The legendary Jingū tennō and her invasion against Korea - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Rome, Greece, Egypt & other ancient history (c 4000 BCE - 476 CE) and pre-history.
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#14281258
Yet certain 'facts' contradict with each other! I don't doubt that she, the person, existed. I doubt that all those heroic deeds were indeed done by her. Now why were royal Korean members sent to Japan? Uh, their country had collapsed and they had nowhere to go except one of their cultural inferior fellow countries? Why do you think they were hostages when they could also have been interwined as equal families?

I really don't think basing pride on your country from history too far back is a good thing, and in that term I agree with fuser. Too many facts are distorted just to make the race feel good about domination, etc. Those things should stay in the past.
#14281269
You don´t understand diplomacy in that time. Hostages were exchanged from the occupied Kingdom to secure the ruling hegemon that he has nothing to fear.

Now imagine Empress Jingū invaded Korea. The local king surrendered. Empress Jingū did not push him aside but let him in charge over Korea. After 3 years the Empress and her army left back to Japan. How could she assure that Korea would stay under control? The Korean King had to send close family members with her as hostages. Some of those hostages became very prominent in Japan themself.

Fact is, that Empress Jingū and the ones direct before her and after her like her grandson emperor Nintoku were incredible powerful rulers. Their tombs are simply colossal. Far bigger than anything else on earth. Bigegr than the pyramides of Egypt and larger than teh tomb of the first chinese emperor. Those Kofun tombs show that those Emperors and Empress did indeed ruled with great power:

Image

The thing is, that the imperial household banns all scientific research on it. Nobody is allowed to enter. Those tombs include most likely the most important scources for east asian history. We only know the chinese side. Imagine we could know the perspective of the other old empire. It could not just change the way we understand history but also our relationship towards Korea. There are forces in Japan who do not want that those tombs get opened. And they are very influential. Our Tennō Heika made some comments regarding possible korean blood in our imperial family. Evryone knows that statement dates back to Jingū tennō. Some scources say her son Ōjin tennō was bron after she came back from Korea. It is possible his father was a korean. Some very conservative people in Japan don´t like that idea and because of that the tombs are locked and banned. I´m very conservative myself but i believe thats not a bad thing to know the truth and it would improve relations towards Korea because it would show how much we share.
#14281274
You know? Let me get back to you later. It's really interesting, because I've heard of a lot of Japanese interventions in history, but this particular story's a first. Let me do some reading before I reply to you. Plus, it'll take time to translate some stuff, but be patient ok? I think you are pretty intelligent and a good example on how japanese conservatives think on the other side of the "east sea", so I won't be missing you.
#14281360
yellowscientist, it will be under the > Invasion of 'Corea'.

I do not have the time to delve into this at them moment, however I have came across, her, her husbands and sons names while doing historical research.

What I do have in my files is: Jingu Kogo Empress reigned from 201 to 269 A.d, wife of the mikado Chinai, I have his minister listed as being 'Takdnouchi'.

I have her real name as being Sin 'Gou Kwo Gou' or 'Singon Kwo go'n (depending on the source) and that Jingu is what she was called due to her actions in battle.

Chinai died in the war with Kiusiu, 'Corea' allied with Kiusiu and is the reason that she attacked.

I have the name associated with: Zheng, Huang Guigu of China. The names are listed as both comparative study and linked by way of historical incidents.

I have her son as 'Osin tenno'. It looks like Corea continued tribute to him, from this it looks like he imported the working of silk and several new breeds of horse from them.



If I was going to go deep into this, and again I do not have the time to do so, I would look into historical connections with the kingdoms of Văn Lang, Zhou and in particular Lu. It might be a rather large stretch but you could also look for connections in Kush.

I will check back in as I can and lend a hand as I am able.
Last edited by U184 on 31 Jul 2013 10:01, edited 1 time in total.
#14281519
Akuma wrote: No problem. I´m interested about your opinion.


