[Ixa]

The Greeks invented science and philosophy, so they get my vote. The greatest Roman scientist/philosopher was Lucretius, and there is hardly anything which is not derived from Greek sources in his doctrine. The Romans were engineers, architects, and administrators, not scientists and philosophers. They were practical men. They lacked the generalising genius of the Greek mind. They only surpassed the Greeks in law, administration and other things of only material or practical value.

[Potemkin]

Better at what? If you wanted to discuss the possible ways in which the Universe began, a Greek was probably the best one to talk to; if you wanted to adminster a province, the Romans were the people you needed to talk to.

They only surpassed the Greeks in law, administration and other things of only material or practical value.

These are pretty important things! The Greeks may have founded rational thought, but they were terrible at politics and at empire-building. The political failure of the Greeks has been be set alongside the unprecedented political and imperial successes of the Romans. Without the Romans, Greek culture might never have survived the Dark Ages - they valued it, preserved it, and passed it on to us.

[Attila The Nun]

The Greeks invented science

That undersells the achievements of the civilizations which came before the Greeks, the Babylonians, the Persians, even the Sumerians and Egyptians. I like to think that the beginning of science started with the discovery of fire.

[The American Lion]

Romans.

Why? Because the Roman Republic crushed Macedon during the third war and took over all of Greece.

[Doomhammer]

Romans spead their culture and laid the foundations of modern Europe. Also, the Romans had a superior army, central authority, good legal system and pwned everyone.

Romans were clearly superior in the areas mentioned above. The Greeks did have better philosophers though.

[Looter]

The Greeks outlasted the Romans by a thousand years and also lead to the Soviet Union- the greatest country the world has ever known.

[KurtFF8]

The Greeks invented science and philosophy

Not really, there were civilizations before them that engaged in science (as stated before) and I'm sure philosophy.

But I'm personally more interested in Roman history itself, so that's where my vote would go (simply for that fact). Although I do like Greek Mythology.

[Ixa]

That undersells the achievements of the civilizations which came before the Greeks, the Babylonians, the Persians, even the Sumerians and Egyptians. I like to think that the beginning of science started with the discovery of fire.

Not really, there were civilizations before them that engaged in science (as stated before) and I'm sure philosophy.

I wrote a long response to this but I lost all of my work because Internet Explorer stopped responding. I will re-write it to-morrow. Suffice it to say, something somewhat like science/philosophy existed before the Greeks, but it wasn't science/philosophy. That was a much later development.

[Clausewitz]

It's hard to say.

I will say the Greeks, though. The Romans' greatest legacy was the transmission of Greek civilization (however Latinized) to Europe. I think that could and would have been accomplished by the Carthaginians or the Greeks themselves if it hadn't been for the Romans.

The Greeks themselves - in addition to leaving an indelible mark on societies from the Atlantic to the Indus - made tremendous strides in architecture, philosophy, logic, and philosophy that overshadowed anything that came before it in the West, and, I think, overshadowed anything in the West until the 1600s.

So, if we set "without which civilization would, well, civilization have been set back furthest" as our definition of greatness, I think it would have to be the Greeks. I think Rome's achievements could have been produced by more than a few different societies in the Mediterranean; Greece's might have taken centuries to reproduce.

Mere conquest would make the Mongols one of the world's greatest civilizations, which is silly.

[KurtFF8]

or the Greeks themselves if it hadn't been for the Romans.

Probably, as the Greeks had many settlements throughout Europe

[Boondock Saint]

The Greeks outlasted the Romans by a thousand years

But the Romans crushed teh Greeks.

and also lead to the Soviet Union- the greatest country the world has ever known.

The greatest country the world has ever known didnt even last a century?

Please, the USSR was crap.

Anyway ... China > Rome > Greeks > just about everyone > Russia > Kurds.

[Unperson-S]

Greeks - they laid the groundwork of science that remained there until the renaissance in Europe.

Almost all of the big names of science and politics and the arts of the ancient world were from Greece.

Oh, and one word for your Greek slandering because they lost to the Romans - Alexander the Great. He conquered most of the known world (the world known to the Greeks and the Med civilizations.

The Greeks created the first working democracy - not as democractic as it is now, but it created a new idea that the people could have a say, rather than just a few noblemen.

The Romans were a great people, but they lacked the ingenuity that the Greeks had.

[Potemkin]

I wrote a long response to this but I lost all of my work because Internet Explorer stopped responding.

Internet Explorer = shit. And I thought you use Opera?

[Ixa]

I do use Opera, but I am using a public computer at the moment.

[Potemkin]

I do use Opera, but I am using a public computer at the moment.

Ah, that would explain it. Why do public computers always use the shittiest and the most expensive software available?

[Thunderhawk]

What is better?


A people who create and invent routinely, but rarely remember it or export it.

vs


A people who create and invent slowly, yet recognize, record and absorb better ideas, and spread it around.

[Gletkin]

Oh, and one word for your Greek slandering because they lost to the Romans - Alexander the Great. He conquered most of the known world (the world known to the Greeks and the Med civilizations.

But Alexander the Great was Macedonian, not Greek.

But I think that the Greeks "had more originality" than the Romans. Like the Macedonians, the Romans pretty much just copied a lot of stuff from the Greeks.

At least they respected the Greeks though. Eventually, Greece became Rome's equal as the governing center of the eastern half of the Roman Empire and then Rome's successor as the Byzantine Empire.

[KurtFF8]

The Romans were a great people, but they lacked the ingenuity that the Greeks had.

I don't know about that, look at Roman genius in Engineering and Civics. This laid the foundation for many things for Europe to come (that can't just be attributed to the Greeks)

But Alexander the Great was Macedonian, not Greek.

Wasn't Macedonia part of Hellaian culture?

Edit for addition:

At least they respected the Greeks though. Eventually, Greece became Rome's equal as the governing centre of the eastern half of the Roman Empire and then Rome's successor as the Byzantine Empire.

Well the Romans didn't really respect the Greeks like you'd think. They saw them as inferior, as they did conquer them an all. And I wouldn't really say that the Byzantine Empire was a successor to Rome, as it simply was a continuation of Rome. They even called themselves "Roman" but yes their official language was Greek, but it was still the Roman Empire.

[Mikolaj]

Better at what? If you wanted to discuss the possible ways in which the Universe began, a Greek was probably the best one to talk to; if you wanted to adminster a province, the Romans were the people you needed to talk to.

This basically sums up my view on the issue. Although in some respects I would lean towards Greece, as Rome heavily borrowed from their culture.

[Looter]

As far as I am concerned if you speak Greek, you are Greek. A bunch of Germans could come along and call themselves Romans, and they did, but who would they be kidding. What about the Romanians? I am a fantastic Byzantine fan, to me they are a neglected chapter of history. One of my great insights is that there is a great thread of civilisation stretching from Homer to Putin. People in the west are completly unaware of this. There is a scond half of European civilisation about which they know nothing. This is all related to dissing the Russians and as you know I have never forgiven the Turks. That country they call Turkey is really Greece too. The west is not as sophisticated or idealistic as the East, they have a far smaller palette of Cultural influences.