Greeks may have built China's Terracotta Army - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14726121
Greeks may have built China's famous Terracotta Army wrote:Greek artists could have travelled to China 1,500 years before Marco Polo’s historic trip to the east and helped design the famous Terracotta Army, according to new research.

The startling claim is based on two key pieces of evidence: European DNA discovered at sites in China’s Xinjiang province from the time of the First Emperor in the Third Century BC and the sudden appearance of life-sized statues.

Before this time, depictions of humans in China are thought to have been figurines of up to about 20cm.

But 8,000 extraordinarily life-like terracotta figures were found buried close to the massive tomb of China’s First Emperor, Qin Shi Huang, who unified the country in 221BC.

The theory – outlined in a documentary, The Greatest Tomb on Earth: Secrets of Ancient China, to be shown on BBC Two on Sunday – is that Shi Huang and Chinese artists may have been influenced by the arrival of Greek statues in central Asia in the century following Alexander the Great, who led an army into India.

But the researchers also speculated that Greek artists could have been present when the soldiers of the Terracotta Army were made.

One of the team, Professor Lukas Nickel, chair of Asian art history at Vienna University, said: “I imagine that a Greek sculptor may have been at the site to train the locals.”

Other evidence of connections to Greece came from a number of exquisite bronze figurines of birds excavated from the tomb site. These were made with a lost wax technique known in Greece and Egypt.

There was a breakthrough in sculpture particularly in ancient Athens at about the time when the city became a democracy in the 5th century BC.

Previously, human figures have been stiff and stylised representations, but the figures carved on the Parthenon temple were so life-like it appeared the artists had turned stone into flesh.

Their work has rarely been bettered – the techniques used were largely forgotten until they were revived in the Renaissance when artists carved statues in the Greek Classical style, most notably Michelangelo’s David.

Dr Li Xiuzhen, senior archaeologist at the tomb’s museum, agreed that it appeared Greece had influenced events in China more than 7,000km.

“We now have evidence that close contact existed between the First Emperor’s China and the West before the formal opening of the Silk Road,” the expert said.

“This is far earlier than we formerly thought.

“We now think the Terracotta Army, the acrobats and the bronze sculptures found on site have been inspired by Greek sculptures and art.”

And Professor Zhang Weixing, lead archaeologist at the tomb site, said: “The archaeological work undertaken here recently is more important than anything in the last 40 years.

“By systematically examining the First Emperor’s main tomb and subsidiary burials we have discovered something more important even than the Terracotta Army.”

The mitochondrial DNA samples revealed Europeans had settled down in China and died there during the time of the First Emperor and even before then.

Hamish Mykura, of the National Geographic Channel, which made the documentary with the BBC, said: “The scope of these archaeological finds and what they mean for world history are astonishing.

“The new revelation that two of the world’s ancient super powers may have been in contact is a vital reminder today of the need for intercultural communication on a global scale.”

And BBC presenter Dan Snow said: “I hope audiences will find the new evidence as astonishing and thought-provoking as I did.

“It is extraordinary to think that history as we know it is changeable.”

The Terracotta Army – more than 8,000 figures buried less than a mile from the tomb – was found in 1974, but new geophysical survey evidence suggests the complex is much bigger than previously thought at 200 times the size of Egypt’s Valley of the Kings.

And the bones of 10 young women buried with precious jewellery made of gold and pearls have been found at the site.

Disturbingly, it is thought these women were the First Emperor’s concubines, who were murdered and mutilated as part of his funeral. There are 99 similar graves.

And the skull of a very high-ranking male was found with a crossbow bolt embedded in the back of the skull.

It is thought the bolt was fired at close range, suggesting the man was executed.

Chinese archaeologists believe it could be the remains of Prince Fu Su, the First Emperor’s eldest son, who was murdered along with his siblings by their younger brother Prince Hu Hai following their father’s death. The grave contains a total of seven different bodies, all of whom had been killed.
#14726254
OP wrote:The startling claim is based on two key pieces of evidence: European DNA discovered at sites in China’s Xinjiang province from the time of the First Emperor in the Third Century BC and the sudden appearance of life-sized statues.

What is European DNA? How is that qualified for that age?
Do the Tocharian or the Iranians(of that age)/Sogdians/etc count as Europeans?
#14729060
You can backtrack DNA, L in Bosnia-Hercegowina is not the same like the scandinavian L, Genealogy is a science which developed fast in the last 10 Years.


