Gobekli Tepe what does it mean for the human time line? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Rome, Greece, Egypt & other ancient history (c 4000 BCE - 476 CE) and pre-history.
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#14695298
yiostheoy wrote:Why do you think so?

Good writing as well as good speech normally precedes a conclusion with data and analysis.

I have read through this thread and I have found nothing that changes anything.


Evidence is there. People built spectacular monuments(Gobekli Tepe, Sphinx, to name a few) they lived in cities(jericho) all this thousands of years prior to when Historians think humans created the first civilization...which was nothing more then a city state no different except that we were lucky to find tablets of writing. So do you dispute these facts?
#14695473
Oxymoron wrote:Evidence is there. People built spectacular monuments(Gobekli Tepe, Sphinx, to name a few) they lived in cities(jericho) all this thousands of years prior to when Historians think humans created the first civilization...which was nothing more then a city state no different except that we were lucky to find tablets of writing. So do you dispute these facts?

You have still not added anything coherent.

We already know that small vestiges of civilization were beginning to sprout around 10,000 BCE.

There are already examples all across Asia from East to West.

This little hilltop was nothing special.
#14695485
You have still not added anything coherent.

We already know that small vestiges of civilization were beginning to sprout around 10,000 BCE.

Indeed. Nothing springs fully formed out of nothing. For civilisation to get started, it must already have existed in embryo during the preceding epoch.

There are already examples all across Asia from East to West.

This little hilltop was nothing special.

In terms of scale, it was something special. However, there's no reason to believe that a hunter-gatherer society on the verge of becoming an agricultural society couldn't have built it over the course of many centuries. And it tells us something important about the origins of human civilisation: first came the temple, then came the city.
#14695493
yiostheoy wrote:You have still not added anything coherent.

We already know that small vestiges of civilization were beginning to sprout around 10,000 BCE.

There are already examples all across Asia from East to West.

This little hilltop was nothing special.


Do not try to be purposefully dense.... My point is that these examples point to a different historical timeline than is currently accepted.
#14695494
Potemkin wrote:Indeed. Nothing springs fully formed out of nothing. For civilisation to get started, it must already have existed in embryo during the preceding epoch.


In terms of scale, it was something special. However, there's no reason to believe that a hunter-gatherer society on the verge of becoming an agricultural society couldn't have built it over the course of many centuries. And it tells us something important about the origins of human civilisation: first came the temple, then came the city.


Or perhaps all things being equal with the evidence at hand we can say the simplest deduction is that the time line for civilization should be moved back. Instead of trying to force old ideas on to new evidence.
#14695497
Oxymoron wrote:Or perhaps all things being equal with the evidence at hand we can say the simplest deduction is that the time line for civilization should be moved back. Instead of trying to force old ideas on to new evidence.

In J.M. Roberts' book "History Of The World" he spends the entire second chapter on defining civilization and tracing it.

He concludes that it sprung up in fits and starts for at least the first 10,000 years BCE. It came and went.

Then in the several major river valleys of China, India, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Meso-America it caught hold to stay around 4,000 BCE.

Mohenjo Daro goes back 10K years. As does Jericho. Mohenjo Daro flourished and spread, whereas Jericho did not.

There is nothing new about Anatolia.
#14695500
Or perhaps all things being equal with the evidence at hand we can say the simplest deduction is that the time line for civilization should be moved back. Instead of trying to force old ideas on to new evidence.

The point is that there was no city at Gobekli Tepe at the time that monument was built. Nor was there any sign of large-scale agriculture. It was built by hunter-gatherers. The first monumental architecture was not built in cities.
#14695501
Potemkin wrote:The point is that there was no city at Gobekli Tepe at the time that monument was built. Nor was there any sign of large-scale agriculture. It was built by hunter-gatherers. The first monumental architecture was not built in cities.


Thank you for your opinion, but the monument could have been purposefully away from cities in the same way as Machu Pichu...or perhaps Hunters also built that, since there is obviously no farm land or cities near by.
#14805827


Joe Rogan had skeptic Michael Shermer on with Hancock and Carlson to talk about this and other subjects.

I think TIG nailed it earlier: this whole thing is a debate about Childe's hypothesis and the nature of the neolithic revolution. As a historian I think the most significant point about all of these early neolithic megalith sites is the complete lack of writing, although not unprecedented (Great Pyramid of Giza necropolis has no "official" writing beyond graffiti from the workmen). Then again, medieval churches didn't necessarily utilize scripts either, so the lack of writing on what is clearly a religious place of veneration or cult significance is not in and of itself evidence that writing didn't exist (for accounting purposes- as it first seems to have emerged in Egypt and Sumer). But yes, I'm more interested in the historical origins of writing than these megalithic structures which although impressive do not strike me as particularly unusual. People were occupying these sites for thousands of years, clearly they were going to build structures that would last.

Full episode here.
#14805834
MB. wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk3xdMkwMsE

Joe Rogan had skeptic Michael Shermer on with Hancock and Carlson to talk about this and other subjects.

I think TIG nailed it earlier: this whole thing is a debate about Childe's hypothesis and the nature of the neolithic revolution. As a historian I think the most significant point about all of these early neolithic megalith sites is the complete lack of writing, although not unprecedented (Great Pyramid of Giza necropolis has no "official" writing beyond graffiti from the workmen). Then again, medieval churches didn't necessarily utilize scripts either, so the lack of writing on what is clearly a religious place of veneration or cult significance is not in and of itself evidence that writing didn't exist (for accounting purposes- as it first seems to have emerged in Egypt and Sumer). But yes, I'm more interested in the historical origins of writing than these megalithic structures which although impressive do not strike me as particularly unusual. People were occupying these sites for thousands of years, clearly they were going to build structures that would last.

Full episode here.



Listening to it as well, very interesting. I do not see how a site as vast could have been created by hunter gatherers, main stream Archeologist themselves dismissed this idea originally when the dates lined up nice and neat. Now all of a sudden with the crazy ancient age of this site they are stumbling over themselves trying to give credit to these same small groups with no surplus food, or labor. Not like they started with some small project and grew from there, no just bam huge ass astronomically aligned site. I still stick with Hancock theory, I do not see any evidence of hunter gatherers building this.
#14805837
MB. wrote:The site isn't much older than Catalhoyuk and is in fact contemporaneous with Jericho, so I don't buy this argument that Gobekli Tepe is really pushing the dates back or overturning the "mainstream".


There is evidence of human settlement at Jericho, but no major structures and even the oldest settlements are still thousand year junior to Tepe, Catalhoyuk is even younger still.
#14810753
Does the rise of agriculture cause the creation of surplus time or simply create more of it?
Does agriculture and/or sedentary civilization make mega construction projects possible or just easier?

In a world without any artificial markers or assisted navigation, anything substantial will stick out.. - a sharp jagged rock formation will catch your eye. But there is nothing that says natural formations (however odd) are special or places of importance/meeting. Unnatural formations would stick out, like a pop can in the woods. How do we know the stones are not just sign posts saying "there is something important here"? Now-a-days we think of an arrow as a direction symbol but a circle also has an implied direction - towards the centre. Make a few rings with different rock sizes and position densities to differentiate each ring and it could become an obvious navigation sign.
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