Agamemnon -- the 3rd well known king from ancient history - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14694920
I am having a hard time deciding who the #3 most well known king in chronological order from ancient history is.

Sargon is clearly the earliest, not counting Gilgamesh whom we do not know was real or fiction. From the ridiculousness of the stories about Gilgamesh I would have to go with fiction for Gilgamesh.

The Epic Of Gilgamesh is more famous for its flood story, which predates Moses by about 15 centuries. Maybe Moses was taught the story while he himself was a young prince of Egypt living in the palace of Pharaoh. Maybe he decided to incorporate this flood story into his other stories for his introduction called Bereshet (Genesis) to his 5 volume multi scroll history of the ancient world to 1450 BCE called "The Torah". That's really all that Gilgamesh is famous for. The rest of Gilgamesh is just about two frat boyz who hang out and boink temple maids and prostitutes and each other. Bisexuality was the norm anciently, or so Gilgamesh and the other historians who are of Greece and Rome tell us.

Hammurabi is clearly the favorite for the #2 spot. And even he is just another ordinary vanilla king, nothing really great about him, other than he created a bunch of stele with laws on it -- "written in stone". Even so, his is the second name in history that we learn of from archaeology regarding an actual person who actually lived, Sargon having been the first. It is really nice that Hammurabi appears on the stele as well, so this gives us a look at what ancient kings and what their gods looked like.

For #3 we do NOT have any archeology unfortunately. But we do have a name. However this name does not come from archaeology because nobody in West Asia mentions him. He was too far and remote from all of them. And it does not come from history either, since history was not yet invented by Herodotus in 440 BC Greece yet. This king's name, who is third on the list, comes from literature -- the first literature of the European world. His name comes from the Iliad. His name is AGAMEMNON !

The best journalistic prose written about Agamemnon comes from the British documentary filmmaker Michael Wood in his book which accompanies his documentary, "In Search Of The Trojan War" (Facts On File Pubs, Oxford England, 1985).

Obviously the primary source is the Greek epic poem "The Iliad" itself. Epic poetry is not history. But even so the German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann used The Iliad to find an ancient fortress on a hill in western Turkey called Hisarlic (39.957 North Latitude, 26.239 East Longitude -- from Greenwich England UK) which everyone believes is ancient Troy. No doubt the ancients themselves also believed it, because they themselves built a Roman era city on top of it as well. Thus there are 9 ancient cities built upon this hilltop, of which #6 is believed by most scholars to be the Troy of the Iliad, although Wood himself believes it to be #7A.

There is even a large ancient burial mound located nearby Hisarlik which is at 39.961 N, 26.168 E which resembles one of the burial mounds described in The Iliad -- presumably that of the mythical warrior Achilles who was killed by Paris with an arrow-shot to the ankle.

The best motion picture made about the Trojan War was by director Wolfgang Petersen in his 2004 movie "Troy". He takes a few liberties which are unauthentic like the killing of Menelaos on the battlefield, which The Iliad does not say happened. And he condenses the whole war into a couple of weeks, which The Iliad says took 10 years. Yes I loved the movie and watched it several times. Yes I have read The Iliad as well, both in English and in Greek.

In a scene in this movie, Agamemnon confounds Achilles by saying, "History does not remember soldiers, history remembers kings! ... I will carve "Agamemnon" in the stone!"

Unfortunately Agamemnon did NOT carve his name anywhere. And he could not if he had wanted to. Because the ancient Greeks of the Bronze Age were illiterate, we are told by Josephus Flavius the Jewish/Roman historian in 70 AD. Literacy did not come to the Greeks until about 700 BCE at the earliest. The Greek tradition is that Cadmus the new king and founder of Thebes came from Phoenicia and brought Phoenician writing with him about that time. The Jewish tradition is that Moses invented the Hebrew alef-bayt in order to copy the Torah more easily into writing than Egyptian Hieroglyphics allowed, taking two dozen Hieroglyphs for his pictographic letters from Alef to Tav. King Solomon taught them to the scribes of King Hiram of Tyre when they helped him build the first temple at Jerusalem. And thus the Phoenicians learned them.

But epic literature and oral tradition are not history. And until 700 BCE the Greeks were illiterate. So nobody carved Agamemnon's name in the stone.
Last edited by yiostheoy on 23 Jun 2016 22:49, edited 1 time in total.
#14694937
Sargon is clearly the earliest, not counting Gilgamesh whom we do not know was real or fiction. From the ridiculousness of the stories about Gilgamesh I would have to go with fiction for Gilgamesh.

So the Epic of Gilgamesh is "ridiculous", whereas the Iliad is gospel truth? :eh:
#14694945
Potemkin wrote:Most commendable of you, Y. Aristotle would be proud! :)

Hopefully yes -- I try to give Aristotle as much credit whenever possible for his "Prime Mover" proof of god and the 40 deities he believed were required to govern the Universe of stars in the night sky.

However I am most fond of Aristotle for creating Logic.

If A = B, and B = C, then A = C ... at least in syllogistic form.

"Socrates is a man; all men are mortal; therefore Socrates is mortal."
#14694987
In the Iliad, Agamemnon is not a nice guy. He steals Achilles' girlfriend Briseis from him just to show that he can do it if he wants to. Pure arrogance. This is how the Iliad begins, with this story and these lines:

"Rage-Goddess, sing of the rage of Peleus' son Achilles;
Murderous, doomed, who cost the Achaeans countless losses;
Hurling down to the house of death so many sturdy souls;
Great fighters' souls, but made their bodies carrion;
Feasts for dogs and birds;
And the will of Zeus was moving toward its end;
Begin, Muse, when the two first broke and clashed;
Agamemnon lord of men, and brilliant Achilles!"

