[Vasili Schmidt]

I'm tired of Polish chauvinists and their affiliates in the West basing their nationalist campaign upon imaginary "Polish Partitions." Their version of the events portrays Russian bear aggressively taking Polish land. However, the Sejm each and every time approved of the annexation. As Catherine II said, Russia annexed land what had previously been stolen from her by Lithuanians and Poles in the 14th century. The argument of Muscovy Rus is not Kievan Rus is bogus because until 1613, all of Moscow's rulers were of the Daniilovichi line of the Riurikid dynasty that traced its descent to the rulers of Kievan Rus. The Trinity Chronicle compiled at metropolitan Cyprian's court stated that all the principalities of Rus formed a single ecclesiastical community and that Moscow had replaced Kiev at its centre. Earlier, metropolitan Alexis of Kiev had transferred his seat to Vladimir.

Except for Kaunus, in every single former "Polish" guberniia within the Russian Empire, the majority of the population were either Malorussian or Byelorussian. Russian liberation of Malorussian and Byelorussian provinces was not only legal, it was also philosophically justified. In every of one of these Malorussian, Belorussian, and Lithuanian provinces, Poles were just a small albeit oppressive minority in that they owned the majority of the land. According to the 1897 Russian Census which can be found here:
http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_lan_97.php

Podolia: 81% Malorussian; 12% Jew; 3% Russian; 2.3% Polish
Kiev: 79% Malorussian; 12% Jew; 6% Russian; 2% Polish
Volhynia: 70% Malorussian; 13% Jew; 6% Polish; 6% German; 3.4% Russian
total population: 9.54 million

Mohilev: 82% Belorussian; 12% Jew; 3.4% Russian; 1% Polish
Minsk: 76% Belorussian; 16% Jew; 4% Russian; 3% Polish
Vitebsk: 53% Belorussian; 13% Russian; 11.6% Jew; 3.3% Polish
Grodno: 44% Belorussian; 22.6% Malorussian; 17.3% Jew; 10% Polish; 4.6% Russian;
Vilnius: 56% Belorussian, 17.5% Lithuanian, 12.7% Jew; 8% Polish
Kowno: 65% Lithuanian, 14% Jew; 9% Polish; 5% Belorussian; 2.5% Russian
total population: 10 million

[stannis]

I'm sick of Polish chauvinists too, I'd much rather Russian chauvinists

[Shade2]

The partitions were in 1772.
The data is from 1897.
And from Russian Empire which tried to destroy Polish nation.
What next ?
Nazi books on history ?

Except for Kaunus, in every single former "Polish" guberniia within the Russian Empire, the majority of the population were either Malorussian or Byelorussian.

Neither Ukrainians or Belarussians were Russians. Case closed.

The argument of Muscovy Rus is not Kievan Rus is bogus because until 1613, all of Moscow's rulers were of the Daniilovichi line of the Riurikid dynasty that traced its descent to the rulers of Kievan Rus. The Trinity Chronicle compiled at metropolitan Cyprian's court stated that all the principalities of Rus formed a single ecclesiastical community and that Moscow had replaced Kiev at its centre. Earlier, metropolitan Alexis of Kiev had transferred his seat to Vladimir.

The usual agit-prop slogans and inventions by any expansionistic slave empire.

[Vasili Schmidt]

The partitions were in 1772.

They only started in 1772. The 1772 "partition" was least significant.

The data is from 1897.

The ethnic proportion did not endure significant change. The only difference was the inclusion of Velikorusskii language. More often than not, speakers of Velikorusski were "Russified" Malorusskiye and Belorusskiye.

And from Russian Empire which tried to destroy Polish nation.

Nope. Even in the Vistula provinces, Polish were only 70% of the population.

Nazi books on history ?

How the fuck is a census from 19th century Russia comparable to Nazi literature? This is some inflammotory shit.

Neither Ukrainians or Belarussians were Russians. Case closed.

Nope. Maloruskiye = Little Russians. Belorusskiye = White Russians.

