Three fifths a person explained. - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Early modern era & beginning of the modern era. Exploration, enlightenment, industrialisation, colonisation & empire (1492 - 1914 CE).
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By Wolfman
#13403665
The Quakers (group) considered slavery evil, but most of the Quakers (individuals) were against considering blacks full people. Considering my original statement was considering blacks people, this is not immaterial
By DanDaMan
#13403667
DDM, do you have any historical source (IE: letter, document, contemporary account) to back up your claim?
Yes. The Constitution, below....

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.
What you have to understand is that it was written in a way to REWARD the states for having more free persons.
The three fifths was a deterrent to keep the South from just buying more slaves to improve their representation.
Notice the Constitution makes no mention of "race". Just "free persons".

It's quit simple really... it's legal lingo devoid of race in order to force the South to succumb.
Last edited by DanDaMan on 29 May 2010 20:47, edited 1 time in total.
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By Fasces
#13403668
What you have to understand is that it was written in a way to REWARD the states for having more free persons.
The three fifths was a deterrent to keep the South from just buying more slaves to improve their representation.


No. Who proposed this be included? Why? What previous amendment did they use as the base for that proposal? Who proposed that? Why? What years?

Prove this was a northerner plot. Be intelligent, if only this once.

Quakers


Wolfman, the Quakers considered slaves to be people. They were very radical at the time, in politics and beliefs, which is why England was so quick to accept their proposal to leave and go to America.
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By Potemkin
#13403672
No. Who proposed this be included? Why? What previous amendment did they use as the base for that proposal? Who proposed that? Why? What years?

This is probably what DDM is using as a source, Fasces.
By DanDaMan
#13403674
No. Who proposed this be included? Why? What previous amendment did they use as the base for that proposal? Who proposed that? Why? What years?

Prove this was a northerner plot. Be intelligent, if only this once.
I can look but the proof is plain and simple... free black men in the North and South were not counted at three fifths.
The writing is not implicit... the application is.

It goes back to my position, stated many times on this forum, that you measure not what a government says... but what it actually DOES. It measured all free black men as ONE PERSON(s)

So there is your proof. Slave states were punished and free states were not.


PS... I purposely avoided Wiki on this subject because it's slanted to the Left.
Last edited by DanDaMan on 29 May 2010 21:32, edited 1 time in total.
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By Ombrageux
#13403676
PS... I purposely avoided Wiki on this subject because it's slanted to the Left.

Wow.

Seriously, see a doctor.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#13403686
PS... I purposely avoided reality on this subject because it's slanted to the Left.

Fixed it for you. :D
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By Lightman
#13403697
The Quakers (group) considered slavery evil, but most of the Quakers (individuals) were against considering blacks full people. Considering my original statement was considering blacks people, this is not immaterial

Image

Sure, there were few people who thought that black people and white people should live together, but many were concerned with their welfare as people.
User avatar
By Fasces
#13403743
DanDaMan: Who proposed (Name, state of residence) the 3/5 compromise at the Constitutional Convention in 1787 and why?
By DanDaMan
#13403765
Who proposed (Name, state of residence) the 3/5 compromise at the Constitutional Convention in 1787 and why?
According to one site... to be expedient.
User avatar
By Fasces
#13403780
Don't be incompetent. This is a simple task, like your job may require of you. Discriminate between sources, choose the best one, and give the the answer to my question with a citation to the source.
By DanDaMan
#13403911
It is ironic that it was a liberal northern delegate, James Wilson of Pennsylvania, who proposed the Three-Fifths Compromise, as a way to gain southern support for a new framework of government.
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/docume ... fm?doc=306

History
# A Northern delegate to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, James Wilson of Pennsylvania, proposed the compromise as a way to ensure Southern support for the new Constitution.
http://www.ehow.com/facts_5799144_three ... mise_.html

"Slavery, or an absolute and unlimited power in the master over life and fortune of the slave, is unauthorized by the common law... The reasons which we sometimes see assigned for the origin and the continuance of slavery appear, when examined to the bottom, to be built upon a false foundation. In the enjoyment of their persons and of their property, the common law protects all."
-James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution and U.S. Supreme Court Justice. James Wilson, The Works of James Wilson, Robert Green McCloskey, editor (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1967), Vol. II, pg. 605.



This was not easy to find through all the Liberal based garbage Google puts up first...
James Wilson, Pennsylvania Ratifying Convention 3--4 Dec. 1787 wrote:With respect to the clause restricting Congress from prohibiting the migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, prior to the year 1808, the honorable gentleman says that this clause is not only dark, but intended to grant to Congress, for that time, the power to admit the importation of slaves. No such thing was intended. But I will tell you what was done, and it gives me high pleasure that so much was done. Under the present Confederation, the states may admit the importation of slaves as long as they please; but by this article, after the year 1808, the Congress will have power to prohibit such importation, notwithstanding the disposition of any state to the contrary. I consider this as laying the foundation for banishing slavery out of this country; and though the period is more distant than I could wish, yet it will produce the same kind, gradual change, which was pursued in Pennsylvania.[
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders ... 9_1s6.html
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By The Immortal Goon
#13403988
DDM wrote:Interesting. Do tell us if the British abolitionists had the same reason?


Not all, but it passed in the UK because the UK lost all of their slave colonies and failed to pick up Haiti on the rebound. From there the rightwingers that wanted to retain slavery were able to be persuaded to join abolitionists because they could make quick political capital, but more importantly have an excuse to move ships in and stop other countries from getting slaves - which would hopefully give everyone the same disadvantage the UK suffered.

