Confirms Japanese Are of Korean Descent. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14282536
To summarise Japanese came from Korea and Koreans came from China
(Created this topic so when this topic comes up again in other threads we can redirect the discussion here)

DNA Analysis Confirms Japanese Are of Korean Descent

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The present day Japanese are the mixed descendants of the archipelago’s earliest settlers Jomon-jin and the late-comers Yayoi-jin who crossed the strait from the Korean peninsula, according to a genetic analysis. The researchers from the Graduate University for Advanced Studies [Sokendai] of Kanagawa prefecture [Japan] published the results of their findings in the Journal of Human Genetics on November 1st.

This research further confirms previous research findings by analysing over 900,000 DNA mutations per person, significantly improving the robustness of the result. The researchers focused on a population sample of 460 from Kanto, mainland Chinese, European descendants, in addition to another 71 Ainus and Okinawans. The result shows the present-day Japanese are the inter-marriage between the earlier settlers and later-comers. This confirms the the ‘mixed-blood’ ancestry hypothesis.

The Ainus were closest to the native Okinawans and less so to the Kanto population. The Kanto population displayed the most genetic resemblance to Koreans. Until now, there have been a number of theories postulating on the origin of the Japanese, first of which was the Jomon dispersal-adaptation hypothesis, the displacement by the Yayoi population on the Jomon population, and the mixed-blood ancestry between the Jomon and the Yayoi.

Sokedai’s professor Saito Naruya confirmed that the finding matched the mixed-blood ancestry hypothesis The researchers plan to conduct further DNA sample analysis from the bones recovered from the Jomon burial sites.


So using DNA we have been able to Confirms Japanese Are of Korean Descent, disproving current japanese belief that the japanese people are not related to their Korean brothers who are also related to the Chinese people.

As far as we can tell the first asians were the ethnic Chinese who migrated to korea and latter japan.

more in depth analysing (http://www.wa-pedia.com/history/origins ... ople.shtml)
#14282565
You're doing it wrong. The Koreans did a paper on this before, and I don't think you are summarising it in the same way that they did. So I feel like you are trying to distort what science has uncovered, to serve your own pro-China agenda.

Obviously Japanese people did not sprout out of the earth. It's called migration, yes, but that migration is followed by isolation. The isolation causes them to drift apart over time.

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All that blue stuff clustered in diagram B is a population group effectively created by genetic isolation, isn't it? Also look at the green ones too.

They are close to each other relative to other groups, but they can still be basically identified as different groups when you zoom in like that. (Yes, SW Korea and Japan have some overlap which is explained by early migration routes of course - also Jeju Island is the Korean region that is most similar to Japan because Jeju Island is closer to what proto-Koreans were than what mainland Korea is right now).

There's also this:
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These are clearly not 'exactly the same'.

High frequencies of Y-chromosome haplogroup O2b-SRY465 lineages in Korea: a genetic perspective on the peopling of Korea, Soon-Hee Kim, Ki-Cheol Kim, Dong-Jik Shin, Han-Jun Jin, Kyoung-Don Kwak, Myun-Soo Han, Joon-Myong Song, Won Kim† and Wook Kim*† wrote:Interestingly, our Japanese group seemed to have both C1-M105 and C3-M217 chromosomes, whereas haplogroup C1-M105 was not present in most East Asian populations (except for Koreans), consistent with the previous report of Hammer et al. [13]. Haplogroup D2-M55 was found at high frequency only in Japanese subjects (29.3%), including 1.6% of Koreans, whereas it was absent elsewhere in these East Asian populations, except for the Beijing-Han group. Haplogroup D1-M15 was present at extremely low frequencies in the other East Asian populations. The occurrence of C1 and D2 chromosomes in Korea may be considered concordant with the historical views about the recent connection between the Korean and Japanese populations.

[...]

