Napoléon - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Early modern era & beginning of the modern era. Exploration, enlightenment, industrialisation, colonisation & empire (1492 - 1914 CE).
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By Saint-Ex
#786057
As it seems throwing false evidences, unfortunate conjectures, and dishonorable comparisons is the favorit sport of a too great number of forumers here, I would like to submit the following information.

It follows post contents having deliberatly sought to establish commonalities between napoleonic wars and WWII, and/or Napoléon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler, and/or raising to the same level the condemnation napoleonic wars and WWII on one side, and Napoléon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler, can surely be subjects to.

This post is an attempt to prevent readers from getting lulled and lured by the shameful historic orientations and propaganda of some posters.

The following are random excerpts of some of the following URLs. You are invited to document yourself about Adolf Hitler and WWII (no directly-related URLs are reported), so that adequate « comparison » can be carried out.

You will find very interesting information regarding Napoleon's relationship to the Jewish people.

I personnally consider that regarding legacy, strictly nothing is to be retained regarding Adolf Hitler's « achievements », although they shall be remembered, so that they are prevented from ever happening again.

Napoléon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon
Napoleonic wars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Wars
Napoléon and the Jews: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_and_the_Jews
List of wars and disasters by death toll(2): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll
List of wars and disasters by death toll(1): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_events_by_death_count
Napoleonic Wars casualties*: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Wars_casualties

*It seems that the 9 million German deaths reported were actually 900,000


x x x


These figures include deaths of civilians from diseases, famine, and atrocities as well as deaths of soldiers in battle.

62,000,000 - World War II (1937–1945), (see World War II casualties)
36,000,000 - An Lushan Rebellion (756–763)
30,000,000–60,000,000 - Mongol Conquests (13th century)
25,000,000 - Manchu Conquest of Ming China (1616–1644)
20,000,000–50,000,000 - Taiping Rebellion (1851–1864)
17,000,000 - Timur Lenk's conquests (1370–1405)
15,000,000–66,000,000 - World War I (1914–1918) (see World War I casualties) note that the larger number includes Spanish flu deaths
10,000,000-25,000,000 - Sino-Japanese War (1931–1945)
5,000,000–9,000,000 - Russian Civil War (1917–1921)
3,800,000 - Second Congo War (1998–2004)
3,500,000–6,000,000 - Napoleonic Wars (1804–1815) (see Napoleonic Wars casualties)


x x x


Napoléon Bonaparte was born Napoleone Buonaparte (in Corsican, Nabolione or Nabulione) in the city of Ajaccio on Corsica on 15 August 1769.

His family were minor Italian nobility living in Corsica. The dominant influence of Napoleon's childhood was his mother, Maria Letizia Ramolino. Her firm discipline helped restrain the rambunctious Napoleon as a boy, nicknamed Rabullione (the "meddler" or "disrupter").

At age ten, Napoleon was admitted to a French military school at Brienne-le-Château, a small town near Troyes, on 15 May 1779. He had to learn to speak French before entering the school, which he spoke with a marked Italian accent throughout his life, and never learned to spell properly. Upon graduation from Brienne in 1784, Bonaparte was admitted to the elite École Royale Militaire in Paris, where he completed the two year course of study in only one year. Although he had initially sought a naval assignment, he studied artillery at the École Militaire. Upon graduation in September, 1785, he was commissioned as a second lieutenant of artillery, and took up his new duties in January 1786, at the age of 16. Continued later on...


x x x


The French Revolution abolished the different treatment of people according to religion or origin that existed under the monarchy; the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen guaranteed freedom of religion and free exercise of worship, provided that it did not contradict public order. At that time, most other European countries implemented measures restricting the rights of people from minority religions. The conquests of Napoleon Bonaparte had the effect to spread the modernist ideas of revolutionary France with respect to the equality of citizens and the rule of law.

Napoleon's personal attitude towards the Jews is not always clear, as he made a number of statements both in support and opposition to the Jewish people at various times. Historian Berel Wein in Triumph of Survival states that Napoleon was primarily interested in seeing the Jews assimilate, rather than prosper as a separate community: "Napoleon's outward tolerance and fairness toward Jews was actually based upon his grand plan to have them disappear entirely by means of total assimilation, intermarriage, and conversion." This ambivalence can be found in some of his first definitively recorded utterances on this subject in connection with the question of the treatment of the Alsace Jews and their debtors raised in the Imperial Council on April 30, 1806. He declared it dangerous to allow so large a preponderance of the Jews, who constituted a state within a state, in a part of the French empire bordering upon the territories of its enemies. A week later, however, he had reached a milder view, and in the same assembly declared against any persecution of them.

