[Pants-of-dog]

The point is, it is still there and the entire substructure is still intact, as I said "it is not in pristine condition".

And there is no reason to believe that large parts of hydroelectric dams will not be intact 2000 years after anyone stops taking care of them.

I am at the dojo doing testings. I will go over the PDF and relate the requested information later tonight/tomorrow morning. I think it was from that PDF, if not I will site where it popped up from.

Thank you.

[Oxymoron]

Making the assumption that, because man was 'primitive', that they couldn't figure out massive multi-ton stones with primitive tech, is ludicrous! Aliens sure the fuck didn't do it in all the thousand instances they've discovered. That leaves only man's ingenuity. Occam's razor, right?

can you reply to a single argument i made?

How did they cut the stones with percision, second how did they move multi thousand ton stones, how did they not only moved them but positioned them where a razor cannot get through. Seriously stop saying stupid shit.

[Smilin' Dave]

Oxy, you can't really apply Occams razor when one of your 'options' doesn't actually have a full explanation. 'Mysterious technology' is just waving off the question, rather than answering it. I'm sure if you unpacked exactly how they got the tech, and it somehow hasn't survived to be found in the present day, it would not in fact be the simplest explanation.

[U184]

How did they cut the stones with percision, second how did they move multi thousand ton stones, how did they not only moved them but positioned them where a razor cannot get through.

Shaping the stones: The cut stone was done in large chunks with a hammer and large chisels, then smaller hammers and larger flatter chisels till they were close to flat. Then after all that, time wore the stone smooth.

Moving the stones: It is thought that a series of ramps and small leverage style rope swings were used to position the stones into place.


As for the razor, weight. The tremendous weight of the stone would have made a nice tight seal.

[Oxymoron]

Shaping the stones: The cut stone was done in large chunks with a hammer and large chisels, then smaller hammers and larger flatter chisels till they were close to flat. Then after all that, time wore the stone smooth

.


Are you serious? It would take them 60 years to cut that 2000 ton oblisk out. are you serious right now?

[Oxymoron]

that last picture is a joke, modern cranes can barely lift some of the stones. you are showing freaking ropes and wood? come on

when they moved the egyptian monuments recenetly they needed trucks, they needed to cut the stones into sections so that even the most powerful crane would be able to position them get real people

[U184]

According to Egyptian texts the Nile was used to move some stones, also there was a technique where they took several large logs and rolled the stones.

Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world.

The real problem would not have been the size of the crane, cranes just amplify the power of the operator and as long as the fulcrum was placed correctly, a leverage system should work. Cranes amplify the force of the operator, in this case the most obvious power to use, as an operating force, is many people. So a wheel crane may have been used. NOTICE> that the are many ropes behind the apparatus, this would help reinforce the integrity/strength of the central hoist, so even though it was made of wood and hardened by sap, it should have been enough.


Also it is unlikely that the crane would have been used to lift the entire weight of the stone. The large stone would be carved with a fulcrum, then teetered on to a large stone to prop or brace it. Then the crane would be used to lift the end a small way and other ropes to hold it at that level untill more and more stacking could be done. Eventually rasing the stone up.

Of course, no one knows for sure.


Here is an unfinished obelisk..as I said before, most of the time these objects were carved right out of the earth, from stones that probably already had a close shape to what was wanted.

Note how smooth the unworked stone to the right is.

In this one you can see the marks on the left from the knapping.

A sample of knapping in stone.

[Suska]

That is entirely credible in my opinion and more or less the picture I have of the matter. It's been impressed upon me that people have been working stone forever. For 99% of modern human's span of existence flint knapping was probably a skill that everyone had, at times it has been an artform. And cranes of wood and levers and maybe even some of Wally Wallington's tricks too. The Pyramid says one thing very loud; we are well organized.

[MB.]

The great pyramid of Giza were designed by a master architect and built over a period of about 20 years, why is this unbelievable will always be beyond me.

[Oxymoron]

Scope of work, resources and technology needed MB.


flint, that oblisk has space restrictions, meaning you cannot put a huge amount of stone workers at one time. Even if you could work 24 seven employing multiple shifts of skilled labor, it would take generations to complete that oblisk, not counting moving it.

[MB.]

You need to posit an antithesis here oxymoron. If the Egyptians didn't do this work who did and with what technology?