Age estimates based on our Y-STR data provide further support for the initial expansion of the O2b*-SRY465 in prehistoric Korea, in accordance with the proto-Korean lineages. Based on the Korean demographic and population history, a constant population in three different BATWING models may give the best fit to our data. Thus, time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) for the O2b*-SRY465 lineages was 9,900 years, assuming constant population size (Table 6). According to the three different population expansion models, TMRCA within the Korean and Japanese populations and the whole of East Asia ranged from 6,000-10,000 years ago. This date corresponds to the early Neolithic Age in Korea. Therefore, the age of the O2b*-SRY465 and pattern of variation within the lineages suggests a Neolithic proto-Korean founder in a nearby part of northeastern Asia, followed by a population increase in the vicinity of the Korean Peninsula.

Interestingly, the O2b1-47z sublineage seems to have diverged about 4,400 years ago (Table 6) rather than in the Yayoi period, consistent with a previous estimate of 4,000 years ago [13]. Therefore, the present data support the possibility of an ancient Korean origin of O2b1-47z, rather than a Japanese origin [13]. Although O2b1-47z is at its highest haplogroup frequency in the Japanese population, the Y-STR data reveal more diversity of O2b1-47z haplotypes in Koreans, as shown by the mean number of pairwise differences and allele size variation ratio (Table 5), supporting an origin of the O2b1-47z mutation in prehistoric Korea. The Japanese samples studied here were derived from Kyushu, Shikoku and southern Honshu (the region closest to Korea), implying that the high frequency of the O2b1 lineage in Japan may be explained by genetic drift [12,16]. This finding is concordant with a previous report of Nonaka et al. [36], showing less diversity in Japan than in Korea (Table 5). TMRCA of O2b1-47z, and a star-cluster pattern in this study (Figure 3) and a previous study [13], all suggest the possible association of O2b1-47z with the peopling of Korea. However, because most of the Japanese O2b*-SRY465 and O2b1-47z samples were also in the core (or close to) of the cluster (Figure 3), it cannot exclude the possibility that the Japanese and the Koreans derive from the same proto-population outside of Korea (carrying these lineages) at roughly the same time. Thus, further studies of sufficient sampling in the vast East Asian region and genomewide genotyping should provide further insights.

[...]

Our results support the idea that both haplogroups O2b*-SRY465 and O2b1-47z had an in situ origin among Northeast Asians, particularly among the prehistoric Koreans, rather than in southeast Asia or Japan as previously envisaged. The combination of the O2b initial settlement (which became an indigenous proto-Korean component) in part with the relatively recent O3 and C3 lineages (which include a Chinese component) explains some of the main events formulating the current Y chromosome composition of the Korean population. Thus, our findings are consistent with linguistic, archaeological and historical evidence, which suggest that the direct ancestors of Koreans were proto-Koreans who inhabited the northeastern region of China and the Korean Peninsula during the Neolithic (8,000-1,000 BC) and Bronze (1,500-400 BC) Ages.

Awesome.

Now, unless you want to make the incredible argument that some elements of proto-Koreans and proto-Japanese (who may have been the same group) were in fact 'Chinese' even though 'China' didn't exist as anything recognisable at the time, I would love to see to what extent you'd be willing to go to make that argument. It seems to me like purely a propaganda attempt. Genetic drift happens, isolation happens. That's how population groups are made.

"You have ancestry from mainland Asia in the area currently called the PRC, in the Neolithic era", isn't a ground-breaking thing to say, it's just a confirmation of the fact that people didn't grow out of the ground like plants, especially not on islands and at the edges of peninsulas.
#14282762
I must admit (although i'm a bit dumbfounded it that you couldn't figure it out) i was over simplifying the data. I was using the term Chinese to explain the rough location in question for example .... But thank you for clearing up my over simplifying of the data and solidating my argument.
#14283729
Rei Murasame wrote:There's also this:
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These are clearly not 'exactly the same'.


It would be interesting to see a pie chart of the Dekasegi (the mixed race ones).

