If Rome Had Not Accepted Christianity - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Rome, Greece, Egypt & other ancient history (c 4000 BCE - 476 CE) and pre-history.
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#15163114
noemon wrote:Newton wrote in Latin & Greek for many reasons.

1) They have historically been the languages of education, in Newton's time and well into the modern day you could(can actually but whatever) not call yourself educated unless you were(are) proficient in Greek & Latin, this has been true since Rome was still a village.
2) They have better structure and by using Greek & Latin he was publishing for a wider audience indeed.

Christianity is a major part of European and western civilisation indeed, whether it is necessary for western civilisation remains dubious.

I think it has become quite obvious that it's not that necessary and there is a big chance it will not be with us in the next century.


Christianity is the main reason Europe became dominant... main reason is that it emphasized the Jewish principle of living this life best way you can with a positive change after death. Prior to this Europe lived with almost no directive, meaning as long as you survive that is the end on to itself. Meaning no growth insentive.
#15163115
Oxymoron wrote:Christianity is the main reason Europe became dominant... main reason is that it emphasized the Jewish principle of living this life best way you can with a positive change after death. Prior to this Europe lived with almost no directive, meaning as long as you survive that is the end on to itself. Meaning no growth insentive.

So that's what inspired Alexander the Great to conquer the known world.... oh wait, it wasn't. Lol.
#15163117
Potemkin wrote:So that's what inspired Alexander the Great to conquer the known world.... oh wait, it wasn't. Lol.



It is different for Kings, potentially based on their religion a great hero could potentially become immortal. So military greatness was obviously encouraged.
But society in large could look forward to same faith no matter their life's achievements. I need to find the source of my argument, he made it much more clear. I know I am doing a disservice trying to explain this.
#15163118
Oxymoron wrote:Christianity is the main reason Europe became dominant... main reason is that it emphasized the Jewish principle of living this life best way you can with a positive change after death. Prior to this Europe lived with almost no directive, meaning as long as you survive that is the end on to itself. Meaning no growth insentive.


Christianity is an identity group like TERF, or intersectionalist, it was used with great effect by the Greco-Romans to consolidate the disparate barbarians into a single group during the Greco-Roman age of globalisation. It uses the "exploited" to rally the "exploited".

Ideologically, christianity offered very little(if anything at all) to the Greco-Romans and you can see that in Roman [family] law, before or after it remained unchanged. The Patriarchal values pre-existed christianity. Christianity has been moulded into a pre-existing cast and it represents a combination(syncretism) of the popular ideas that pre-existed her. Christian ideology and theology is a patchwork of the most popular cults and schools of thought that it replaced.

The next popular identity group to be used for consolidation in the new age of globalisation is doubtful it will be Abrahamic. Too much baggage. And think about it, do you see any modern identity group vying for supremacy in the public sphere as starting from christianity or islam or judaism?

It will be more like Somni-451.
#15163127
noemon wrote:Christianity is an identity group like TERF, or intersectionalist, it was used with great effect by the Greco-Romans to consolidate the disparate barbarians into a single group during the Greco-Roman age of globalisation. It uses the "exploited" to rally the "exploited".

Ideologically, christianity offered very little(if anything at all) to the Greco-Romans and you can see that in Roman [family] law, before or after it remained unchanged. The Patriarchal values pre-existed christianity.

The next popular identity group to be used for consolidation in the new age of globalisation is doubtful it will be Abrahamic. Too much baggage.

It will be more like Somni-451.

Exactly. Christianity was the ancient world's equivalent of Woke Culture. Seriously.
#15163133
noemon wrote:Newton wrote in Latin & Greek for many reasons.

1) They have historically been the languages of education, in Newton's time and well into the modern day you could(can actually but whatever) not call yourself educated unless you were(are) proficient in Greek & Latin, this has been true since Rome was still a village.
2) They have better structure and by using Greek & Latin he was publishing for a wider audience indeed.