Before I state evidence to support my suspicions, I would like to ask a few questions to validate what your position on the matter is.
As I said before, I do agree that Jinu and Himiko probably existed, but highly doubt that what they did was also true.
I'm pretty sure a lot of your claims(the claims on Japanese control over Korea at that time, not the part on the tombs) are not what the historical academia's saying these days, whether it be Korean, Chinese, or Japanese.
Any way, could you state what you've been taught on the issue on Japanese control over Korea way back then? The historical facts that back you up on the claim, what Chinese source and etc.
You should be aware that there are various claims on what actually happened in ancient history.
Especially since it has been used again and again to support propaganda on legitimizing Asian colonization.

Also, does this knowledge originate from your personal interests, therefore your own personal research, or is the legend of Jingu embedded in Japan's education system via textbook?
Just curious if the entire Japanese populace also believes in this.

KFlint wrote:yellowscientist, it will be under the > Invasion of 'Corea' or 'Dai Nippon' depending on how far back you go.


I really do appreciate your help, but if you search in english, you'll find most sources from Japan(again, respect for making their sources look way more legit).
I'm looking into it in Korean and have found many sources(some from Japan itself) to fuel my doubt on the story, but thanks anyway.

The last part I really can't quite understand. What I highly doubt about Akuma's story is the part where Japan had influence over Korea. The reason why I was so flabbergasted then amused over this was because I had never even heard of it. Yeah, I do acknowledge Japan having war starting at 1592, but back in the 2nd century? No. What does those Southern Asian countries and a country in Egypt even have to do with the issue at hand?
#14281538
Allow me to ask you some questions before i go deeper into this. I know questions should not be responded with questions but i want to know your motivations.

1. You said you believe that Himiko and Jingū tennō existed. What power did they have in your opinion? And how did those two Empress rose o such a legendary status not only in Japan but also in China?

2. There is diplomatic exchange known between China and Himiko. The chinese emperor did send her gifts and a delegation and she returned gifts to him. So far the facts.

3. If you believe they had not the power to conquer Korea why do you think they had the power to build the biggest tombs in mankinds history? The Kofun Tombs dwarf evrything mankind ever build. Only the great wall surpass them. The great pyramide of Giza and the tomb of the first emperor of China Qin Shin Huang fit into the Kofun tomb combined!
Image

Wouldn´t that been to much effort for something you may see as simple shamanic priestess queen?

4. Why do you doubt we could have conquered Korea? We did that very often. Kōgyoku-tennō (surprisingly another women) occupied parts of Korea in 662. Yūryaku-tennō also did lead wars against Korea.

It is a proven fact that Japan in that time had great influence over Korea. Baekje was allied with Japan and under control. Baekje did send hostages to Japan.

Problem is, as i said before that all tombs are closed for research. The tomb of Empress Jingū is the most important one. In 1976 archeologists found korean artefacts there. Korean legends say that emperor Ōjin is the son of a korean prince and Empress Jingū. Super nationalistic people in Japan dismiss that as insult. As soon some korean artefacts were discovered in Empress Jingū tomb the imperial household stopped all research and denied acess to it.

I assume you are from China? I guess it is hard for you to accept that there is an equal empire right next to you. An empire that did not fall under chinese rule. I know that Japan was always a thorn in the eye of sinocentristic worldview of China.

I would like to close that post with the words from Shōtoku Taishi, son of Empress Suiko. He wrote in a letter to China in the year 607: ""From the sovereign of the land of the rising sun (Japan) to the sovereign of the land of the setting sun (China)."
#14281551
Akuma wrote:1. You said you believe that Himiko and Jingū tennō existed. What power did they have in your opinion? And how did those two Empress rose o such a legendary status not only in Japan but also in China?

I will answer once I have your anwsers. Regarding China, really? Do you think China regards her "legendary" too?

Akuma wrote:2. There is diplomatic exchange known between China and Himiko. The chinese emperor did send her gifts and a delegation and she returned gifts to him. So far the facts.

Nope. No facts were shown.
Please note that I would rather have you to prove why these are facts.
It can't be that hard, just quote what passage from which book says this is true or what historical evidence provides to be so.
Then I will provide different claims from the same evidence.