Also why do the Vietnamese and Thais have so much overlap in their charts?
#14283832
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Frequencies of Haplogroup D and O in different Japanese population

Geographic distribution of lineages explained the great contribution of Yayoi in our results. Hammer et al. investigated geographic distribution of Y lineages in Japanese populations. Haplogroup frequencies of the Y lineages showed U-shape cline with significant correlation with geographic distance of the populations from Kyushu. In briefs, the frequency of D2 lineage increased with increase of the distance meanwhile frequencies of O lineages decreased6. The O lineages were recognized as a Yayoi founding lineage and D2 lineage was believed to be Jomon specific6, 23. Therefore, the pattern of geographic distribution of lineages supported published archeological and anthropological results about population expansion during Jomon and Yayoi period in Japan. The archeological studies suggested general demographic density was significantly greater in eastern Japan compared to western Japan around the 3,300 years BP and a rapid increase first happened in West Japan around 2,000 years BP24. The studies of physical anthropology on human skeleton showed the new continental immigrants in West Japan, Yayoi people, have better capability to achieve enough foods to feed more people than Jomon24, 25. The pattern of population expansion may explain the great genetic contribution (about 60–72%) of Yayoi in extent Japanese. Size of continental immigration was not necessary to be very large but descendants of the immigrants increased rapidly and subsequently dispersed from West Japan to other regions. Population admixture between the continental descendants (Yayoi) and Jomon descendants shaped genetic pattern of extent Japanese. Straits between Japanese islands and Asian mainland may not act as effective barriers to the genetic admixture.
http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/120405/srep00355/full/srep00355.html

About 51.8% of paternal lineages of the Japanese people belong to haplogroup O, and mostly the subgroups O3 and O2b, but what really sets them apart from other ethnic groups is another Y haplogroup D2, which makes up 35% of the Japanese male lineages. D2 is unique in Japan and the Ainu are known to have exclusively D2 (85.5%) and it's assumed that the D2 lineage is derived from the Ainu/Jomon people while haologrpup O is the genetic marker of their Yayoi ancestors from the Korean Peninsula.

From the coalescence analysis it is evident that besides D4b1a2, only two other clusters bear the strongest signal for the post LGM expansion in northern Asia. Subclusters D4m2 and D2 demonstrate a coalescence age of 12–20 kya and 11–15 kya, respectively, which are comparable with the age of D4b1a2. It is also remarkable that within D4m2, an Altaian branch precedes subcluster D4m2a, which is characteristic for a broad range of Arctic, Subarctic and southern Siberian populations (Figure S2). Another D4 subcluster, D2, has its most likely homeland in the Baikal region of southern Siberia, from where it expanded in the Holocene northward to northeastern Asia and further to northern America. The remaining northern Asian-specific clusters of haplogroup D are significantly younger with the age estimates not exceeding 5–8 kya (Figure 3). Among these, subclusters D4e4a and D4l2 are characterized by prevalence in the Subarctic and Arctic regions, being found mostly in Evenks and Yukaghirs, whereas several newly described subclusters within haplogroup D4j (D4j4, D4j5, D4j7, D4j8, D4j9, D4j10) demonstrate more southern geographic distribution, being detected in a variety of southern Siberian populations (Figure S2). It should be noted that the rare subcluster D4e4b has been detected in eastern Europe (in Tatars and Russians), thus pointing to a limited maternal gene flow between eastern Asia/southern Siberia and eastern Europe. One more mtDNA subcluster which may be indicative of eastern Asian influx into gene pool of eastern Europeans has been revealed in haplogroup D5a. It has been shown earlier that D5a mtDNAs, with the specific control region motif 16126-16136-16360, are present at a very low frequency in several populations of northeastern Europe (Saami, Karelians, Finns, Estonians, Komi, Russians of Arkhangelsk and Novgorod regions) as well as in central Asian Tajiks and Siberian Altaians and Mansi [10], [27], [30], [31]. Analysis of complete mtDNA phylogeny indicates that these mtDNAs belong to subhaplogroup named D5a3 defined by the only transition at np 16360 (Figure S2). It is obvious that mitochondrial genomes of Russian, Mansi and FamilyTreeDNA project individual belong to D5a3a branch harboring the entire HVS1 motif, whereas Korean mtDNA represents another D5a3 branch. In fact, this most ancestral sequence indicates that D5a3 lineages could have probably arise in eastern Asia about 16 kya, and that the other lineages, belonging to the D5a3a subgroup participated in a more recent European expansion around 2.6–3.5 kya (Figure 3). It should be noted that dispersal of Saami-specific Z1a mtDNAs shared a common ancestry with lineages from the Volga-Ural region as recently as ~3 kya probably chronicles the same.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0015214
Last edited by ThirdTerm on 06 Aug 2013 07:56, edited 2 times in total.
#14283941
ThirdTerm wrote:About 51.8% of paternal lineages of the Japanese people belong to haplogroup O, and mostly the subgroups O3 and O2b, but what really sets them apart from other ethnic groups is another Y haplogroup D2, which makes up 35% of the Japanese male lineages. D2 is unique in Japan and the Ainu are known to have exclusively D2 (85.5%) and it's assumed that the D2 lineage is derived from the Ainu/Jomon people while haologrpup O is the genetic marker of their Yayoi ancestors from the Korean Peninsula.

