[ruudgirl]

But my "request" (since thats how you'd prefer it titled) wasn't any different to yours.
So please do provide.

i used the word "request" nowhere in that quote you included. i'm not sure you're actually reading what i say.

i will ask my sister which poem it is, but i do not have the source by me this instant. happy? if you WERE reading what i said, you would see that i was not in fact asking him for a direct quote, so in asking me for one, you are NOT "requesting" what i was. if you want to get all technical about it.

[Alexandros]

ruudgirl

Sorry but I'm just about to get "pissy" even though I detest it..

a) I agree that you never used the word "request" you simply posted "source?", it was I that decided to change my use of "demand" with "request" so that my approach wouldn't be perceived as "pissy".

b) It seems that we (I and noemon) are both simply unable to comprehend your highly sophisticated form of speech, hence why we understood that your statement :

source? i think we've established already that all of greece cannot be characterized by sparta

implied some form of request for sources that would support that laws against homosexual relations were sanctioned in other cities besides Sparta.
But then the question is why you didn't react to his suggestion that you read the entire thread??

Anyway, I'll be waiting for that source.. which I hope you'll provide whenever able to do so.

[ruudgirl]

But then the question is why you didn't react to his suggestion that you read the entire thread??

i did. thanks. i'm done with you. civility is necessary for good communication. and communication is necessary for debate, otherwise we're talking past each other. have a nice day.

[Alexandros]

i did. thanks. i'm done with you. civility is necessary for good communication. and communication is necessary for debate, otherwise we're talking past each other. have a nice day.

Actually no you didn't. But yes being civil is essential for any form of debate/discussion. But when you are totally ignored, you tend to get annoyed.

That "anno domini" is a fine example of what I'm talking about..

Say hi to sis..

[ruudgirl]

That "anno domini" is a fine example of what I'm talking about..

what? what are you talking about? and ignored? when did i ignore?

talked to sis (thanks for asking, i appreciate the sarcasm) and she says it's in the aeneid. we also agreed that it is impossible to convince someone who disagrees that the greeks (eg achilles and patrocles) were having homosexual relationships otherwise. it is a generally accepted fact. but, just like interpretations of the bible, people can always argue a different translation, etc etc...

and so, unless you make another passive-aggressive jab at me that i feel forced to respond to, adieu.

[ruudgirl]

oh, and please don't try to tell me whether i did or did not read the rest of the thread.

[Alexandros]

what? what are you talking about? and ignored? when did i ignore?

talked to sis (thanks for asking, i appreciate the sarcasm) and she says it's in the aeneid. we also agreed that it is impossible to convince someone who disagrees that the greeks (eg achilles and patrocles) were having homosexual relationships otherwise. it is a generally accepted fact. but, just like interpretations of the bible, people can always argue a different translation, etc etc...

and so, unless you make another passive-aggressive jab at me that i feel forced to respond to, adieu.


oh, and please don't try to tell me whether i did or did not read the rest of the thread.

What am I talking about ?

Lets see, according to my "limited knowledge" the phrase "anno domini" = A.D = AFTER CHRIST.
So we can safely conclude that you indeed didn't read the thread, otherwise you would have known that laws against homosexual relations did indeed exist prior to "anno domini" as already cited or we conclude that you simply chose to ignore previous posts without providing a single reason for their rejection.

b) Do inform sis that she just described an event of incest since Achilles was, his uncle..

To top it all off, she, as a classics scholar should have known that Roman sources are not used as accurate sources of Hellenic history/mythology since as we all know (at least some do) they are bias against them, furthermore, Aeneid is but a bad immitation of Homer's work with clear political motivations.. but she as a scholar will surely be able to explain what I mean.

see ya..

[ruudgirl]

Do inform sis that she just described an event of incest since Achilles was, his uncle..

yes, well "incest" was not taboo until much later. romans often married siblings. in the bible, also. in the old testament, abram (abraham)'s brother married his niece. and there are still plenty of cultures in which marrying one's cousin is perfectly acceptable. so i don't see that as an argument against the fact that achilles and patrocles were lovers.

[ruudgirl]

To top it all off, she, as a classics scholar should have known that Roman sources are not used as accurate sources of Hellenic history/mythology since as we all know (at least some do) they are bias against them, furthermore, Aeneid is but a bad immitation of Homer's work with clear political motivations.. but she as a scholar will surely be able to explain what I mean.

please refrain from thinly veiled attacks on the intelligence or validity of those who are not here to defend themselves.

or, in plain english, "don't you be talkin' bout my sista!"

in any case, i believe this thread is about both greeks and romans, and their approaches to homosexuality. so it is nevertheless valid, since it speaks to the tolerance of the romans, at least to greek homosexuality. whatever. i thought it was from a greek poem originally, which is why i said what i said, and only after speaking to the sister did i realize it was homer. i'm human. so sue me.

and please, do lay off the passive aggressive digs at my sister. they achieve nothing.