The net effect of his policies, however, significantly changed the position of the Jews in Europe, and he was widely admired by the Jews as a result. Starting in 1806, Napoleon passed a number of measures supporting the position of the Jews in the French Empire, including assembling a representative group elected by the Jewish community, the Sanhedrin. In conquered countries, he abolished laws restricting Jews to ghettos. In 1807, he made Judaism, along with Roman Catholicism and Lutheran and Calvinist Protestantism, official religions of France. Napoleon rolled back a number of reforms in 1808, declaring all debts with Jews annulled, reduced or postponed, which caused the Jewish community to nearly collapse. Jews were also restricted in where they could live, in hopes of assimilating them into society. These restrictions were eliminated again by 1811.

Though Napoleon's personal attitude towards the Jews is not certain, he was clearly also acting for political reasons. He hoped to use equality as a way of gaining advantage from discriminated groups, like Jews or Catholics. Both aspects of his thinking can be seen in a response to a physician who asked why he pressed for the emancipation of the Jews, after his exile in 1816:

My primary desire was to liberate the Jews and make them full citizens. I wanted to confer upon them aIl the legal rights of equality, liberty and fraternity as was enjoyed by the Catholics and Protestants. It is my wish that the Jews be treated like brothers as if we were all part of Judaism. As an added benefit, I thought that this would bring to France many riches because the Jews are numerous and they would come in large numbers to our country where they would enjoy more privileges than in any other nation. Without the events of 1814, most of the Jews of Europe would have come to France where equality, fraternity and liberty awaited them and where they can serve the country like everyone else.

During the siege of Acre in 1799, Napoleon prepared a proclamation declaring a Jewish state in Palestine, though he did not issue it. The siege was lost to the British, however, and the plan was never carried out. Some historians, including Nathan Schur in Napoleon and the Holy Land, believe that the proclamation was intended purely for propaganda purposes, and that Napoleon was not serious about the creation of a Jewish state.

Napoleon's indirect influence on the fate of the Jews was even more powerful than any of the decrees recorded in his name. By breaking up the feudal trammels of mid-Europe and introducing the equality of the French Revolution he effected more for Jewish emancipation than had been accomplished during the three preceding centuries. The consistory of Westphalia became a model for other German provinces until after the fall of Napoleon, and the condition of the Jews in the Rhine provinces was permanently improved as a consequence of their subjection to Napoleon or his representatives. Heine and Börne both record their sense of obligation to the liberality of Napoleon's principles of action, and the German Jews in particular have always regarded Napoleon as one of the chief forerunners of emancipation in Germany. When Jews were selecting surnames, some of them are said to have expressed their gratitude by taking the name of "Schöntheil," a translation of "Bonaparte," and legends grew up about Napoleon's activity in the Jewish ghettos.


x x x


... Continued Napoleon is credited with introducing the concept of the modern professional conscript army to Europe, an innovation which other states eventually followed.

In France, Napoleon is seen by some as having ended lawlessness and disorder in France, and that the Napoleonic Wars also served to export the Revolution to the rest of Europe; the movements of national unification and the rise of the nation state, notably in Italy and Germany, may have been precipitated by the Napoleonic rule of those areas.

The Napoleonic Code was adopted throughout much of Europe and remained in force after Napoleon's defeat. Professor Dieter Langewiesche of the University of Tübingen describes the code as a "revolutionary project" which spurred the development of bourgeois society in Germany by expanding the right to own property and breaking the back of feudalism. Langewiesche also credits Napoleon with reorganizing what had been the Holy Roman Empire made up of more than 1,000 entities into a more streamlined network of 40 states providing the basis for the German Confederation and the future unification of Germany under the German Empire in 1871.
By Spin
#786100
Wiki is not seen as a necessarily accurate source since it can be edited bt anyone, thus there is little point in referring to it for little more than a broad outline of events.
By Saint-Ex
#786115
To be also reviewed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-Wikipedia_disclaimers


x x x


Excerpts from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Who_writes_Wikipedia below:


x x x


The volunteer editors of the Wikipedia spend time checking that each new article and each change made to an existing article improves the article's quality. When an editor finds something that has been added to Wikipedia that should not have been, they will revert the article to the last version which they consider accurate. Different volunteers choose to focus on different fixes, such as countering systemic bias; fact and reference checking; fixing punctuation; and improving grammar.