Yes, well said. That fills in the 'other' gap on the chart that I posted previously.

oppose_obama wrote:akuma is going to shit himself from anger when he sees this thread.

Probably not, as it has largely borne out the gist of his narrative anyway.
#14284195
Actually, more even than a pro-Chinese agenda I would say it serves an anti-racialist or false "post-racial" agenda (which may in fact be a Chinese agenda, whether one views the Chinese as legitimate Maoists or the latest members of the capitalist club), as if one purports that the Japanese and Koreans are effectively Chinese because of their region of origin which is ahistorical, then one can just as easily say that the European people don't exist because everyone migrated out from Africa.
#14285438
jessupjonesjnr87 wrote:How can a peoples be impure in blood? The whole idea of pure in blood what does it mean, is it a nice way of saying inbred or what?


No it means you keep your race characteristics. Since Japan has a population of more than 100 million you can smack your inbred insult away.

We have less than 1% foreigners in our nation and i think that is good for us.
Last edited by Akuma on 08 Aug 2013 22:03, edited 1 time in total.
#14285462
AFAIK wrote:Akuma, bearing in mind that you are on thin ice and have been issued a yellow card, what is your attitude to the Ainu, Burakumin and Dekasegi?



I don´t have a yellow card. It was given for unfair reasons and is irrelevant for me. I also don´t bend my opinion to make others happy. I respect Ainu. They are our small brothers.

I have no Burakumin friends. In my city Kyoto it is a big issue. We care about who our friends are. And i know only one Dekasegi...she was from Sao Paulo and came in our class, was mostly ignored and later did went back with her family because they could not get a job here. It is hard in japan if you come from outside even when you are ethnic japanese. Those people lack the ability to, what we call "read the air". In Japan we communicate very subtile. It is hard to understand for foreigners. If you are from outside, you don´t understand that and have constant conflict.
#14285489
Haplogroup D may have come from an interbreeding event with the Neanderthals and it has been speculated that the Neanderthals were the source of haplogroup D (Evans et al. 2006). Haplogroup D2 originated in the Lake Baikal region in southern Siberia and hominid remains in Uzbekistan and in the Altai region of southern Siberia were recently found to fall within the European Neanderthal mtDNA variation (Pääbo et al. 2007). The physical similarities between the Neanderthals and the Jomon/Ainu people may prove the Neanderthal lineage of haplogroup D.