Christianity is a major part of European and western civilisation indeed, whether it is necessary for western civilisation remains dubious.

I think it has become quite obvious that it's not that necessary and there is a big chance it will not be with us in the next century.


I do not disagree.

However, religion was needed at a time when mankind was less enlightened. There was also a need to explain the world when science was not advanced. Newton almost became a priest and he believed in alchemy despite his great intellect.

Religion also provided a cohesive force for many societies and likely was the glue for many tribes and groups of people.

Yes, religion with regards to the worship of deities is destined to disappear. The big question is what will replace religion. IN this era new pseudo-religions are appearing such as extreme PC culture where non conformists are severely punished or admonished.
#15163134
Potemkin wrote:Exactly. Christianity was the ancient world's equivalent of Woke Culture. Seriously.


:lol: :lol: :lol: never thought about them this way, but yeah same kind of cultish behavior.

In any case I prefer a Christian to an Athiest any day of the week(especially Thorsday).
#15163140
Julian658 wrote:I do not disagree.

However, religion was needed at a time when mankind was less enlightened. There was also a need to explain the world when science was not advanced. Newton almost became a priest and he believed in alchemy despite his great intellect.

Religion also provided a cohesive force for many societies and likely was the glue for many tribes and groups of people.


In the Greco-Roman world there were over 1000 cults and over 100 academies and schools of thought.

The creed and orthodoxy(in the purest sense not in the christian group sense) is what China is doing to consolidate its population.

It's a form of totalitarianism and mono-culture. Christianity openly calls itself 'the glue'.

Any identity can be used to achieve that and they are.

Yes, religion with regards to the worship of deities is destined to disappear. The big question is what will replace religion. IN this era new pseudo-religions are appearing such as extreme PC culture where non conformists are severely punished or admonished.


Never will they disappear they just change name and form.

People need more enlightening today than they did in the Roman Empire in the 3rd century CE. This world we live in today in the current cycle has been advanced for much less time than those people had been.

We will reach their equivalent level of secular & urban development in about 500-600 years from now(if we do not collapse in the process) and this does not change because of modernity & communications because the global population increases faster than that. There will always be more idiots than educated and the percentages between them on a global scale is not affected by technology certainly not positively which means it could take even longer to reach to the level(same kind of percentages between educated* & not) of the people during Constantine's time.

People assume that they live in a world that is morally/intellectually, psychologically and develop-mentally more advanced than it was in the year 330CE in the Roman Empire, but it's not true. Factually it isn't.

Think about this in your mind. It's a profound thing to understand.

Potemkin wrote:Exactly. Christianity was the ancient world's equivalent of Woke Culture. Seriously.


I know. Like truly I do.


*educated is not just about education but about situational memory and empiricism. Rather not just about gnosis but noesis.
#15163143
noemon wrote:
Your polemics are ridiculous. You cannot separate the 2 and secularism literally means religious tolerance, not intolerance.

1) Your brand of atheism is just another religion, not secularism. You are a religious atheist and have no difference whatsoever to a religious christian, jew, muslim, intersectionalist, buddhist. You are not secular in any way shape or form.


2) Without Greek and Latin Christian monks preserving and expanding on the scientific writings of the Greco-Roman world meticulously, there would be nothing today. There is no "eventually". There is simply nothing.

3) The Universities of Constantinople, Italy, Cambridge, Oxford, France which were founded by Christian monks did not just preserve Greco-Roman science, they expanded on it as well, without them, that thing you call 'science' does not exist at all, not even as a concept that you could potentially imagine.






1) Some things sum things up nicely. Kepler racing north often minutes ahead of christian mobs that wanted to kill him, does that, for me. This likely has a lot to do with where you live. The history of religious types attacking science, and scientists, never ended here. In the 1800s, they were killing geologists. I imagine you've heard of the Scopes trial. We're still struggling to keep science in public education texts. A big part of Trump's cult wants to roll back the clock. They want something like the Handmaids Tale (make women 2nd class citizens again, or less). In the 1980s they were blowing up medical clinics and killing docs and nurses. If the crazies get complete control, there would be religious persecution.