Akuma wrote:3. If you believe they had not the power to conquer Korea why do you think they had the power to build the biggest tombs in mankinds history? The Kofun Tombs dwarf evrything mankind ever build. Only the great wall surpass them. The great pyramide of Giza and the tomb of the first emperor of China Qin Shin Huang fit into the Kofun tomb combined!
Wouldn´t that been to much effort for something you may see as simple shamanic priestess queen?

Japan's not even sure whose tombs they belong to. What does it prove?
And yet, you say they can't undergo any research.
Claims with no evidence are weak claims.

Akuma wrote:4. Why do you doubt we could have conquered Korea? We did that very often. Kōgyoku-tennō (surprisingly another women) occupied parts of Korea in 662. Yūryaku-tennō also did lead wars against Korea.
It is a proven fact that Japan in that time had great influence over Korea. Baekje was allied with Japan and under control. Baekje did send hostages to Japan.

Please do not over generalize.
I could claim that Baekje allied with Japan, but had Japan under its control by sending its royalty overseas, but you would claim otherwise.
You assume that because Baekje sent their royalty to Japan, Baekje was inferior to Japan, but I assume otherwise.

Therefore, it is not a proven fact. If it is, please provide sources.
Ancient history has few "proven" facts, a lot of different claims rise from the same evidence.
That's why I asked you whether this proven fact is taught at school Akuma.
To understand the extent in which Japan distorts history the way they want it to be.

Akuma wrote:Problem is, as i said before that all tombs are closed for research. The tomb of Empress Jingū is the most important one. In 1976 archeologists found korean artefacts there. Korean legends say that emperor Ōjin is the son of a korean prince and Empress Jingū. Super nationalistic people in Japan dismiss that as insult. As soon some korean artefacts were discovered in Empress Jingū tomb the imperial household stopped all research and denied acess to it.

Problem is you don't even provide evidence in the first place. Why worry about evidence you can't provide?
You should be able to provide facts without refering thin air and saying the rest is sadly lying under the tombs.

Akuma wrote:I assume you are from China? I guess it is hard for you to accept that there is an equal empire right next to you. An empire that did not fall under chinese rule. I know that Japan was always a thorn in the eye of sinocentristic worldview of China.

I would like to close that post with the words from Shōtoku Taishi, son of Empress Suiko. He wrote in a letter to China in the year 607: ""From the sovereign of the land of the rising sun (Japan) to the sovereign of the land of the setting sun (China)."

I am not from China. So I don't care for your racial remarks. Please try not to go off topic.

Let me say it once more.

yellowscientist wrote:I'm pretty sure a lot of your claims(the claims on Japanese control over Korea at that time, not the part on the tombs) are not what the historical academia's saying these days, whether it be Korean, Chinese, or Japanese.
Any way, could you state what you've been taught on the issue on Japanese control over Korea way back then? The historical facts that back you up on the claim, what Chinese source and etc.
You should be aware that there are various claims on what actually happened in ancient history.
Especially since it has been used again and again to support propaganda on legitimizing Asian colonization.

Assume that you are wrong for once, forget about the tombs since you don't evne know whom they belong to in the first place.

Does 'all' the historical evidence support your claims? No.

Are you aware of the extent of Japanese colonialism during its imperalist era? I do not believe you do.

Are you aware on that the Japanese distorted history to legitimize their war? Again no.

Are you aware that Eastern Asian history is in a pile of mess thanks to Japan, in which Ancient history is worst, and is still being debated what truly happened? I highly doubt this to be yes too.

Are you aware that even Japanese historicans are deserting your assumptions? Maybe yes, but also critizing those with the slighest conscience as academic researchers as the nation's enemies.

From all the contradicting evidence from your claims(which I will point out personally if you at the least be kind enough to supply them), I care less on how ancient history happened.

Why I stumbled onto replying to this thread is because just from a glance, I was able to see that this is what makes the Japanese people think themselves superior, which I think is bullshit.
The genetic differences from different races of humans are too insignificant to say that this is true. If you are going to refer to culture, please read "Guns, Germs, and Steel".

If this was taught at school, do yourself a favor and open your eyes to see what really happened.

Assume something was wrong, because a Korean was taught exactly the opposite of what you learned.

