves. A strugle is in a sense greater than revelation. Equally, and by the same principle, certain paradigms of Europe become unacceptable: a common human sacrificing himself and his family for his belief - is grades above any Messiah or Prophet with a magic wand sacrificing himself. Its the input which transcends.

[geb]

to all:
Which one do you consider yourself as?

[Potemkin]

Another thing about Greeks is that they devised their philosophy by their own input. I see human input as greater than getting knowledge or revelation, as is believed, from a mysterious source.

Acquiring wisdom through one's own rational efforts is more difficult than acquiring it through direct revelation, but is not necessarily 'greater'.

The Hebrew issue is mysterious to me, they devised knowledge by unidentifiable means, and that knowledge is very great, but its source is mysterious, even impressing the world's greatest philosophical nation of Greece; it takes wisdom to recognise knowledge and verify it as correct.

There are various hints as to the source of this 'knowledge' in the Tanakh - the Hebrew prophets seem to have been a rather large caste of people in ancient Israel and Judea; perhaps as many as several thousand at any one time. One of the most obvious hints as to the nature of 'prophecy' is in the first Book of Samuel:

And it was told Saul, saying , Behold, David is at Naioth in Ramah. And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying , and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied . And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied likewise. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also. Then went he also to Ramah, and came to a great well that is in Sechu: and he asked and said , Where are Samuel and David? And one said , Behold, they be at Naioth in Ramah. And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?

1 Samuel 19:19-24

This suggests the use of some sort of entheogenic drug to induce a trance state, similar to a shamanistic trance. The sense of disorientation and the act of falling down and stripping off one's clothing is also characteristic of shamanism. It seems to me that Judaism, like most early religions, had shamanistic origins. 'God' would then speak through these shamanistic mediums (who would often begin their 'prophesies' with the assertion "Thus sayeth the Lord:").

Here, the Hebrew became elevated by and because of the Greek's acknowledgement; the other nations found the Hebrew laws, forbidding divine kings and the like, unacceptable.

It was the Jews' assertion that there is only one God and that they were his Chosen People which the rest of the ancient world found offensive and repellent.

There was a love hate relationship between these two blocks, which culminated in perhaps the greatest osmosis which impacted humanity. It was the Greeks which was the mind behind Rome. The Greeks steered Rome away from divine kings and paganism

Actually, the Romans themselves kicked out their own kings long before they came into contact with Greek civilisation, and the Greeks were themselves pagans.

and the most difficult task would have been Greece altering itself to form Christianity.

Christianity resulted from the fusion of Greek culture and Jewish religion. This fusion proved to be epoch-making, and formed the cornerstone of later European civilisation. In cultural terms, Europe is half-Greek and half-Jewish. This is why the antipathy between the Jews and the Greeks, which persists even to the present day (as this thread bears witness), is rather disturbing to a European - it's like a child witnessing its parents quarrelling with each other.

In contrast, the Hebrew bible says the Hebrews got their knowledge without any input, locked in a desert and enforced to take on board a set of laws and paradigms which were substantially new and novel. The notion of slaves being told to accept laws is a big ask - its the last thing a slave wants; the notion of enticement here was also exceedingly great - the promise of a land flowing with milk and honey, an overwhelmingly enticing phrase in any language for a slave, used as the reward is astonishing. The Greeks were not enforced that way - they took it on board by themselves. A strugle is in a sense greater than revelation. Equally, and by the same principle, certain paradigms of Europe become unacceptable: a common human sacrificing himself and his family for his belief - is grades above any Messiah or Prophet with a magic wand sacrificing himself. Its the input which transcends.

I'm not sure what you you mean by this. Could you explain further?

[noemon]

In cultural terms, Europe is half-Greek and half-Jewish. This is why the antipathy between the Jews and the Greeks, which persists even to the present day (as this thread bears witness), is rather disturbing to a European - it's like a child witnessing its parents quarrelling with each other.

Christianity is half Greek and half Jewish, not Western Civilisation or any arbitrary Europe. Ceasar's to Ceasar and God's to God. The purely Hebraic aspects of western civilisation are not 50% of the civilisation. And the fusion took place happened under Greek terms and Monarchs with Jews that were already Hellenized.

Western Civilization = Greco-Roman law + Greco-Roman art + Greco-Roman sport + Greco Roman science + Greco-Roman History + Greco-Roman politics + Greco-Roman alphabet and literature + Greco-Roman philosophy + (Hellenism + Judaism).