Another part of my observation is economic. As markets spread across Europe, they became the center of town, replacing the church. Neitzsche was, in part, talking about what he saw. Economics slowly replaced religion as the hub around which life revolved.

2) Actually, a lot of the classic texts were translated from Arabic manuscripts, by Jewish scholars, in Spanish courtyards. The Arab world had preserved a lot of them.

3) That's actually interesting, but I'm not familiar with that corner of history. We got a lot of math from those Arabic texts, and that was key during the Rennaisance. Have you ever heard of a historian named Braudel?

https://www.amazon.com/Civilization-Capitalism-15th-18th-Structures-Perspective/dp/B0013GA7EY/ref=sr_1_8?crid=33Q88PD5LMYJG&dchild=1&keywords=braudel+civilization+and+capitalism&qid=1616782482&sprefix=braudel%2Caps%2C370&sr=8-8
#15163146
late wrote:1) Some things sum things up nicely. Kepler racing north often minutes ahead of christian mobs that wanted to kill him, does that, for me.


All the people who are not secular(tolerant) and are instead pushing for an orthodox message want to exterminate their potential enemies, just like you want to get rid of christians because of these foreign grievances, whatever floats your boat.

Christians can be secular and have been, just like the woke can. It's a matter of choice.

2) Actually, a lot of the classic texts were translated from Arabic manuscripts, by Jewish scholars, in Spanish courtyards. The Arab world had preserved a lot of them.


It's true that Classical texts were studied by Muslims and Jews before and during the Muslim Golden Age, just like they are being studied today globally, it is not true that the old texts exist today because of them.

The Greco-Roman literature was preserved by the Roman Empire obviously and these texts were given to the Muslims and Jews from the University of Constantinople and its libraries.

But even if we assume that all Greek literature was preserved by Muslims and Jews, it still does not change the point as they are both religious groups and your argument was against religion in general.

So it fails regardless.

3) That's actually interesting, but I'm not familiar with that corner of history. We got a lot of math from those Arabic texts, and that was key during the Rennaisance. Have you ever heard of a historian named Braudel?

https://www.amazon.com/Civilization-Capitalism-15th-18th-Structures-Perspective/dp/B0013GA7EY/ref=sr_1_8?crid=33Q88PD5LMYJG&dchild=1&keywords=braudel+civilization+and+capitalism&qid=1616782482&sprefix=braudel%2Caps%2C370&sr=8-8


Muslims progressed Greek science, math, architecture, very much like the British, Americans, Germans and French are advancing it today, when we say we stand on the shoulders of giants, Muslim people are part of that ladder.
#15163151
noemon wrote:
1) All the people who are not secular(tolerant) and are instead pushing for an orthodox message want to exterminate their potential enemies, just like you want to get rid of christians because of these foreign grievances, whatever floats your boat.


2) But even if we assume that all Greek literature was preserved by Muslims and Jews, it still does not change the point as they are both religious groups and your argument was against religion in general.

3) So it fails regardless.



Muslims progressed Greek science, math, architecture, very much like the British, Americans, Germans and French are advancing it today, when we say we stand on the shoulders of giants, Muslim people are part of that ladder.



1) You're wrong. My wife, and nearly everyone I know, is Christian. What you're missing is that we still have a bit of the Dark Ages running around. Did you know the religious group in the Reagan White House wanted to let AIDS kill unopposed? They thought it was a deity's punishment of gays. I try to tell people my country is crazed. Sometimes it takes a while to sink in. Do you know how many openly atheists people there are in Congress? You could count them all on your fingers after your arms were amputated. We're not like Europe that way, wish we were.