[Godstud]

Space aliens! They used anti-gravity beams!

[Oxymoron]

If the Egyptians didn't do this work who did and with what technology?

Most likely an earlier civilization the same one that built the sphinx which is dated to around the 10000 bce or so. Technology probably involved brown gas, and modern equivelent moving technology. this seems to have more evidence than copper tools,and a farm based economy, using the cream of its people who should be growing food to build supposedly pointless monuments taking decades, but if looked at more in detail one understands that the supposed methods used cannot account for most of the construction. To me the evidence points to an advanced civilization, that crumbled and left these monuments which later were mimiced or graffited to make it seem like the egyptians built them, for reverence. you can see later pyramids being much less advanced, and smaller then the earlier ones. Also the affiliation with the Giza pyramids to pharoahs is filled with archeological fraud by one prominent archeologist.

[Smilin' Dave]

Most likely an earlier civilization the same one that built the sphinx which is dated to around the 10000 bce or so. Technology probably involved brown gas, and modern equivelent moving technology. this seems to have more evidence than copper tools...

So what evidence is there for this earlier, more advanced, civilisation?

[Pants-of-dog]

How did they cut the stones with percision,

With harder stones. Carefully.

second how did they move multi thousand ton stones,

The largest big stone ever moved was 1,250 tons. Not several thousand tons as you claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_me ... _monoliths

how did they not only moved them but positioned them where a razor cannot get through.

Go get two heavy pieces of slate. Put one on top of the other. You will notice a razor blade can not get through it, even though they are completely uncarved. Many rocks make naturally smooth planes. It is not diffcult to cut smooth surfaces if you are very good at stone carving.

Are you serious? It would take them 60 years to cut that 2000 ton oblisk out. are you serious right now?

Please provide evidence for your claim.

[U184]

Sorry PoD, I have been swamped and will get that up as soon as I can.


Oxy I remember reading somewhere, (not sure where and have no time to check) that the average stone shaper could do 10 feet per month, with several hundred workers it would not take that much time at all.

I do remember that Nova did a thing a while back and 4 men did the sphinx nose... through this the figured out the man power needed, time, tools etc, to do the whole sphinx, they also figured out who had it commissioned and it was after the great pyramid. Also the smaller ones you refer to were done before the larger pyramids obviously there was a learning curve for construction.

Here is the paper describing the experiment for publication in Aerogram, an archeology magazine dedicated to the Giza Plateau Mapping Project. <and here is the full project in PDF form.

On a crisp fall day in October 2009, in Norwell, Massachusetts, Handshouse Studio and Egyptologist Mark Lehner began a project to replicate the colossal stone nose of the Great Sphinx of Giza. This project marked another joint effort between Handshouse's Rick and Laura Brown and Dr. Lehner to investigate a historical mystery of ancient Egypt. In the process, they and Providence Pictures have created a film on the Great Sphinx for WGBH's Nova to be broadcast January 2010.

It all began when Handshouse Studio was asked to bring together a team to carve a replica or scale model of the missing colossal stone nose of the Egyptian Sphinx. While no one truly knows what happened, the original Great Sphinx nose seems to have gone missing after someone pounded wedges that created deep groves down through the bridge of the nose and under the Sphinx's left nostril to snap it off to the left.

The model would be made at 65% scale using authentic carving tools like the ancient Egyptians would have used. The nose was scaled down from its original height of about 2.20 m (84”) to fit a large block of limestone about 75” inches high, delivered from Indiana to Handshouse Studio. As one of the foremost experts on the Great Sphinx and Giza Pyramids, Dr. Lehner would verify the authenticity of the tools and methods, as well as oversee carving of the nose. He produced the only known scale maps of the Great Sphinx, developed while he was Field Director of the Sphinx Project sponsored by the American Research Center in Egypt. Since 1988 he has been the Director of the Giza Plateau Mapping Project excavations south of the Great Sphinx, and he is currently Director of Ancient Egypt Research Associates (AERA).



Work for the film began with Rick Brown and Mass Art alum Jonathan Bechard demonstrating how to forge copper chisels and fabricate granite stone hammers lashed with leather straps to wooden handles. Rick Brown used authentic techniques to craft the stone hammers, hammerstones, and copper chisels, techniques similar to those the Great Sphinx builders used some 4,500 years ago. Mark, Rick, and Jonathan then employed these tools to start carving a hypothetical nose of the Great Sphinx. Stone hammers were used to rough out the nose, and copper chisels with wooden mallets were used for finish work.