Sometimes an article is vandalized, especially if it is about a high-profile subject or a topic of popular debate. In this case, experienced Wikipedians are quick to revert the page to its previous correct version.

Not all mistakes and vandalism are fixed right away. Especially in articles that not very many people read or edit, bad or messy information may remain until someone comes along to fix them. Many (but not all) articles that need attention have notices at the top alerting readers to the situation.


x x x


Most Wikipedia editors discuss article content in a friendly way, or quietly improve each others' work. Most mistakes or bad edits are corrected by someone noticing them and changing them back or cleaning them up. Publicly available tools like the recent changes page and personal watchlists help editors find bad edits without having to continually check all the pages on the site.

Some problems are more serious, including Vandalism (deliberate defacement or falsification), disputes which result in edit wars (where editors change an article back and forth and fight instead of discuss), and disruptive behavior. To deal with these cases, several hundred Wikipedia administrators have the power to protect (lock) articles, and to block individual editors. These administrators are elected by the community to enforce the site's policies and guidelines.

The administrator power is granted by a small number of bureaucrats and stewards, who in turn have been granted their power by developers - the volunteers (and two paid employees) who have physical or online access to the servers that power the site. The hardware that runs the site is owned by the Wikimedia Foundation, a charitable organization financed by your donations. The Board of Trustees and the site founder Jimmy Wales oversee all the projects of the foundation, not limited to the encyclopedias. They have largely delegated authority for arbitrating day-to-day disputes on the English Wikipedia to our local Arbitration Committee, a collection of appointed and elected volunteers who act like judges in a court. (You might think of the community of administrators as the local volunteer police force - they have special but limited powers, and their actions are subject to review by the court and by each other.)


x x x


If an article is being edited by people who hold different points of view, someone may place a notice at the top of the article indicating that it is the subject of a dispute about neutral point of view. To resolve the dispute, the interested editors will share their points of view on the article's talk page. They will attempt to reach consensus about how to edit so that both their perspectives are fairly represented. This allows Wikipedia to not only be a place of information, but also of collaboration.
By Saint-Ex
#786142
It seems the following passage has been removed from the initial post, for reasons I don't know.

Perhaps had I just forgotten to append it.

The passage enlightens Napoleon's first notable military actions, having taken place in (edited ->) 1793, in Toulon:

« Through the help of fellow Corsican Saliceti, he was appointed as artillery commander in the French forces besieging Toulon, which had risen in revolt against the Reign of Terror and was occupied by British troops. He formulated a successful plan: he placed guns at Point l'Eguillete, threatening the British ships in the harbour with destruction, thereby forcing them to evacuate. A successful assault of the position, during which Bonaparte was wounded in the thigh, led to the recapture of the city and a promotion to brigadier-general. »
User avatar
By Vanasalus
#786224
As it seems throwing false evidences, unfortunate conjectures, and dishonorable comparisons is the favorit sport of a too great number of forumers here, I would like to submit the following information.


Really! I somehow do not recall any recent discussion about Bonaparte in PoFo.

I hope the motivation behind your intentions is not about the recent uprising of French historians against French "official" history approach, which has been in effect for a long time under the cover of "historical revisionism".

Specifically speaking, Claude Ribbe , a French historian who has been recently appointed as a human rights commissioner by the prime minister, has openly criticized Bonaparte last November. Some sources are as follows:


Napoleon's genocide 'on a par with Hitler'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/26/wfra26.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/11/26/ixworld.html

Napoleon the inspiration for Hitler, says historian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1652906,00.html

Chirac shuns 'guilty' Napoleon
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/30/wfrance30.xml&ampp;sSheet=/news/2005/11/30/ixworld.html

He is not saying nice things. Not nice at all.
User avatar
By Adrien
#786432
This guy doesn't deserve to be called an "historian".

It's not even a matter of opinion about Napoléon's reign. It is completely ludicrous to judge a monarch of the 18th/19th century (be it Napoléon Ist or another one) with the moral standards of the 20th or 21st century. It's purely pointless, anti-historian and probably only useful when you're trying to be in the news.
By Saint-Ex
#786445
Vanasalus, mon cher ami, your reply is no surprise, as I was expecting you.

Saint-Ex wrote:It follows post contents having deliberatly sought to [raise] to the same level the condemnation napoleonic wars and WWII on one side, and Napoléon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler, can surely be subjects to.

Which I'm now re-phrasing, so that my english can a bit more correctly reveal itself to your dazzled eyes.

Saint-Ex wrote:It follows post contents having deliberatly sought to [raise] to the same level the condemnation napoleonic wars and WWII on one side, and Napoléon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler [on another], can surely be subject to.