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Homo neanderthalensis
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Jomon male

Speculation about the identity of the archaic Homo population from which the microcephalin D allele introgressed into the modern human gene pool points to the Neanderthal lineage as a potential (although by no means only) candidate. Furthermore, the worldwide frequency distribution of the D allele, exceptionally Anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals shared a long period of coexistence, from as early as 130,000 years ago in the Middle East (39) to as late as 35,000 years ago in Europe (40), consistent with the estimated introgression time of the microcephalin D allele at or sometime before ≈37,000 years ago. Furthermore, the worldwide frequency distribution of the D allele, exceptionally high outside of Africa but low in sub-Saharan Africa (29), suggests, but does not necessitate, admixture with an archaic Eurasian population. Finally, our estimate of the separation time between D and non-D alleles (i.e., ≈1,100,000 years with a lower-bound confidence interval of ≈530,000 years) is largely consistent with the divergence time between modern humans and Neanderthals based on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence difference (320,000–740,000 years; refs. 41 and 42) and with the earliest appearance of Neanderthals in the fossil record ≈500,000 years ago (43). It would be of great interest to sequence the microcephalin locus in Neanderthals or other archaic Homo lineages, should it become technically feasible to retrieve and analyze nuclear DNA from ancient hominid remains. Our results not only provide genetic evidence in support of the possibility of admixture between modern humans and an archaic Homo lineage but also support the notion that the biological evolution of modern humans might have benefited from the contribution of adaptive alleles from our archaic relatives.
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/48/18178.full

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The partial skeleton of an 8–10-year-old child discovered in the late 1930s in Teshik-Tash Cave, Uzbekistan, is generally accepted to represent the easternmost extent of the Neanderthal range3. However, its Neanderthal affinities have been disputed4,5. Further to the east in the Altai region of Siberia, human remains have been found in association with Mousterian lithic technology, which is usually associated with Neanderthals in Europe but is also found in association with modern humans in the Near East and northern Africa6. To determine whether the Teshik Tash and Okladnikov individuals are genetically affiliated with European Neanderthals, we attempted to retrieve mtDNA from the left femur of Teshik Tashand the three fragmentary long bones from Okladnikov. So far,mtDNA sequences have been determined from 13 Neanderthals in Europe 11–20. Comparison of these DNA sequences with those of mtDNAs from contemporary humans shows that the Neanderthal mtDNA gene pool was distinct from that of modern humans.
http://www.academia.edu/486419/Neanderthals_In_Central_Asia_and_Siberia


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The Udmurts in the Udmurt Republic with a high frequency (12.7%) of haplogroup D (Bermisheva et al. 2002).
#14285577
AFAIK wrote:what is your attitude to the Ainu

Me and him already talked about the Ainu is this thread here: [Link]

Simply read down the page and you'll see the conclusion that was arrived at.

ThirdTerm wrote:Haplogroup D may have come from an interbreeding event with the Neanderthals and it has been speculated that the Neanderthals were the source of haplogroup D (Evans et al. 2006). Haplogroup D2 originated in the Lake Baikal region in southern Siberia and hominid remains in Uzbekistan and in the Altai region of southern Siberia were recently found to fall within the European Neanderthal mtDNA variation (Pääbo et al. 2007). The physical similarities between the Neanderthals and the Jomon/Ainu people may prove the Neanderthal lineage of haplogroup D.

Great information again, ThirdTerm, you're becoming one of my favourite posters. I'll also add for Y-DNA:
OPEN Magazine, Haplogroup D > M168 > YAP > M174 (emphasis added) wrote:Today, descendants of this ancient lineage termed Haplogroup D can be found in Southeast Asia and the Andaman Islands. Around 40 percent of the men in Japan are descended from this lineage, as are a large number of Tibetan men. Descendants are likely to be found in India along the Himalayan belt.

M168

TIME OF EMERGENCE: Roughly 50,000 years ago

PLACE OF ORIGIN: Africa

CLIMATE: Temporary retreat of Ice Age; Africa moves from drought to warmer temperatures and moister conditions

ESTIMATED NUMBER OF HOMO SAPIENS: Approximately 10,000

TOOLS/SKILLS: Stone tools; earliest evidence of art and advanced conceptual skills

Skeletal and archaeological evidence suggests that anatomically modern humans evolved in Africa around 200,000 years ago, and began moving out of Africa to colonise the the world around 60,000 years ago.