After demonstrating how the Egyptian tools would have been used for the camera and in the interest of time, the team changed to contemporary tools to carve the modern Sphinx nose in just over two weeks.

In November, the Providence Pictures crew and Mark Lehner returned to Handshouse to complete the film and the experiment, and they were thrilled to see the finished nose. The carving demonstration compared time and labor using Old Kingdom Egyptian tools vs. contemporary tools, and determined how many man-hours were required to carve the full Great Sphinx using Egyptian tools. Mark Lehner, impressed by the calculations produced through the Handshouse Studio method of experimental archeology, requested Rick and Laura prepare a paper describing the experiment for publication in Aerogram, an archeology magazine dedicated to the Giza Plateau Mapping Project.

[Oxymoron]

So what evidence is there for this earlier, more advanced, civilisation?

Weather dating of sphinx.
geographic position of a titi kaka port in the mountains, which only touched the ocean ten thousand years ago or so.
Devolution of building techniques.
Ancient sea maps that show things that werent supposedly discovered till modern times
Astrology that rivals modern in terms of knowing about objects that cannot be detected by eye
ancient gold toys that have aerodynamic qualities and can actually fly.
common mythology of a lost paradise and flooding.
Some things, obviously are not solid proof but in archeology i dont think there is anything concrete including modern history.


flint, like I mentioned that oblisk can only have only so many workers at one time. I will try to locate the figures, but using a formula of man hours, abilities, and space of work a study found it would take years to cut it out, not even considering moving it.

pants show me something where humans moved thousand ton stones using simple techs.

[Takkon]

I will try to locate the figures, but using a formula of man hours, abilities, and space of work a study found it would take years to cut it out, not even considering moving it.

you don't trust direct archaeological evidence, but you trust some kind of thought experiment based on assumptions and estimations?

Oh brother.

[U184]

The above links gives the breakdown of man hours, etc. Also look at the size of that thing. Lets break it down simple stupid, (not you)

The unfinished obelisk in the northern quarries is about 1200tons and is 137 feet. According to the information it would have been the largest single stone monument ever constructed, but it developed a flaw which rendered it worthless.

At 137 ft 30 men could work at once, on one side. That gives them a 4ft workspace each. Should they be able to do their 4 feet in 1 month then it would take about 4 months for all 4 sides...*After further reading it shows it takes years though look below for the info.

The above obelisk would have been the compliment to this obelisk in Lateran.

Originally commissioned by Pharaoh Tuthmosis III, it was completed by his grandson, Tuthmosis IV. At 32.18 m (45.70 m including the base) it is the tallest obelisk in Rome and the largest standing ancient Egyptian obelisk in the world, weighing over 230 tons. Following the annexation of Egypt to the Empire, it was taken from the temple of Amun in Karnak[1] and brought to Alexandria with another obelisk by Constantius II. From there it was brought on its own to Rome in 357 to decorate the spina of the Circus Maximus. The dedication on the base however, gives the glory to Constantine I, not to his son who brought it to Rome.

So you can see that it was moved around a lot.

**This obelisk is about 105ft and 230 tons and was the tallest obelisk ever erected in Egypt. From what I read, the entire project took 35 years but would have only taken 9 had the man in charge not died. His grandson Tuthmosis IV, finished it after coming of age.



Here is how the Romans erected it in 357AD when it was taken to the Circus Maximus by Emperor Constantius II.

[Smilin' Dave]

Weather dating of sphinx.
geographic position of a titi kaka port in the mountains, which only touched the ocean ten thousand years ago or so.
Devolution of building techniques.
Ancient sea maps that show things that werent supposedly discovered till modern times
Astrology that rivals modern in terms of knowing about objects that cannot be detected by eye
ancient gold toys that have aerodynamic qualities and can actually fly.
common mythology of a lost paradise and flooding.
Some things, obviously are not solid proof but in archeology i dont think there is anything concrete including modern history.

All of these things are not evidence in themselves, you've simply taken things that you can't readily explain and decided that this proves there was a past advanced civilisation. Where is the actual archeological evidence of the past civilisation?