The legendary Jingū tennō and her invasion against Korea - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Rome, Greece, Egypt & other ancient history (c 4000 BCE - 476 CE) and pre-history.
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#14281781
I think it is sad, that "yellowscientist" destroyed a constructive and intelligent debate with his sudden outburst of sinocentric rants. He first says he wants an interesting debte and then not only insults Japan, belittles our great ancestors and myself. Your own history and ancestors may be meaningless. But in Japan we hold highest respect on them. Empress Jingū and Himiko and all others are not just former rulers of our nation. They are Kami. They guard and guide Japan. They formed Japan and they formed me. My life and evrything i know is based on decissions they made. Japan now is the result of their thinking, their combined achievement. It is the product of a process that spanned over many thousand years. Evry japanese participated in it in history. Some had small influence like a local farmer. Some forged great parts of it like Empress Jingū or Oda Nobunaga. I and all Japanese have greatest respect for them. It is something you may never understand. It is not just religious or traditions it fills Japan down to our pop culture.

You can buy T shirts here which are printed with famous persons of our history:

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#14281791
I love doing historical research. When one looks at all the various perspectives, one begins to see the people portrayed as real living, breathing individuals. I do not think that it would be very hard to find out the actual historical details regarding Jingu.

I find the whole process very intriguing and enjoyable. If I were going to look into this it would mean looking at all the varied information, kingdoms, politics and interactions of China, Korea and Japan from say, 0 to 300BC. That should give you a wide range of knowledge and also allow you to understand not just the Japanese aspect, but the geographical region as a whole.

Please let me know how deep you plan on going, as I do not really have time to devote to this, even in my spare time, for someone who does not really care and would not appreciate it anyway.
#14281823
Akuma wrote:The thing is, that the imperial household banns all scientific research on it. Nobody is allowed to enter. Those tombs include most likely the most important scources for east asian history.

Um you might find this interesting then.
This month a group of 16 experts led by the Japanese Archaeological Association released results from their February visit inside Gosashi tomb.The event marked the first time that scholars had been allowed inside a royal tomb outside of an official excavation led by Japan's Imperial Household Agency.

Archaeologists have been requesting access to Gosashi tomb and other imperial sites since 1976, in part because the tombs date to the founding of a central Japanese state under imperial rule.But the agency has kept access to the tombs restricted, prompting rumors that officials fear excavation would reveal bloodline links between the "pure" imperial family and Korea—or that some tombs hold no royal remains at all.

Gosashi tomb in western Japan's Nara Prefecture is revered as the resting place of Empress Jingu, the semi-legendary wife of the country's 14th emperor.

Jingu is thought to have ruled as regent for her son starting around A.D. 200. During their two-and-a-half-hour visit, the team was allowed to explore the lower part of the 886-foot-long (270-meter-long) burial mound.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080428-ancient-tomb.html
Perhaps Jingu Tenno was the daughter of Korean and Japanese royalty coming to assert her birthright and form a joint kingdom.
Last edited by Americanroyalty on 31 Jul 2013 21:29, edited 1 time in total.
#14281825
KFlint wrote:I love doing historical research. When one looks at all the various perspectives, one begins to see the people portrayed as real living, breathing individuals. I do not think that it would be very hard to find out the actual historical details regarding Jingu.

I find the whole process very intriguing and enjoyable. If I were going to look into this it would mean looking at all the varied information, kingdoms, politics and interactions of China, Korea and Japan from say, 0 to 300BC. That should give you a wide range of knowledge and also allow you to understand not just the Japanese aspect, but the geographical region as a whole.

Please let me know how deep you plan on going, as I do not really have time to devote to this, even in my spare time, for someone who does not really care and would not appreciate it anyway.



Thank you very much. I would like to know what you found out. But please don´t waste your time with me. So just do what you find enough and as long it enjoys yourself.
#14281827
Americanroyalty wrote:Perhaps Jingu Tenno was the daughter of Korean and Japanese royalty coming to assert her birthright and form a joint kingdom.



Oh i know that article. Unfortunately they were only allowed to walk outside on it and to look at the lower entrance area. But at least it was a beginning. They did found some korean artifacts. I also believe Empress Jingū has some ties to Korea. She was pure japanese by historians but there are legends who say her son was half japanese and half korean.
#14281838
Akuma wrote:Oh i know that article. Unfortunately they were only allowed to walk outside on it and to look at the lower entrance area. But at least it was a beginning.
Yea I didn't quote it but in the article it was stated that absolutely no excavation was allowed. So basically they went on a guided tour of a small portion of the tomb complex and were not allowed to to take anything for analysis. A start yes but without any serious archeology no answers will ever be provided.
Akuma wrote:They did found some korean artifacts.
So it was them, the article was not clear on who actually found those artifacts. Though it's hard to know what significance they have as the artifacts could be anything from prizes of war to gifts given by a Korean ally.
Akuma wrote:I also believe Empress Jingū has some ties to Korea. She was pure japanese by historians but there are legends who say her son was half japanese and half korean.
This wouldn't surprise me at all. As an active monarch (unlike the later japanese emperors) she would likely have to do whatever it would take to secure her kingdom. A Korean consort would give her useful allies and her son being half Korean isn't much of a problem. Royalty is royalty no matter were they come from (though a big army helps guarantee people will treat you like royalty).
#14281841
That is true. It should also be mentioned that the japanese empire was not that old as she ruled. It was a young nation just formed few generations before her. Her husband the emperor died at young age. She was then the ruler of Japan. Thats a dangerous situation. Put yourself into her position. Many could question her strength, authority and claim the throne for themself. She could stop internal struggle with her invasion into Korea. No matter how big that operation was. When you have a outside enemy you have peace at home. According to the legends her invasion started only weeks after her coronation. That makes sense. After that she had the problem that no matter which japanese noble men she marries, it would create turmoil in Japan between the clans and reduce her position. It is reported she brought korean hostages from the royal family with her...one of those was a famous korean prince who was very honored in Japan and is so till today. After her return from Korea she gave birth to her son Ōjin tennō. It says he is the son of her and her deceased husband Chūai tennō. But as i said Chūai tennō died three years before that. It was propably a story to show a clear line between Chūai tennō and her son Ōjin tennō.