In regards to western European civilization particularly that was born after the Greeks were already uniformed into Byzantium, and modern-day western civilization is 100% Byzantine. This is very important since even the Hebraic part(however big or small) of western civilization was not taught to Europeans by Jews but by Modern Greeks and it was the Greek version of Judean thought that the Europeans were instructed at as well as all the other Greco-Roman features of art, sport, philosophy, science and history.

Joseph is right in what he says even if he does not phrase it as best as possible, that Judean thought became elevated through the Greeks. It clearly did.

As for revelation(contemplation) vs inquiry, that is a difficult subject to tackle. Personally I do not see any distinction between the 2 if done properly.

[IamJoseph]

Acquiring wisdom through one's own rational efforts is more difficult than acquiring it through direct revelation, but is not necessarily 'greater'.

True. However, that greatness is not by input, its a gift of sorts. A freebee. I account the input a major tribute to humanty, and thus respect the Greeks who saw and voluntaritty came to the same conclusion by themselves, their own input, of monotheism being correct, as did the ancient Hebrews; the Greek input was greater here; the Hebrews got a freebee so to speak.

There are various hints as to the source of this 'knowledge' in the Tanakh - the Hebrew prophets seem to have been a rather large caste of people in ancient Israel and Judea; perhaps as many as several thousand at any one time. One of the most obvious hints as to the nature of 'prophecy' is in the first Book of Samuel:

Quote:
And it was told Saul, saying , Behold, David is at Naioth in Ramah. And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying , and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied . And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied likewise. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also. Then went he also to Ramah, and came to a great well that is in Sechu: and he asked and said , Where are Samuel and David? And one said , Behold, they be at Naioth in Ramah. And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?

1 Samuel 19:19-24

This suggests the use of some sort of entheogenic drug to induce a trance state, similar to a shamanistic trance. The sense of disorientation and the act of falling down and stripping off one's clothing is also characteristic of shamanism. It seems to me that Judaism, like most early religions, had shamanistic origins. 'God' would then speak through these shamanistic mediums (who would often begin their 'prophesies' with the assertion "Thus sayeth the Lord:").

Disagree. The Prophets had the clear advantage of the Mosaic knowledge and were simply affirming it. The notion of drug impact contradicts this. E.g. a person affirming a paradigm or law, TO STEAL IS A SIN [CRIME], cannot be aso charged with knowing this via a drug impact, even if this is recalled in a hynptic state - the thing becomes embdedded within.

Here, the Hebrew became elevated by and because of the Greek's acknowledgement; the other nations found the Hebrew laws, forbidding divine kings and the like, unacceptable.

It was the Jews' assertion that there is only one God and that they were his Chosen People which the rest of the ancient world found offensive and repellent.

I fully agree. The notion of one group being CHOSEN is unacceptable and contradicts a host of laws enshrined in the Hebrew bible. This also contradicts what we are told in the case of Jacob favouring one son [Joseph] - brothers killed brother here. Later sages denounced this action as one of Jacob's error. It also contradicts Abraham when told an entire city [Sodom] was to be destroyed: Abraham was certainly not obedient here and rebelled: WILL THE JUDGE OF ALL NOT DO JUSTICE - WILL THE INNOCENT BE TAKEN WITH THE GUILTY - THIS EVIL BE FAR EVIL FROM YOU. That this was told to God makes heaven and earth to tremble.

We know also that Abraham was blessed. However, when carefully read, the CHOSEN factor is nothing like understood by the nations. This merely means the Hebrews were made postmen with funny uniforms, with the recipients being the VIPs; the postmen were charged with a mandate to deliver the message of Monotheism, and some knowledge and experience was given them: it was PUT IN THEIR HEARTS AND THEIR MINDS, involuntarilly. The laws in the Hebrew bible give no emunity to the Hebrews; in fact the reverse applies. Also, the Hebrews were made small, with miniscule land asset and substance.

Then, when we examine the premise of CHOSEN, we see this was nowhere more corrupted than in Christianity [ONLY THROUGH ME COMES SAVATION], and islam [NO ALLAH W/O MO]. These are not based on any form of actions or laws, but merely by signing on the dotted line. Perhaps then this chosen syndrome is a test - to all, Jews who may have misused it, and others who would have distorted it to commit a greater error. The chosen of the Hebrew is mild [be a light unto the nations], compared wth the Gospels and Quran chosen criteria.

There was a love hate relationship between these two blocks, which culminated in perhaps the greatest osmosis which impacted humanity. It was the Greeks which was the mind behind Rome. The Greeks steered Rome away from divine kings and paganism

Actually, the Romans themselves kicked out their own kings long before they came into contact with Greek civilisation, and the Greeks were themselves pagans.

Rome worshipped Jupiter & divine emperors in the first and second centuries.

and the most difficult task would have been Greece altering itself to form Christianity.