[Alexandros]

YOu have to be kidding me here..

a) you try to relate judeo morals and "mythology" to those of ancient Hellas when they are not even remotely close to being compared. ONLY after Alexander's campaign and his multicultural empire did we ever see such relationships (of incest NOT homosexual) but this was stritly between the royal Ptolemies and not a common practice.

Its like saying that since according to Plutarch (fortune or virtue of Alexander), the Persians married their mothers and the Skythians ate their dead, its safe to conclude that since they did, the whole ancient world did

i thought it was from a greek poem originally, which is why i said what i said, and only after speaking to the sister did i realize it was homer. i'm human. so sue me.

Sue you.. nah not yet..

You originally claimed that its from the aeneid, which is written by VERGIL hence why I spoke of Roman views towards Hellenes and his political motivations to write the text in question, but NOW you claim that after speaking to your sister, who by the way is a classics scholar, you understood that its Homer ! a Homer who NEVER WROTE the damn thing..

So honestly, how am I not to take a "pissy" approach when all you do is produce unsubstantiated claims and contradict yourself ??

[ruudgirl]

You originally claimed that its from the aeneid, which is written by VERGIL hence why I spoke of Roman views towards Hellenes and his political motivations to write the text in question, but NOW you claim that after speaking to your sister, who by the way is a classics scholar, you understood that its Homer ! a Homer who NEVER WROTE the damn thing..

ay-yi-yi. talk about having a stick up your ass. it's my sister, not me, who studied classics. so i misremember, so just correct me and be done with it. there's a difference between an honest mistake and hypocrisy.

right. roman writing about greek was the POINT. but the roman writing so highly of a homosexual relationship shows the ROMAN tolerance of it. and actually, plenty of folkses married their sisters.

anyway, so i'm clearly not qualified to talk about this in your eyes. that's fine. what are your superior qualifications, may i ask? (that is not a rhetorical nor a sarcastic question. i would like to know by whom i am being schooled.)

[ruudgirl]

besides, achilles/patrocles happens in the iliad. which IS by homer.

it is the runner/lover story that is in the aeneid.

[noemon]

besides, achilles/patrocles happens in the iliad. which IS by homer.

it is the runner/lover story that is in the aeneid.

Homer does not gives us details of Homosexual relations between them 2 but the Aeneid might be considered that it does. The Aeneid is a Roman translation of Homer, and politically motivated for that matter.

So, one cannot use Homer as a source for info, and neglect the fact that in Homer there was no sexual relations.

Also you say that in Judeo/Abrahamic-Morals, marriage in between families was appropriate and hence it was for the Greeks as well. But you have missed the quotes of the thread, where prior to anno domini....The Greeks had Laws against Homo-sexuality and Laws against sexual relationships among the families:

Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaemonians
2.13

[13] The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.

Whoever Athenian gives his body to be had(sexually) by another man is forbidden to be elected as one of the nine lords and be a priest or lawyer or any place in public office or any other position internal or external by voting or chance and never to be sent as messenger never to speak before the parliament or the forum (Agora) or to enter in public temples or take part in public festivals or wear the festive ring of Demeter and enter the market.
Whoever condemned thus breaks the following prohibitions must be tied <<δησαντων αυτον>> and once the civilians have tied him to be delivered to the eleven to be slain before the day has passed.

Aischines Against Timarch 52. 1

And a tragedy that shows social attitudes towards kinaidismo/Homosexuality) and intermarriage: Oidipus:

Here in Thebes we find the first seen "strying from normality" is Laios. Laios, known to most because of his son Oidipus. Laios was the first "kunaidos" according to Hellinic mythology/history.
Laios had abducted and raped Chrysippos, for this, Pelops cursed him to be killed by his own son.
So we find that the first ever recorded "pederast" was cursed and due to this curse, his whole family line was wiped out thanks to his "unatural activity".

We find that Oidipus married his mother (without knowing it) she kills herself and he blinds himself never to be heard of again.
The 4 children born by this unwanted marriage are also doomed, the brothers Eteocles and Polynices fall in battle killed by eachother's hand. Antigone is sentenced to death and Ismene asks for the same fate as her sister.

Justice is served for what their sick grandfather (Laios) had done.

When we know of such customs being passed down from generation to generation and plays written pertaining this exact myth. It is hard to believe that they would go against these traditions..