2) My interest in history is the slow crawl towards the Modern era. The way I look at it, the early capitalism that funded the arts and sciences in the Renaissance was the result of the business acumen of the bankers. When the Church tried to tax business heavily, they fled to other countries.

3) We should prob agree to disagree, to me, this is absurd. The Modern world happened despite religion, not because of it.
#15163155
late wrote:1) You're wrong. My wife, and nearly everyone I know, is Christian. What you're missing is that we still have a bit of the Dark Ages running around. Did you know the religious group in the Reagan White House wanted to let AIDS kill unopposed? They thought it was a deity's punishment of gays. I try to tell people my country is crazed. Sometimes it takes a while to sink in. Do you know how many openly atheists people there are in Congress? You could count them all on your fingers after your arms were amputated. We're not like Europe that way, wish we were.



That is precisely what I am telling you.

2) My interest in history is the slow crawl towards the Modern era. The way I look at it, the early capitalism that funded the arts and sciences in the Renaissance was the result of the business acumen of the bankers. When the Church tried to tax business heavily, they fled to other countries.


Your surface interpretation of history is wrong. We live in cycles, we have only been modern & 'advanced' for 3-4 decades perhaps more depending where you are but no more than 1 century, they had been for 7 centuries at least.

3) We should prob agree to disagree, to me, this is absurd. The Modern world happened despite religion, not because of it.


You need more depth in your history.
#15163158
noemon wrote:In the Greco-Roman world there were over 1000 cults and over 100 academies and schools of thought.

The creed and orthodoxy(in the purest sense not in the christian group sense) is what China is doing to consolidate its population.

It's a form of totalitarianism and mono-culture. Christianity openly calls itself 'the glue'.

Any identity can be used to achieve that and they are.



Never will they disappear they just change name and form.

People need more enlightening today than they did in the Roman Empire in the 3rd century CE. This world we live in today in the current cycle has been advanced for much less time than those people had been.

We will reach their equivalent level of secular & urban development in about 500-600 years from now(if we do not collapse in the process) and this does not change because of modernity & communications because the global population increases faster than that. There will always be more idiots than educated and the percentages between them on a global scale is not affected by technology certainly not positively which means it could take even longer to reach to the level(same kind of percentages between educated* & not) of the people during Constantine's time.

People assume that they live in a world that is morally/intellectually, psychologically and develop-mentally more advanced than it was in the year 330CE in the Roman Empire, but it's not true. Factually it isn't.

Think about this in your mind. It's a profound thing to understand.



I know. Like truly I do.


*educated is not just about education but about situational memory and empiricism.


It is a fascinating topic and I once again agree with you.

Christianity was one among many other religions or cults, however Christianity offered something a bit different. The idea of turning the other cheek, humility, and even charity. The early Christians turn into the ascetic life style and renounce all worldly possessions. Ten centuries later Christianity became one of the most corrupt institutions in world history. Ha, ha, what else is new. We will continue to see corruption for a long time to come with the new coming secular pseudo-religions.

What many fail to see is that we evolved in tribes and tribalism lives in all of us. We get along fine when times are good, but in times of scarcity we become tribal. And tribalism is the mother of all "isms".

What was the glue that held the Greeks together? Culture? What held the Romans together? Was it fatal to assimilate other religions? Why did Christianity become the main religion after the conversion of Constantine?
#15163160
noemon wrote:
You need more depth in your history.



As I mentioned before, try some economic analysis of history, I mentioned Braudel, but there are many others. And as I pointed out before, I find your interpretation absurd.

I may have been onto something when I implied were we live has something to do with our disagreement. My position is nothing special here. I've read works by historians from other countries, and sometimes I wonder if they are really talking about the same thing.

I could easily write a book about how the church tried to hold onto power, there is a lot there. As I said, the long slow crawl towards the Modern. You seem to be saying it popped out like a stripper popping out of a cake. That's kinda awesome, but not at all the way I see it.
#15163177
Julian658 wrote:Christianity was one among many other religions or cults, however Christianity offered something a bit different.


