[The American Lion]

Has anybody watched this PBS documentary? Its talks and shows evidence that a Chinese merchant fleet discovered the Americas in the year 1421.

Check out the website http://www.1421.tv

The site is run by the
Association of Zheng He Studies

International Zheng He Society
www.chengho.org

Friends of Admiral Zheng He
www.admiralzhenghe.com

The documentary and the site gives some good evidence that shows the fleet was there before the Spanish 50 years eariler.

Some evidence:

This artefact was pulled off the ocean floor in the Gulf of Mexico close to Aranspass, Texas and has been dated to c1400AD. It is assumed to have come off a shipwreck and the carving appears to be Chinese in style and composition - note the pointed beard and slit eyes. Charles R. Daniel

[Maxim Litvinov]

I've got the book and have flicked through it. The Chinese merchant fleets of the 15th century were truly spectacular.

The evidence is pretty flimsy, however - although I've really only looked at the idea they 'discovered' Australia and had a few mining outposts here.

[The American Lion]

Im currently watching the show right now. You are right his evidence is flimsy. I dont know why Gavin Menzies still believe his weak DNA idea. The main reason why most Native Amercans have some asian DNA is because they came from Asia and not have sex with Chinese salors.

[onemanarmy]

i found the evidence quite beleivable, i think there is enough to at least suggest they went to most of east africa, australia, and america. but if it is true it is quite facinating.

[Maxim Litvinov]

It's certainly interesting. In a way, what's more interesting is WHY we're interested.

After all, people have known about Zhong He for quite a while. They've known that the Chinese had enormous ships - bigger than any ship ever constructed up until the 20th Century. We're talking ships that were designed to house thousands, or as floating rice paddies designed to continue to grow fresh produce while on expedition - something that the European navigators didn't manage even after three or four more centuries.

We're talking of a large merchant and exploratory navy, trading with India and establishing outposts in the islands of modern-day Indonesia some centuries before Europeans regularly rounded the Cape of Good Hope and started up their colonial empires.

We have already known all of this, yet few people in the 'West' had heard of Zhong He, despite the fact that his navy had been centuries ahead of its time...

BUT if you claim he crossed the Pacific (which, as far as I know, seems eminently possible given his ships, but not a very useful endeavour) and saw the Americas, or claim he wasted his time travelling down to Australia it all of a sudden becomes interesting, despite the fact that any contact/relationship he had with these lands (if he indeed saw them) was negligible and left no permanent imprint and that other peoples had long before arrived there and settled the area.

'Tis quite strange.

[Schrödinger's Kitty]

1421 was after Leif Eriksson.

Vikings > Chinese

[Maxim Litvinov]

Now look at the distance between Iceland and Newfoundland and the distance between Shanghai and Los Angeles. Not to mention that Zheng He's fleet went almost the same distance in the other direction (ie - to East Africa)

Shanghai - LA = more than 10000km
Iceland - Newfoundland = less than 4000km

[Rhinestone Pseudo-Commie]

Aw can't we all simply settle on the fact that everyone discovered America?

We have the Vikings, the Chinese, the Spanish, the English, the Italians, the Russians, etc. But who are we to say that anyone discovered America.

WHAT ABOUT THE NATIVE AMERICANS? THEY LIVED THERE ALREADY! It's like someone walking into, say, Washington DC and saying...

"Oh my god, I've discovered the lost city of...these people! I'm going to call them the "spire race" because that structure (Washington Monument) seems to be their religious temple! I claim this land under my name!"

[Attila The Nun]

How can you discover a place already inhabited by an indiginous people?

[Rhinestone Pseudo-Commie]

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING!

[The American Lion]

How can you discover a place already inhabited by an indiginous people?

Thats because western and eastern civilzations never knew there was a new world to conqure. Except for the Vikings which they were the first to discover, but their knowlege lost to history.

[Schrödinger's Kitty]

TAL is right. The indiginous people didn't know that was an undiscovered place. They just thought of that as the only world they knew. When they went over the ice-bridge as hunter-gatherers they didn't realise they were seperated from the rest of humanity. They didn't think of it as 'discovering' because they called it home. THe vikings or chinese on the other hand realised they found an entirely new place to their knowledge.

[MB.]

I had alwasy figured that Chinese merchants would be sailing along the west coast looking for Jade, and trading with the natives. I mean, just look at some of the old pottery- it looks exactly like Coast Salish stuff in some cases.

Seems pretty likely in my opinion.

[kamikaze pilot go!]

I never heard of this before. Sounds like a lame attempt at making some conspiracys.

[Piano Red]

The first people to discover the Americas were 1.) Native American migrants who crossed the Bering Strait landbridge. and 2.) The Egyptians/Nubians who were partially responsible for the rise of the Central and South American civiliztions such as the Mayans, Incans, Aztecs, etc.

[Maxim Litvinov]

2.) The Egyptians/Nubians who were partially responsible for the rise of the Central and South American civiliztions such as the Mayans, Incans, Aztecs, etc.

So you're a von Daniken buff, are you? You do know the Egyptian/Nubian 'link' is entirely fanciful, don't you?

[Comrade Ogilvy]

There have been discoveries of Viking settlements in Canada.

No traces of Chineese.



Norwegian glory etc.

[Tangerine]

Maxim, 1441, and there was a massive expansive expedition in China to discover the entire world. Those big ships as you described them were built, and Zheng He was the head of the navy. He, as far as I remember, went to the V of Africa. Other expeditions went up around the top of Russia and around Iceland down the Americas and crossed the Straight of Magellan. All the while making extremely accurate maps of everywhere they want, with their mastering of latitude and longitude some years previously. Another expedition, I believe, went down around Australia.

Look for the book 1441 the Year China Discovered the World. After this happened, there was an overthrowing of that Dynasty, and China became isolationist. The Dynasty tried to destroy all recollection of the places they found. Some documents go through, many remaining today, evidence showing that Magellan and Columbus had these maps, and that is how they knew where to go. They presented these maps as support for these expeditions to Kings, and supposedly Magellan revealed his secret to his crewmates when they refused to cross the Strait of Magellan.

Interesting because it's any wonder what's happened in human history and was lost through bad leadership. It’s a damn sad shame the Great Library was torched. Damn those extremist religious people.

[Maxim Litvinov]

Tangerine - I know the premise of the book... which is indeed that Zheng He's discoveries were 'lost' because the state went isolationist and wanted nothing more to do with them. We are fairly sure that Zheng He's fleets sailed the Indian Ocean to east Africa and down to Indonesia... but there is still nothing more than circumstantial evidence that he went to Australia or the Americas. The maps are not very conclusive evidence.

[Piano Red]

So you're a von Daniken buff, are you? You do know the Egyptian/Nubian 'link' is entirely fanciful, don't you?

Is it?



Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that that pic of an anicent Olmec statue isn't indicative of the obvious African roots to many of the Central and South American empires? Aside from the physical indications, the statue's headset is remarkably similar to the helmets worn by Nubian soldiers of that time period.

What reason is there not to believe that the Nubians and Egyptians didn't have the capacity to sail accross the Atlantic? They were widely considered to have been the best shipbuilders in the world for centuries.