So, according to Law but also according to Greek tragedy, Homosexuality was banned, inter-marriage was banned as well.

If specific individuals were Homosexual, we need to examine the cases by cross-referencing the Ancient Texts. That doesnt mean the Greek society had justified "kinaidismo" (legal homosexuality). That only means that he or she were homosexuals.Nothing more nothing less.

In the case of Achilles and Patroclus....
According to Homer there was no sexual relationship between Achilles and Patroclus, Greek Law verifies that since inter-family relationships were banned, and Homosexuality deprived you off your civic-rights.

The Aeneid is not the original source but a Roman re-make.

Regards.

[Alexandros]

what are your superior qualifications, may i ask? (that is not a rhetorical nor a sarcastic question. i would like to know by whom i am being schooled.)

Consider me an elementary school drop out for all I care, since that is not the issue here.

besides, achilles/patrocles happens in the iliad. which IS by homer

OK, so you know where its mentioned, now here's the simple task, provide the quote which suggests that they had homosexual relations..

it is the runner/lover story that is in the aeneid

Finally we're getting somewhere.. BUT what does Vergil tell us in his Aeneid ??

BOOK V
http://classics.mit.edu/Virgil/aeneid.5.v.html

Nisus, for friendship to the youth renown'd


Nor of the sacred bonds of amity


I hope you know that "amity" has absolutely nothing to do with anything sexual but clearly indicates "friendship"

[Real G]

First of all we should make clear that there wasn't an ancient country named "Greece",but there were city-states, each with different laws,ethics etc..
At some c-s it was tolerable,and even often,at some other ones,it wasn't.

[Order]

I am sure Alexander and Hephaistion never touched. :-)

[Corporatios]

I am sure Alexander and Hephaistion never touched. :-)

Well, I actually don't believe Alexander was gay. I've read an essay that was about Alexander being gay and the arguments were pretty lame.

[Order]

Well, I actually don't believe Alexander was gay. I've read an essay that was about Alexander being gay and the arguments were pretty lame.

He was not just gay, his mistresses bear witness. But it certainly was much more than friendship, considering his collapse after Hephaistion's death.
But anyway, I just threw in this comment for fun. I have never studied ancient history but it has always seemed to me that the tendencies to homosexuality in Ancient Greece were an established fact.

[noemon]

The tendency to homosexuality is a human established fact. Greece was and is no different than any other in this respect.

Regarding Alexander and Hephaistion, it is utter imagination that they had any sexual relations and there is not one single reference from ancient authors, not even an allusion. And where do you have his mistresses bearing witness? In Hollywood fantasia? Please, feel free to provide the testimony. That he was so sad of his death does not mean they were screwing. A man can be sad by the death of his childhood friend.

Regarding Alexander and Bagoas(eunuch), there is one single incident mentioned in Athenaus and Plutarch, when Bagoas won the prize of dancing, and the king gave him a kiss(not defined where) as a prize.

Upon this single incident, the entire Alexander bisexual assumption has been built.

Soon after, Alexander assumed the attire of the Persian monarchs, as well as the diadem, which was unknown to the kings of Macedonia, as if he gave himself up to the customs of those whom be had conquered. And lest such innovations should be viewed with dislike, if adopted by himself alone, he desired his friends also to wear the long robe of gold and purple. That he might imitate the luxury too, as well as the dress of the Persians, he spent his nights among troops of the king’s concubines of eminent beauty and birth. To these extravagances he added vast magnificence in feasting; and lest his entertainments should seem jejune and parsimonious, he accompanied his banquets, according to the ostentation of the eastern monarchs, with games; being utterly unmindful that power is accustomed to be lost, not gained, by such practices.

Then he put on the Persian diadem and dressed himself in the white robe and the Persian sash and everything else except the trousers and the long-sleeved upper garment. He distributed to his companions cloaks with purple borders and dressed the horses in Persian harness. In addition to all this, he added concubines to his retinue in the manner of Dareius, in number not less than the days of the year and outstanding in beauty as selected from all the women of Asia. Each night these paraded about the couch of the king so that he might select the one with whom he would lie that night.

[Order]

And where do you have his mistresses bearing witness? In Hollywood fantasia? Please, feel free to provide the testimony.

I was referring to him being NOT (only) gay.

That he was so sad of his death does not mean they were screwing. A man can be sad by the death of his childhood friend.

Just strange that of all the people that died during his campaign only one got this insanely strong reaction. But as I said, I am not very well-versed in the details and the historical interpretation.

I am just surprised by the insistence with which you claim that the Greeks did not accept homosexuality (at least in limits). I have never read that anywhere, a big conspiracy indeed.