It was the first franchisable priesthood. The other cults did not permit franchises.

What was the glue that held the Greeks together? Culture? What held the Romans together? Was it fatal to assimilate other religions? Why did Christianity become the main religion after the conversion of Constantine?


Culture, education, law, citizenship, same things that hold Americans together today.
#15163183
noemon wrote:It was the first franchisable priesthood. The other cults did not permit franchises.


Yes, that sort of thing is powerful BTW, there are rarities about catholicism. Imagine being a gay man in the medieval times when everyone in the entire world expected men to marry and have a dozen children. At that era there was no other option. Join the priesthood! What better way of looking good in front of the family with high expectations. In fact, having a member of the family in the Church was seen as prestige and a good way to obtain an education.



Culture, education, law, citizenship, same things that hold Americans together today.


I would say America was much more American in the 1940s. Today most Americans see America as a disappointment. That is dangerous as it could lead to the dissolution of the nation.
#15207121
When the Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate became Emperor, he "persecuted" Christianity by banning Christians from teaching classical Greek literature to pupils. This was so hurtful to Christians in terms of revenue and prestige that they arranged for his murder.

Classical Greek education formed the entirety rather than simply the basis of elementary, secondary and tertiary education throughout the entire duration of the Roman Empire(both east and west, pre and post Christianity).

Julian himself had been introduced & taught Greek literature by Eusebius, a Christian priest. First irony.

Second irony is that Julian was criticized by his "pagan" mates more than he was criticized by the Christians for his policies and behaviour.

Pop fiction claims that Justinian ordered the closure of the schools of Athens, but history proves that no such order ever took place and that the schools moved to Constantinople due to a lack of pupils.

But why did these schools lose their appeal to pupils? The plague certainly played a part, Constantinople overtaking Athens certainly played another part, but in my view the larger part was played because several of these schools had discredited themselves, either because they had become so saturated(or woke if you prefer) that they had attempted to discredit their original founders, Plato & Aristotle. Several people did not take kindly on novel approaches to Plato, others criticized some desperate attempts to compete with the Christians and other conjurers in magic & entertainment, .ie witchcraft. When most of the educated Greeks preferred to teach the classics from the Church instead of the School, the Schools became hollow. More serious philosophy was being pumped out by the Church than by the Schools. Aristotle became Jesus(or in some cases even more than Jesus) for the West and Plato became Jesus for the East. The Church was more protective of their original classical legacy than the Schools themselves who had tried every possible novelty to stay relevant. For a lot of intellectuals what they conceived as the traditional legacy of classical Greece was better served this way than by starting yet another new religion*.

British classicists of the 18th century could not swallow this pill because they were dealing with a different kind of Church than 6th CE Greece and they went at great lengths to hide this under the carpet, of course they were joined by atheists for whom the argument of Christian "genocide" of classical education became a rallying cry and too potent to abandon.

Christianity would not exist without Classical literature. Roman law, Christian ritual and Classical literature were packaged in a 3 in 1, civilizational deal for conversion.
#15207131
noemon wrote:It was the first franchisable priesthood. The other cults did not permit franchises.



Culture, education, law, citizenship, same things that hold Americans together today.


I wouldn't say that Christianity was whole, it kinda ignores monothesites for example and the problems that caused after Nicea and Chalcedon. There were others also.