Hinduism had also no figures of their Gods, but after the hellen invasion in India by Alexander the Great, they started building sculptures.

interesting question would be if the Euro-DNA came from Greece, or Afghan Macedons, who live in the Border region and produce Alcohol.

But you can see a lot in DNA probe, and the locate the origin, by historic scelletons and todays population. Genealogy combined with History, and you have data for century of research.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup

Haplogroups are huge, but every region has a specific marker, who occured due to small mutation in a certain time. The male line at least. The female line is geographical not precise. Because the paternal line decides the tribe, the mother teaches you to speak. So are language families not the same like genetic relations.

In Wars or tribal scirmishes were women commonly robbed, males killed. I think therefore survived just female Neandertal DNA in Nord-Hemisphere.



a nice graphics about the R1a:

Image
#14729111
Bosnjak wrote:Hinduism had also no figures of their Gods, but after the hellen invasion in India by Alexander the Great, they started building sculptures.


This is wrong. What you are thinking is Buddhism, there is a correlation that before Hellenistic contacts Budhha was depicted in sculptures as an animal or flower etc but after Hellenistic contacts he was started to being depicted in Human form with the birth of "Gandharva Art" . But there surely were sculptures starting from IVC.

And second point Alexander isn't really important in ancient Indian history in the sense that he isn't remembered at all in ancient Indian history but it was the successor states of Alexander that really begin the massive contact between the two civilizations. We have Indianized name of every such successor kings and embassies were exchanged as far as between Mauryas and Ptolemys.
#14729560
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The ancient Egyptians

Based on the modern population of Egypt, and removing the foreign elements, it is reasonable to assume that the Neolithic to Bronze Age Egyptians belonged primarily to haplogroups E1b1b, with minorities of G, R1b-V88 and T. There might have been some J1 too.

Nowadays perhaps as much as 30% of the Egyptian paternal lines could be descended from post-Bronze Age invaders, notably from the Arabic peninsula (hg J1-P58, 20% of the population), but also from Greece (more E1b1b + I2a, J2, R1b-L23, R1a) and Anatolia (mostly J2 and R1b-L23, with some R1a).

The ancient Persians

Iran has a highly heterogeneous populations when it comes to Y-DNA. Percentages vary greatly between East and West, and from North to South. Ancient Persia was less diverse, but still very mixed by ancient standards. Its ethnic composition prior to the Greek, Arabic and Mongol invasions was probably made of about 35% of haplogroup J (J1 being more predominant in the South and J2 in the North), 20% of hg R1a, 15% of hg G, 15% of hg R1b, 5% of hg L, and 10% of other haplogroups.

The ancient Babylonians

Babylonians in southern Mesopotamia belonged primarily to haplogroups J1, J2 and T, with a minority of E1b1b and G.

The ancient Assyrians

The Assyrians would have contrasted with their southern Babylonian neighbours by having much more J2 than J1 and a considerable amount of R1b-L23 (20 to 40%). They would also have had minorities of E1b1b, G and T lineages.

The ancient Sarmatians & Scythians

Descended from the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-Europeans, the Scythians would have belonged mostly to haplogroup R1a (probably more than 50% of the paternal lineages), which is the only Y-DNA haplogroup that has been found in various Iron Age Scythian remains in eastern Europe and Central Asia to date. It is very likely that the Scythians also possessed a substantial minority of R1b, and smaller percentages of G1, G2a3b1, J2a, J2b2, Q1b and T1a1a. The Sarmatians would have been essentially the same, perhaps without the G1 and Q1b and with some eastern European I2a1b and E-V13.

The ancient Slavs

Present-day Slavs are descended from Bronze Age Steppe cultures descended from the Corded Ware culture (including the Catacomb and Srubna cultures), associated with the R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 people, as well as the Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (I2a1b-M423). Slavic Europeans belonged primarily to haplogroup R1a and I2. Southern Slavs descended from the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians have a much higher proportion of I2a1b.

Eastern Europeans from the Danubian basin and the Balkans have also inherited a sizeable percentage of haplogroup E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2b and T from the expansion Neolithic farmers that started from northern Greece 7,000 years ago. These lineages survived at a higher frequency in non-Slavic populations of the Balkans, notably the Albanians, Romanians, Vlachs and Greeks.

The Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

According to ancient sources, the Thracians were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%), R1b (10%), I2a1b (25-30%), E-V13 (10-15%), G2a, J1, J2a, J2b, and T1a. The Dacians were closely related to the Thracians and would have carried a similar mixture of haplogroups. The Illyrians have more mysterious origins, but judging from the modern haplogroup frequencies in the Dinaric Alps, they surely were predominantly a blend of R1a and I2a1b.


The ancient Celts

It is now believed that the ancient Celts were by a very large majority R1b people. Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-DF27, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades (see Haplogroup R1b).

The ancient Germanic people

The four main haplogroups associated with Germanic people are I1, I2a2a (M223), R1a (mostly the L664, Z283 and Z284 subclades) and R1b (mostly U106, but also L238 and DF19). Here is more information on Germanic I1, Germanic I2a2a, Germanic R1a, and Germanic R1b

The ancient Indians

The Indo-Aryan people who invaded the Indian peninsula from Central Asia and Iran 3,500 years ago belonged mostly to haplogroups R1a-Z93, with a minority of G2a3b1, J2b2, R1b (both M269 and M73) and R2. This is known from the analysis of Y-DNA of the upper castes of Indian society (the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas), thought to be descended from the Indo-Aryans with minimal admixture on the paternal side. The native Dravidians belonged to the indigenous South Asian haplogroups C5, F, H and L.

The ancient Chinese

Haplogroup O is associated with the Han ethnicity, as well as most of the people of East Asia and Polynesia. Nowadays O3 is the most common in northern China while O1 dominates in southern China.

The ancient Japanese

Modern Japanese people are composed of two ancient ethnicities : the Yayoi people, who migrated from the Korean peninsula about 2,300 years ago, bringing with them agriculture; and the Jomon people, the hunter-gathers who had lived on the archipelago for millennia before that. The Yayoi were hg O people (mostly O2b and O3), like the northern Chinese and the Koreans. The Jomon belonged mostly to the rare haplogroup D (also found in Tibet and in the Andamans, some of the most isolated places on Earth), essentially the uniquely Japanese D2, but also a minority of C1 (also unique to Japan) and East Siberian C3. For more information see The Origin of Japanese people.

The ancient Americans

Be them nomadic tribes from North America, Aztecs, Mayas, Quechuas or cannibals from Amazonia, almost all native Americans belonged to haplogroup Q1a3a, but a minority of hg C existed in North America.





All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a1a (M26) survived in Sardinia because of it's relative isolation. I2a1b (M423) seems to have adopted agriculture early on around the Carpathians and is thought to have migrated to the Dinaric Alps around 1000 BCE with the Illyrians, where it survives in over 50% of male lineages in most of Bosnia and Croatia. (We Ljekavica Slawonics are rather relatives of Ötzi :( )

Ancient Greeks

The Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Levant was picked up in Anatolia along the way by Levantine farmers and herders.

Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E1b1b too.

Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Pontic steppes via the Balkans. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1b-L23 and/or R1a. The Thracians, who emerged as a blend of Indo-European R1a and Neolithic I2a1b, are also responsible for the higher density of I2a1b and R1a in northern Greece.

Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E1b1b) were already well-established and numerous by that time.


Ancient Anatolians

Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers and herders from the Fertile Crescent (E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, T).

The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE), Phrygians (1200 BE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably predominantly R1b-L23, considering its high percentage in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the Pontic Steppe. By that time the steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people, so that was probably the Cimmerians's main haplogroup. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.


Romans, Celts and Germans

Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b-L11 stock. They split north of the Alps, in modern Germany. They also incorporated a sizeable minority of G2a3b1 and J2b2 lineages, especially the Celts and the Italics.

The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2a2 people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of autochthonous haplogroup I.

Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. All of them mixed with I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b people from the Megalithic cultures. The Alpine and Rhino-Danubian Celts also encountered I2a2 people.

It is likely that the language of the indigenous Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from western Anatolia or some Aegean islands, and brought mostly haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2 and R1b-L23 with them. The Greeks in Italy brought a similar admixture, but with a higher proportion of E1b1b. The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E1b1b, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a1.


source: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal ... ecad.shtml
#14742073
The Neandertal story reminds strongly on Kail and Abel.

Interesting is also all Haplo-types came from 1 man and 1 woman who lived 150 000 Years ago.


The Monkey has 98% same genetic like the human, but a fly has also 50% so 2% are in Genetics enormous.

The R1b or R1a are tribes
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