You'll note that during the American Civil War the Brits lost no time in colluding with the slave-owners given the chance, despite them patting themselves on the back for having attempted to ban slavery before.
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By Fasces
#13403994
From your sources we can deduce two things:

1. It was proposed by a Northerner for the purpose of winning over Southern states.

2. It had Southern support.

So the south ended up not having full representation in Washington because they insisted slaves were property and not citizens.


You said as much. The North did insist slaves were property and not persons, and for this reason, thought they should not be counted.

Let's go back to the source you provided:

The three-fifths figure was the outgrowth of a debate that had taken place within the Continental Congress in 1783.


To receive a full answer then, we must know what this debate was. Your source points us to the right direction, though not explicitly. It is referring to the proposed Article XI to the Articles of Confederation that read:

all charges of war and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defnese, or general welfare, and allowed by the United States assembled shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the several colonies in proportion to the number of general inhabitants of every age, sex and quality, except Indians not paying taxes


It was a Southerner from Maryland, Samuel Chase, which proposed that this draft be altered to read "white inhabitants." He said black men were property, and thus should not be counted when distributing tax burden, much like horses or oxen were not counted as 'inhabitants either.' It was John Adams, a northerner, who said that tax burden should apply to all people, regardless of status, not just freedmen, because laborers produced taxable wealth, whether free or not. The southern argument followed that slaves were only a tool used in the production of wealth, not actual producers, and should not be counted.

http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org ... ation.html (Don't dare argue this is a "liberal" source.)

This is in 1783, four years before the later compromise. The southerners would win this argument through James Madison, who proposed that a 5-to-3 ratio be used instead (from your source). Read Article XI of the Articles of Confederation. A 5-to-3 ratio of slaves would be used to determine tax burden, but still be property.

In 1787, it was a question of representation in Congress. Northerners argued that slaves, being property, should not be represented in a Congress that would only represent free men. Southerners rejected this - slaves were people now, though they were not four years ago, and should be counted fully. This issue would be settled by Wilson, who would apply Madison's 3/5 rule, to the population issue. Wilson employed a southern solution in his proposal. The North was using the argument made by Southerners only four years previous when trying to distribute tax burden - that slaves were properties, not people, and should not be counted.

It was not the North depriving the South.
By DanDaMan
#13404132
From your sources we can deduce two things:

1. It was proposed by a Northerner for the purpose of winning over Southern states.
Correct. The only way to abolish slavery was to entice the South into the system so congress could later abolish slavery (20 years, I believe).
2. It had Southern support.
Correct. The South did like what the new country offered.

Quote:
So the south ended up not having full representation in Washington because they insisted slaves were property and not citizens.


You said as much. The North did insist slaves were property and not persons, and for this reason, thought they should not be counted.
That was the North USING the Souths position against them. The South insisted they were property and persons but the North was not going to allow that perversion of humanity to play out.

Let's go back to the source you provided:

Quote:
The three-fifths figure was the outgrowth of a debate that had taken place within the Continental Congress in 1783.


To receive a full answer then, we must know what this debate was. Your source points us to the right direction, though not explicitly. It is referring to the proposed Article XI to the Articles of Confederation that read:

Quote:
all charges of war and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defnese, or general welfare, and allowed by the United States assembled shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the several colonies in proportion to the number of general inhabitants of every age, sex and quality, except Indians not paying taxes


It was a Southerner from Maryland, Samuel Chase, which proposed that this draft be altered to read "white inhabitants." He said black men were property, and thus should not be counted when distributing tax burden, much like horses or oxen were not counted as 'inhabitants either.' It was John Adams, a northerner, who said that tax burden should apply to all people, regardless of status, not just freedmen, because laborers produced taxable wealth, whether free or not. The southern argument followed that slaves were only a tool used in the production of wealth, not actual producers, and should not be counted.
Correct. It was not in the Souths interest to have a large tax burden based on number of slaves (plus free persons) and slave holders that would have to pay higher taxes.

http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org ... ation.html (Don't dare argue this is a "liberal" source.)

This is in 1783, four years before the later compromise. The southerners would win this argument through James Madison, who proposed that a 5-to-3 ratio be used instead (from your source). Read Article XI of the Articles of Confederation. A 5-to-3 ratio of slaves would be used to determine tax burden, but still be property.
Correct. Slave owners (the taxpayers) now had a lower tax burden.

In 1787, it was a question of representation in Congress. Northerners argued that slaves, being property, should not be represented in a Congress that would only represent free men. Southerners rejected this - slaves were people now, though they were not four years ago, and should be counted fully. This issue would be settled by Wilson, who would apply Madison's 3/5 rule, to the population issue. Wilson employed a southern solution in his proposal. The North was using the argument made by Southerners only four years previous when trying to distribute tax burden - that slaves were properties, not people, and should not be counted.
Correct. The North used the Souths position against them to deny them the representation they wanted.

It was not the North depriving the South.
It was the North making the South eat their own words.
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By Fasces
#13405803
:lol: Not particularly. Debate is about convincing the audience, not the opponent.

You are an exceptionally clever troll. :lol:
By DanDaMan
#13406244
:lol: Not particularly. Debate is about convincing the audience, not the opponent.

You are an exceptionally clever troll. :lol:
I'll take that, and your failure to refute, as a compliment (touche') on my position. :p :D
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By Jordan9
#13530857
Surely, as students of history we should all realize that the situation in this, and in many other instances, is "both and" not "either or."

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