Christianity resulted from the fusion of Greek culture and Jewish religion. This fusion proved to be epoch-making, and formed the cornerstone of later European civilisation. In cultural terms, Europe is half-Greek and half-Jewish. This is why the antipathy between the Jews and the Greeks, which persists even to the present day (as this thread bears witness), is rather disturbing to a European - it's like a child witnessing its parents quarrelling with each other.

Yes, in a sense, the Hebrew transcended the Greeks here. No other reading is possible.

Christianity is half Greek and half Jewish, not Western Civilisation or any arbitrary Europe. Ceasar's to Ceasar and God's to God. The purely Hebraic aspects of western civilisation are not 50% of the civilisation. And the fusion took place happened under Greek terms and Monarchs with Jews that were already Hellenized.

Absolutely. There is wisdom and rightiousness in all nations. Christianity is the educator of the world, even if not all of those lessons are correct. The modern world is the result of the spread of knowledge by Christianity. If the Hebrew bible is commanded to be a light unto the nations, it was processed via Christianity; Jews were in ghettoes and dispersement throughout this time and seen as a sore by the world.

If we look at the emergence of America, although Columbus and all his ship's mapsters were Jewish, and there was indeed a dire need for a refuge for many Jews, Christians and others oppressed in medevial Europe, the saving did not come by the hand of the Jews - it was more like a mysterious hand put it in the palm of the Jews although they were unaware of it. Columbus made a journey to India three times, and he was heading there again. How could he get lost - and at such an opportune time? Mysteriously, a strong easterly wind blew him away, and America happened. This new nation became a beakon to the world - its Constitution emerged out of the Hebrew laws, and a heavy accented Jewish refugee penned the hymn, GOD BLESS AMERICA. Dynamic stuff.

[IamJoseph]

- SD

[Takkon]

although Columbus and all his ship's mapsters were Jewish

What the hell? How can you believe that?

[IamJoseph]

Takkon. In Spain, many Jews became Moranos [Jews in secret] owing to the decrees by Isabela.

Columbus was not spanish:

Origin theories of Christopher ColumbusFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search

Christopher Columbus depicted in The Virgin of the Navigators by Alejo Fernández, 1531–36.The exact origin of Christopher Columbus (his national or ethnic background) has been a source of speculation since the 19th century.[1] However, it is generally agreed upon by historians that Columbus' family was from Liguria, that he spent his boyhood and early youth in Genoa, in Vico Diritto, and that he subsequently lived in Savona, where his father Domenico moved in 1470. Much of this evidence derives from data concerning Columbus' immediate family connections in Genoa and opinions voiced by contemporaries concerning his Genoese origins, which few dispute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_the ... r_Columbus

Re: Was Christopher Columbus Jewish?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The "Who was Columbus?" argument goes on: John Heelan writes:"I have found another interesting (and persuasive) argument that Columbus was a member of the Colom Jewish family in Ibiza and Catalonia.

The full argument and evidence is presented in Http://www.cristobalcolondeibiza.com/eng/eng10.htm.
The following first paragraph gives a flavour of the proposition.

"CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS AND THE ARCHIVES OF IBIZA"
The real name of the man who discovered the New World was Colom and not Colon (the Spanish form of Columbus), the form in which his name appears in the Santa Fe Capitulations of April 1492. Written evidence of this is provided by the historian Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo y Valdes (1478-1557) in his work "Historia General y Natural de las Indias, Islas y Tierra Firme del Mar Oceano", a work which was first published by the Royal Academy of Spanish History in 1851.
http://wais.stanford.edu/Leaders/leader ... us2(110603).html

Columbus and his crew [the DNA tests are bogus, with no affirming historicity]:

The article suggests in part that Columbus’s Jewish identity is affirmed by several factors: His crew included Jews, he referenced the Inquisition in his journal and his signature contained Jewish symbols. Those claims, however, have been met with researched assertions that Columbus was a Christian who lived during a time when learned European men viewed Jewish literacy as a sign of erudition. Findings in a DNA test performed by University of Granada forensic geneticist José Lorente at Columbus’s gravesite in Seville, Spain, proved that Columbus was surely Caucasian. Lorente did not find any evidence that Columbus was of Jewish descent. Consuela Varela, a historian at Spain’s Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Cientificas, has stated that Columbus refused to baptize his slaves not because of his faith but because Spanish law forbade the enslavement of Christians.
http://www.forward.com/articles/12638/

[geb]

But there is no use in denying it. It is now clear that the nation which most dislikes the Germans were once Krauts themselves.

[IamJoseph]

America is a Zionist Plot. No pun intended.