Jews were pretty franchiseable also. They just didn't want to live in peace with the Roman Empire and Hadrian went berserk on them. (They did deserve it though considering the historic accounts that they were okay with genociding everyone besides themselves)
#15207144
noemon wrote:But why did these schools lose their appeal to pupils? The plague certainly played a part, Constantinople overtaking Athens certainly played another part, but in my view the larger part was played because several of these schools had discredited themselves, either because they had become so saturated(or woke if you prefer) that they had attempted to discredit their original founders, Plato & Aristotle. Several people did not take kindly on novel approaches to Plato, others criticized some desperate attempts to compete with the Christians and other conjurers in magic & entertainment, .ie witchcraft. When most of the educated Greeks preferred to teach the classics from the Church instead of the School, the Schools became hollow. More serious philosophy was being pumped out by the Church than by the Schools. Aristotle became Jesus(or in some cases even more than Jesus) for the West and Plato became Jesus for the East. The Church was more protective of their original classical legacy than the Schools themselves who had tried every possible novelty to stay relevant. For a lot of intellectuals what they conceived as the traditional legacy of classical Greece was better served this way than by starting yet another new religion*.


*They had started several new religions to try and globalize across the domain, Serapis being one of the most famous and eventually joined Buddhism & Christianity en mass. It is recorded in Buddhist literature that 40,000 Greek Buddhist monks were led to Sri Lanka from Alexandria in Afghanistan by a Greek Teacher of Buddha to dedicate a major temple there at 130 BCE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bud ... _Stupa.jpg

Image

A lot more interesting stuff are recoded here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism

From the direct influence on Buddhist art, to the Chinese terracota army, to the Japanese guardians outside Shinto temples.
#15207147
Oxymoron wrote:Christianity is the main reason Europe became dominant... main reason is that it emphasized the Jewish principle of living this life best way you can with a positive change after death. Prior to this Europe lived with almost no directive, meaning as long as you survive that is the end on to itself. Meaning no growth insentive.


The Greeks & Romans prior to this were generally inclined to belief in reincarnation. They were also inclined to believe that there were sacred principles involved in living. But I think it is very hard to characterize what was believed because we are talking about a very long period of time and a lot of diversity and sometimes even outright secrecy surrounding the beliefs. We also get a lot of what we know tainted through the degeneration of these things -- you know, Julian the Apostate was not even really able to make a sensible, singular Pagan religion to replace the Hellenic paganism that came before because by this point the Hellenistic pagan world was so infected with other cults and creeds that it would be difficult to reconstruct it, let alone animate it, I think.

It is even more difficult to try to characterize what Norse pagans actually thought because so much of what we know about them was just legends recorded by a Christian who was enthusiastic about looking back into the past (I am describing the Edda). It is even more difficult to really know what was meant by various forms of Slavic paganism. Yes, plenty of charlatans claim that they have the missing link to the past and they like to pretend that Chrsitianity is a little brother to their reconstructed paganism, rodnovary is likely nostalgic garbage that probably has more influence from Soviet anthropologists in it than it does authentic paganism.

But I think you are moving in the right direction. Christianity really brought a whole new way to view the Other.

Noemon wrote:Christianity would not exist without Classical literature. Roman law, Christian ritual and Classical literature were packaged in a 3 in 1, civilizational deal for conversion.


It is the case that Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, these great titans of thought & their gang, are very vital in how we understand the world, and were definitely willed by God. I think the Greek language and the philosophies that it has are part of God's plan for Christianity. I think I have even heard this referred to as 'the second Old Testament.' So, I a very, very sympathetic to this idea. I think it is right...

But, as a believing Christian, I would say that Christianity is the superior to the classics, and that the classics existed because they are part of the plan that God has for Christianity.

But yeah, I really fully believe that the European civilization is centered around Christianity, the Greco-Roman civilization(s), and local tradition.

A Norwegian, a Portuguese, an Irishman, and a Russian are all quite different -- they have different languages, very different local culture, even different brands of Christianity and different ways in which Greco-Roman civilization is interpreted and influenced their local communities... But, they are all very similar to each other because of the fact that they are Christianized & Greco-Romanized people.

The Norse became Norwegians, the Celtiberians became their local cultural groups, the Slavs became Russians, the Gaelic tribes became Irish because they were changed by Christianity & Greco-Roman ideas and civilization that came naturally as a part of it.

A package deal is a great way to describe it.

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