What is very interesting about those legends is, that they claim that the gods possed Jingū tennō. They told her that Japan must conquer the land behind the sea. Her husband looked into the sea and saw nothing and told his wife he will not do that. Jingū tennō was very angry about that and told him he denounces the wish of the gods and he will die soon. And he did die soon after so Jingū tennō stepped on the throne and started her reign. That legend has an interesting "back sound" if you know what i mean.
#14367425
We need a myths and legends forum for this sort of thing. This "queen" belongs in the same places as trolls pixies and leprechauns. Everyone knows that Japan didn't have civilisation until China came and taught them how to write and how to build and how to wear clothes and how to speak anyway.
#14367441
Yellowscientist wrote:Yet certain 'facts' contradict with each other! I don't doubt that she, the person, existed. I doubt that all those heroic deeds were indeed done by her. Now why were royal Korean members sent to Japan? Uh, their country had collapsed and they had nowhere to go except one of their cultural inferior fellow countries? Why do you think they were hostages when they could also have been interwined as equal families?


It all makes sense if we assume that the Yamato Kingdom itself had Korean roots and the kingdom could have been a Korean military outpost established in the Kyushu region, which was just a stone's throw from the Korean Peninsula, in the style of the Norman conquest of England in 1066 (Hong 2009). Yamato rulers at the time still maintained family ties with their Korean counterparts and they undoubtedly exerted significant influence on what was happening in the Korean Peninsula as was the case with the Normans from northern France, who made themselves the ruling classes of Britain while maintaining their French connections (i.e. French was their official language for sometime and English has many borrowed terms from French as a result.) The ancient Yemaek people who founded the Three Kingdoms in the Korean Peninsula are genetically linked to present-day Japanese people and the word 'Yamato' is likely to be a phonetically different form of 'Yemaek'. Most Japanese historians are reluctant to accept this theory because it undermines the official or nationalist version of Japanese history that focuses on the uniqueness of the Yamato race and Korean historians are also responsible for distorting Korean history to suit their nationalist agendas, adamantly denying any positive Japanese contributions or civilising influences to modern Korea and concocting fictional accounts of Japanese brutality during the colonial era. For example, those Korean aristocrats who fled to Japan were 'hostages' in Korean textbooks but in reality, the emperor at the time was part Korean himself and he treated them courteously as his relatives.

According to the Kojiki and Nihongi, among all Yamato kings, only Jimmu the official Founder and the so-called fifteenth king Ōjin were born in Kyūshū: Jimmu shortly after the imperial ancestor deity Ninigi descended to Kyūshū from heaven, and Homuda immediately after his mother (Empress Jingū) landed on Kyūshū, crossing the sea from Korea. [31] From Kyūshū, Jimmu makes an epic Eastward Expedition, while Ōjin makes a miniature expedition eastward with his mother. [32] The fact that only Jimmu the official founder and Ōjin the fifteenth king were recorded to have been born in Kyūshū (only to conquer unruly elements in the Yamato area) implies that both Jimmu and Ōjin represent the one and only founder of the Yamato Kingdom. Leaving the southeastern shore of the Korean Peninsula, crossing the Korea Strait, and passing the islands of Tsushima and Iki, the expeditionary force led by Homuda lands on Kyūshū, not on the northern plain area crowded by the Yayoi aborigine but, passing the Kammon Straight (at the modern-day Shimonoseki City), on the secluded southeastern shore of Kyūshū Island, the modern Hyūga. In the Age of Gods, however, the Kojiki and Nihongi specify the Peak of Kuji-furu of Taka-chiho in the Hyūga area as the very spot where the godly founder of Yamato Kingdom descended from “Heaven.” [33] According to the Kojiki, immediately after Ninigi descended from heaven to the peak of Kuji-furu, he made the following statement: “This place faces towards Kara Kuni (Korea); it is…a land where the morning sun shines directly, a land where the rays of the evening sun are brilliant.” [34] According to Egami, this conspicuous mention of Korea at the very starting point of the foundation myth leads us “to regard Korea as the original home of the gods of heaven.” [35] Chamberlain, who had translated the Kojiki into English, notes the attempt by Motowori Norinaga (1730-1801), the leader of the so-called Kokugaku (National Learning) tradition that supposedly takes words and phrases in the Kojiki and Nihongi “literally” and then interprets their meaning in the most nationalistic way, to delete the word Korea: “though not daring actually to alter the characters (of the original text), assumes that they are corrupt and in his Kana rendering” omits the sentence mentioning Korea. Chamberlain further notes that: “His evident reason for wishing to alter the reading is simply and solely to conceal the fact that Korea is mentioned in a not unfriendly manner, in the traditional account of the divine age. … [There] is no excuse for so dishonest a treatment of the text he undertakes to commentate.” [36]
http://benthamsciencepublisher.com/open/toarsj/articles/V002/12TOARSJ.pdf
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