The Freedoms we enjoyed in 1253 - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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End of Roman society, feudalism, rise of religious power, beginnings of the nation-state, renaissance (476 - 1492 CE).
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By QatzelOk
#13618290
Smilin Dave wrote:Maybe you should just stop here Qatz, every post you've made in this thread has been an unmitigated disaster. I don't think I'll even have to further demonstrate the hole you've inexpertly dug for yourself here.


Gays were just starting to get harassed in some parts of Europe in the year we are asked to fantasize going back to.

I blame failing civilizations for the repression of naturally-occurring homosexuality.

SmD, I've painted myself into a corner that is larger than the rest of the floor you are standing on.

8)
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By noemon
#13646635
QatzelOk wrote: 385 BC – Plato's Symposium is published in which it is argued that love between males is the highest form and that sex with women is lustful and only for means of reproduction. Only with men can the Greek male reach his full intellectual potential.


Yeah, it is argued by the feminine member of the gay couple in the room.
But loses the argument.
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By QatzelOk
#13646993
MY POINT

The reader always superimposes his own social norms onto the history he reads.

For example, we assume that most people in Ancient Greece visited Internet forums to see what the social norms were. In actual fact, most people - historically - were illiterate, so their actions would be much less governed by laws and social norms than ours are in the propaganda/education-soaked Modern age.

Likewise, most people in the past were rural and had little time or energy for "society" of any kind. The particular actions that were practiced in the individual farmhouse were much less regulated than the urban, connected Modern's actions.

When it comes to things like gay sex, it is virtually impossible to say with any accuracy which times in history were the best for decent gay relations.
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By nucklepunche
#13688247
The OP shows a naive view longing to return to a past that never actually existed. The medieval times were an era where most people were serfs. Yes there was a weak central government but the tyranny of local landlords was widespread.
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By sazerac
#13697703
I found it to be kind of clever and fun till I got to the homosexuality part. Just kind of made the rest irrelevant.

I think we should just erase any abuse suffered by homosexuals from written history so we can tell kids it's always been ok to be gay. Nobody ever thought anything wrong about it. And we could tell them that people who opposed gays were sent to the gallows from where they never returned. It was very rude and the powerful gay king was offended.
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By Godstud
#13697732
You were also free to die of most diseases in 1253, and enjoyed a relatively short life.

nucklepunch wrote:The OP shows a naive view longing to return to a past that never actually existed. The medieval times were an era where most people were serfs. Yes there was a weak central government but the tyranny of local landlords was widespread.
Exactly. Most of these freedoms were not applicable to the vast majority of people.
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By sazerac
#13697859
You were also free to die of most diseases in 1253, and enjoyed a relatively short life.
Our ancestors survived all that stuff. All the death and disease and starvation and wars and disasters.

That's why each of us is an incredible miracle.
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By Godstud
#13698636
Yes, a percentage did manage to survive. In 1253, however, you were likely to die from tooth disease and other diseases that we wouldn't consider life threatening now.
By Smilin' Dave
#13698763
sazerac wrote:I think we should just erase any abuse suffered by homosexuals from written history so we can tell kids it's always been ok to be gay. Nobody ever thought anything wrong about it. And we could tell them that people who opposed gays were sent to the gallows from where they never returned. It was very rude and the powerful gay king was offended.

Ignoring the fact that this is vandalism of some of humanity's collective intellectual work for banal reasons, white-washing history takes away a story of progress and triumph over adversity. Even by trying to re-write to create a 'social message' you erase an equal if not greater 'socially useful' lesson and thus failing to meet your own intent :| .
#13908327
It is utterly nonsense to state that Sodomy between men was legal and widespread throughout Europe in 1253, it is especially absurd to write about reports from the ancient world as if this somehow supports it. It was certainly quite unlawful and not tolerated except in one place.....Monasteries.

If you had a boy who displayed such qualities then they would be packed off to the local monastery and placed according to station (the poor became lay brothers, the higher middle classes monks .)

there is a reason for all that lace and frippery in church vestments.
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By septimine
#13915765
nucklepunche wrote:The OP shows a naive view longing to return to a past that never actually existed. The medieval times were an era where most people were serfs. Yes there was a weak central government but the tyranny of local landlords was widespread.


So it's like today, except we have internet.

I always find it amusing that people think that we have it so much better in the 21st century. Sure, we have stuff, and I like the modern world, but I think people of the year 3111 are going to look back at our era as we look back on the middle ages. Humans have always had a similar social structure to society, and frankly always will. There are even a few advantages of the 12th century as they had much more of an actual separation of society from the political than we do. Everything said or done in the 21st century is about politics. Everything you buy, everything you read, all of it is considered a part of the political state. In the middle ages, there were political issues and religious issues and cultural issues. No one would complain about a politically incorrect song, or a politically incorrect sermon. Hell, a king could be excommunicated if he was too abusive. Now, we have politicians who tell churches what to believe.
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