The man who gave rise to the first genetic marker in this lineage probably lived in northeast Africa some 31,000 to 79,000 years ago. Scientists put the most likely date for when he lived at around 50,000 years ago.

His descendants became the only lineage to survive outside of Africa, making him the common ancestor of every non-African man living today.

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(The map is based on the National Geographic version of the migration of the Haplogroup. The text updates this version based on recent research and offers a differing version.)

YAP: An Ancient Mutation

TIME OF EMERGENCE: Roughly 50,000 years ago

PLACE OF ORIGIN: Africa

ESTIMATED NUMBER OF HOMO SAPIENS: Approximately 10,000

According to the NGP sub-Saharan populations living today are characterised by one of three distinct Y-chromosome branches on the human tree. This lineage falls under one of these ancient branches and is referred to by geneticists as YAP. It is the most common of the three ancient genetic branches found in sub-Saharan Africa. It is characterised by a mutational event known as an Alu insertion, a 300-nucleotide fragment of DNA which, on rare occasion, gets inserted into different parts of the human genome during cell replication. Over time this lineage split into two distinct groups. One is found primarily in Africa and the Mediterranean and is defined by marker M96. The other group is found in Asia and defined by the M174 mutation.

M174: Taking the Coastal Route

TIME OF EMERGENCE: Roughly 50,000 years ago

ESTIMATED NUMBER OF HOMO SAPIENS: Approximately 10,000

TOOLS AND SKILLS: Stone tools; earliest evidence of art and advanced conceptual skills

This lineage in all likelihood would have been part of the first major wave of migration out of Africa that followed the coastal route to India and onwards to East Asia. Taking advantage of the plentiful seaside resources, these early migrants followed the coastline of Africa through the southern Arabian Peninsula, India, Sri Lanka, and Southeast Asia.

People from this lineage still live along this ancient route, particularly in Southeast Asia and the Andaman Islands. Current distribution also suggests two later migrations. The first carried along the East Asian coast into Japan and a more recent migration, taking place within the last several thousand years, brought descendants of this lineage into Tibet from Mongolia.

And:
wiki: Y-DNA Haplogroup D-M174 wrote:The Haplogroup D-M174 Y-chromosomes that are found among populations of the Japanese Archipelago are particularly distinctive, bearing a complex of at least five individual mutations along an internal branch of the Haplogroup D-M174 phylogeny, thus distinguishing them clearly from the Haplogroup D-M174 chromosomes that are found among the Tibetans and Andaman Islanders and providing evidence that Y-chromosome Haplogroup D-M5 was the modal haplogroup in the ancestral population that developed the prehistoric Jōmon culture in the Japanese islands.


ISOGG, 'Y-DNA Haplogroup D and its Subclades - 2013' wrote:Y-DNA haplogroup D is seen primarily in Central Asia, Southeast Asia, and in Japan and was established approximately 50,000 years ago. Sub-group D1 (D-M15) is seen in Tibet, Mongolia, Central Asia, and Southeast Asia, and the sub-groups D* (D-M174) and D3 (D-P47) are seen in Central Asia. The sub-group D2 (D-M55) is seen almost exclusively in Japan. The high frequency of haplogroup D in Tibet (about 50%) and in Japan (about 35%) implies some early migratory connection between these areas. Examination of the genetic diversity seen in sub-group D2 in Japan implies that this group has been isolated in Japan for between 12,000-20,000 years. The highest frequencies of D2 in Japan are seen among the Ainu and the Ryukyuans.

So we see that a migration story - as well as a story of relations - can be told through the Y-DNA like that.

I think we've actually completed the story from every angle now.
#14286176
I'm not sure that the Y gives us that much information. A small group of dominant men can overtime dominate the Y pool without necessarily bringing that much other chromosomal material into the genome population. Its easy to identify and trace which makes it attractive to researchers. Mitochondrial DNA is also limited,although it does give us strong indications of the movement of women,or often the lack of it. But the nucleic DNA of the original mitochondrial lineage holders may have been completely eliminated.
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