That's how the story begins. And 945 verses later this is how it ends:

"And so the Trojans buried Hector, breaker of horses."

The Iliad begins during the 10th year of the war, and ends with the death of Hector at the hands of Achilles, after Achilles again joins the fight, because Hector killed his beloved comrade Patroclus.

Agamemnon is actually a minor character in the story, although he is the great king who brought all the kings of Greece (Achaea) to Troy to sack it. They did not care about Helen.

Herodotus tells us that Helen was in Egypt at the time of the war anyway, and not even present in Troy. Paris' ship had been blown off course from Sparta/Glythion while they were sailing away together and it beached in Egypt. It was the Pharaoh Ramesses 2nd who inquired of their story, and then not wanting to offend Menelaos or Agamemnon he kept Helen in Egypt while expelling Paris to return to Troy without her. After the Trojan war, Menelaos then sailed to Egypt having received word, and fetched Helen home from there. Agamemnon wanted gold and silver and slaves from Troy -- he did not care that Helen was not there nor that the Trojans were innocent of the kidnapping.

So Herodotus the world's first historian lends credence to Agamemnon's story after all, even though it is told only in myths and legends passed on orally from the time of the Trojan War at approximately 1250 BCE until Herodotus' own day in 440 BCE when he writes his account "The Histories" 8 centuries later.
#14695523
yiostheoy wrote:I'll have to recuse myself.

I am 25% Greek.

:D

Well, if you're OK with using myths as a basis, then your earliest famous Greek (using a modern definition of Greek) ought to be King Minos. You've got an archaeological basis for a kingdom you can place him in, and that's earlier than Agamemnon.

But really, the evidence for Agamemnon as a person is just myth. There's real evidence for many named Egyptians (not just pharaohs, either) a lot older than the supposed Trojan War period, and legendary Chinese emperors, for that matter.

the ancient Greeks of the Bronze Age were illiterate, we are told by Josephus Flavius the Jewish/Roman historian in 70 AD

No; they used Linear B.
#14695527
Prosthetic Conscience wrote:But really, the evidence for Agamemnon as a person is just myth. There's real evidence for many named Egyptians (not just pharaohs, either) a lot older than the supposed Trojan War period, and legendary Chinese emperors, for that matter.

The city of Troy was once itself thought to be mythical, until its ruins were finally uncovered in 1865. So I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the characters in that story as purely mythical, even if there are undoubtedly mythical elements.
#14695535
Paradigm wrote:The city of Troy was once itself thought to be mythical, until its ruins were finally uncovered in 1865. So I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the characters in that story as purely mythical, even if there are undoubtedly mythical elements.

As I said, the evidence for Agamemnon is just the myth. There was real physical evidence for Athens that no-one ever lost track of, but that doesn't make Theseus a "well known king from ancient history".
#14695539
Prosthetic Conscience wrote:Well, if you're OK with using myths as a basis, then your earliest famous Greek (using a modern definition of Greek) ought to be King Minos. You've got an archaeological basis for a kingdom you can place him in, and that's earlier than Agamemnon.

But really, the evidence for Agamemnon as a person is just myth. There's real evidence for many named Egyptians (not just pharaohs, either) a lot older than the supposed Trojan War period, and legendary Chinese emperors, for that matter.


No; they used Linear B.

You are right, and I struggled with those issues.

I dismissed the Egyptians however because they are only famous because of the Bible. By the time Egypt became a well known name the Greek queen Cleopatra was in charge of it. And we are not yet on the topic of famous ancient females -- Nefertiti & Artemesia & Tomyris & Cleopatra.

I dismissed the Cretans because although the other ancient nations talk about them as the most ancient sea power, only Greek mythology preserves Minos' name and his Minotaur "pet".

Since the Iliad is famous, I settled on Agamemnon. And I relied on Herodotus to lend the epic credibility.

As for China, the most famous name to come out of her is Confucius and that is not until 500 BCE.
#14695546
yiostheoy wrote:I dismissed the Egyptians however because they are only famous because of the Bible. By the time Egypt became a well known name the Greek queen Cleopatra was in charge of it.

Wait, what? Long before Cleopatra, Egypt was a trading partner with the Minoans, enemies with the Hittites, described by Herodotus when he named the pyramids one of the 7 wonders of the world (one of two that were not Greek in origin), and of course finally conquered by Alexander the Great (which is how Cleopatra became queen in the first place).
#14695553
Paradigm wrote:Wait, what? Long before Cleopatra, Egypt was a trading partner with the Minoans, enemies with the Hittites, described by Herodotus when he named the pyramids one of the 7 wonders of the world (one of two that were not Greek in origin), and of course finally conquered by Alexander the Great (which is how Cleopatra became queen in the first place).

Correct. And by the time of Herodotus the Egyptians had been long conquered by the Persians.

That's where Herodotus' story begins, with the expansion of the Persians into Europe.

But that is not until 450 BCE.

The Egyptian riverboats never ventured into the Mediterranean leaving the great seas to the Cretans, the Phoenicians, and the Greeks.

Whereas Akkad and Babylonia were land powers, the Greeks and Phoenicians plied the seas. And of them Agamemnon is the first famous name.
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