You will have noticed, most importantly, that the s of subjects has gone. Hopla.

So, do I say that the « great N » and his legacy should remain unchallenged? Not at all. This is what Claude Ribbe is doing. Yet it seems you confer great importance to emphasizing my reluctance to agree on this.

Claude Ribbe was appointed by Dominque de Villepin, on the last 12/14/2005, at the « Human Rights Consultative Commission ».

Vanasalus wrote:[The] French "official" history approach, which has been in effect for a long time under the cover of "historical revisionism".

Can you elaborate on this? Please. These are serious alegations. Or I'm afraid your post will fall in the category of those I descrilbed as « false evidences » and « unfortunate conjectures ». Avoid reporting neo-Con sources and affiliates.

Also please write the « french "official" history approach », with a lowercase [f]. Uppercases apply to persons.
User avatar
By Vanasalus
#786650
Vanasalus, mon cher ami, your reply is no surprise, as I was expecting you.


Really? I wonder why... :roll:

Saint-Ex wrote:
It follows post contents having deliberatly sought to [raise] to the same level the condemnation napoleonic wars and WWII on one side, and Napoléon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler, can surely be subjects to.

Which I'm now re-phrasing, so that my english can a bit more correctly reveal itself to your dazzled eyes.

Saint-Ex wrote:
It follows post contents having deliberatly sought to [raise] to the same level the condemnation napoleonic wars and WWII on one side, and Napoléon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler [on another], can surely be subject to.

You will have noticed, most importantly, that the s of subjects has gone. Hopla.


I think our communication waves are not in resonance at all. You started your first post with the following paragraph: As it seems throwing false evidences, unfortunate conjectures, and dishonorable comparisons is the favorit sport of a too great number of forumers here, I would like to submit the following information. In my response, I just said that I do not recall any recent (past 1 year)Bonaparte discussion in PoFo, depicting him as a 19th century Hitler. If I do not remember correct, please refer the thread or those threads. That simple... Otherwise, please explain why you needed to write the first paragraph of your first post.

So, do I say that the « great N » and his legacy should remain unchallenged? Not at all. This is what Claude Ribbe is doing. Yet it seems you confer great importance to emphasizing my reluctance to agree on this.


No. I do not confer any importance to what your belief is. I just bring forth the opposite opinions(in this case, the comments of Mr. Ribbe) as a counter argument in order to bring plurality into topic. As a matter of fact, Bonaparte himself is one of a few French figures I respect. On the other hand, I do not find an approach like "Look friends. Mongols killed 60,000,000, Timurlenk 17,000,000, but Bonaparte just 6,000,000. See, how lovely person he was " is quite true or efficient tool for defending your own position.

At the end, Bonaparte was not a god, but a bare mortal. Like all mortals, he did good things as well as the vicious ones.

Vanasalus wrote:
[The] French "official" history approach, which has been in effect for a long time under the cover of "historical revisionism".

Can you elaborate on this? Please. These are serious alegations. Or I'm afraid your post will fall in the category of those I descrilbed as « false evidences » and « unfortunate conjectures ». Avoid reporting neo-Con sources and affiliates.


There it is. http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=50913
If it is needed, I can search for the original version of the declaration of those 19 prominent French historians.

Also please write the « french "official" history approach », with a lowercase [f]. Uppercases apply to persons.


Oh really? Lowercase??? Well, I am not an expert in English language rules. Apart from that, if it is a mistake, it seems you have made the same mistake 6 times in your in your first post.

If I am still wrong, embrace the fact that I am a physicist who has little respect and no interest in minute details in rules of English language as long as those details do not obscure the communication. If this Explanation does not suit you, then blame the German Language Course I took in my Youth, which left almost Nothing except an implicit Desire of using Capital Letters whenever I start writing a Noun. :lol:
By Spin
#787064
What you posted does not make wiki infallible. Administrators don't know everything and there is nothing to stop someone editing an article and changing the conent to fit in with their ideological view point.
By motojackal
#787080
Saint-Ex may be refering to to I post I made in defending Anglo Saxons, in which I mentioned both the Napoleonic and second world wars.

If he is refering to my post let him say so, I would be happy to explain what I said, rather than allow others to draw eronoius conclusions, due to someone elses fasle impression.
By Fernando
#787114
I repeat my previous opinion on Nap:

- Good general and lawmaker.
- Prototype of the modern dictator.
- Mass killer.
- War lover.

If you want to discuss some point let me know.

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