Listen to what the opposition has to say to your claims, and see if they fall in logical order.

Then, by seeing that there is little consensus in ancient history, disregard it being a basis to the feeling of racial superiority.

Why I want to point out your legend has a bunch of lies in it?

Because I believe that Eastern Asia will have to have to join hands in the future to take on the EU and the US.

I also believe that it will not help if you have your eyes fixed onto a distorted past.

It will not help if Japan's Vice Prime Minister starts refering the Nazis.

It also will not help by denying all the astrocities Japan did.

Start out with picking out the truthes from the lies. Then we will start talking peace from the truthes as well.
#14281568
yellowscientist, why so hostile in your last response to Akuma?


I really do appreciate your help, but if you search in english, you'll find most sources from Japan.
I do rather a lot of historical research and I am always happy to help when I can.

I do search in English, but I also follow source material from all language groups, including dead ones. I do not follow any single source and always look for corroboration.

I'm looking into it in Korean and have found many sources(some from Japan itself) to fuel my doubt on the story, but thanks anyway.
I am not looking into the story from any angle, I neither have doubt, nor belief, I just follow historical trails to the best of my ability, regardless of the outcome.

What I highly doubt about Akuma's story is the part where Japan had influence over Korea. The reason why I was so flabbergasted then amused over this was because I had never even heard of it.
I understand. Many cultures are unaware of ancient history, others would rather have the histories be false, or true. I however do not take sides.

I have noticed that I can source information, find documents and third party accounts of civilization as far back as the 6th millennium BC. Even before that, but one must work much harder and information is rather scant.

My point here is that, I find it odd that 3rd century A.D. would be considered 'beyond recorded time', because I can follow up that time period with little problems.

Yeah, I do acknowledge Japan having war starting at 1592, but back in the 2nd century?
So long ago that the very fact, an unpleasant one at that, would have passed away from memory.

The last part I really can't quite understand.
What does those Southern Asian countries and a country in Egypt even have to do with the issue at hand?
Ah well, it has all been leading up to this question.

It comes down to corroboration and the location of the countries is less important than the time frame at hand.

Those countries were kingdoms, kingdoms that were active in the time frame that Jingū lived. That being the case, those kingdoms would have traded with other kingdoms in the same time frame, so information would be readily available. Even if the kingdoms listed had not traded with Japan or Korea, they would have traded with others that had.

This is how one corroborates historical accounts. Follow informational sources, find all records available, including records from other kingdoms. Such records are kept over wars, trades, migrations, etc.

Sometimes even simple things, like a drought being recorded by kingdoms that did not have any contact, but shared a basic geographic location and lived during the same time frame.

Sorry for the long response, the short one of course is that those countries were around at the correct time in history. That being the case, one should be able to ascertain if any of them had contact with China, Koera or Japan.

They may have been trading partners, enemies or allies. They may have records where other kingdoms mention China, Korea or Japan as trading partners, enemies or allies...etc.

Not to long ago I spoke with a person from Korea, who had no idea that Japan had occupied Korea in modern times. It is not uncommon for some countries to rewrite history as they want it to be, or to destroy it and write a new history altogether.


You said,
I do acknowledge Japan having war starting at 1592, but back in the 2nd century?


I do not find that hard to believe at all.

It is only about 80 miles from Japan to South Korea when going from island, to island, across the sea.

It is 18 miles from the main land of Japan to Iki Island, then 30 miles for Iki Island to Tsushima Island and just another 30 miles from there to the next closest land mass near South Korea.

In fact, I would find it odd if these areas did not have contact in the 2nd century and even way before that.

Image


No matter how one looks at the historical aspect, one must realize that the truth to the history of the area is one that connects China, Korea and Japan.

All share a common history, are in close proximity and all three want to have their own separate, identities as nations. The truth is more complex and all three nations have a shared history, one of war, battles, trades, etc.

Ignoring that will not help anyone.

I might have some free time where I could look into this and I will when I can.

However, being closed of mind, set in ones ways and holding the assumption that only 'your history' is the 'real history', will get you nowhere.
Last edited by U184 on 31 Jul 2013 13:29, edited 1 time in total.

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