[Shade2]

The ethnic proportion did not endure significant change.

According to whom ? You ?

Even in the Vistula provinces, Polish were only 70% of the population.

Of course. Tsar refered to them as West Russia. I am certain they were legitimate provinces of Kievan Rus. As we all know due to objective history and statitistcs of Russian Empire Poles weren't a nation at all, but Germanised Russians who needed to be de-Germanised by Russification.

How the fuck is a census from 19th century Russia comparable to Nazi literature?

For starters both were racist states bent on destroying other national groups.

This is some inflammotory shit.

The more degenerate sources you use the more degenerate your language becomes.

Maloruskiye = Little Russians. Belorusskiye = White Russians.

Poles=Vistulans. What's next ? Using Nazi terminology and calling Poles untermenschen ?>

[Vasili Schmidt]

According to whom ? You ?

Eh, because in such guberniia as Kiev and Minsk there had always been a Malorussian and Belorussian majority along with a 10% minority of Jews. Common sense.

As we all know due to objective history and statitistcs of Russian Empire Poles weren't a nation at all, but Germanised Russians who needed to be de-Germanised by Russification.

You seem to be confusing Poles with Ukrainians and Belorussians. These latter groups by Slavophiles are considered to be part of the Russian people whose identity was distorted by polonization.

For starters both were racist states bent on destroying other national groups.

What do you call the Grand Duchy of Finland? I won't even go into the high degree of tolerance afforded by minorities in Russia.

more degenerate your language becomes

Reaction to your inflammatory comparison of Russia to Nazi Germany.

Poles=Vistulans. What's next

Eh, that is wrong. Polish language was a category in the census.

[Shade2]

Eh, because in such guberniia as Kiev and Minsk there had always been a Malorussian and Belorussian majority along with a 10% minority of Jews. Common sense.

You and common sense ? I didn't know Monthy Python was reactivated. No sources no discussion.
Thankfully you at least agree their weren't Russians there so Russia had no legitimacy towards its illegal agression and occupation of Commonwealth lands.

You seem to be confusing Poles with Ukrainians and Belorussians.

Sorry ? Ukrainians and Belarussians are to you Russians ?
And sorry again, but untill Poles beat the nose bloody red to the Russians, Russians claimed that Poles should be Russified also.

These latter groups by Slavophiles are considered to be part of the Russian people whose identity was distorted by polonization.

And the Slavophiles claimed that Poles are germanised and must return to "Slavdom" by russification. Of course Ukrainians were soooo Polonised that they fought with Poles in bloody conflicts several times.

I won't even go into the high degree of tolerance afforded by minorities in Russia.

Yeah right. Mass murder of Poles, sending Polish 10 year old children as slaves to Siberia for learning Polish, banning Ukrainian language is a proof of tolerance.

Reaction to your inflammatory comparison of Russia to Nazi Germany.

Correction:Russian Empire. A racist regime willing to destroy other nations, with similiar institutions of slave labour, gulags(concentration camps), secret police etc.

Eh, that is wrong. Polish language was a category in the census.

It was in General Governmetn also-and we all know what Nazis wanted to do with Poles. Their dreams and dreams of Russian Empire aren't so different when it comes to Poland and Polish people-both Russian Empire and Nazi Germany wanted to destroy Poland and destroy Polish nation.

[Vasili Schmidt]

No sources no discussion.

You're the one who is need of sources to support your implication that there were drastic ethnic changes in the Malorussian and Belorussian provinces by 1897.

Thankfully you at least agree their weren't Russians there so Russia had no legitimacy towards its illegal agression and occupation of Commonwealth lands.

It was not illegal. The Sejm approved of each partition.

Sorry ? Ukrainians and Belarussians are to you Russians ?

Yes.

And the Slavophiles claimed that Poles are germanised and must return to "Slavdom" by russification.

I have never heard such a claim. This sounds like romantic Polish propaganda.

Of course Ukrainians were soooo Polonised that they fought with Poles in bloody conflicts several times.

Ukrainians fought against Poles e.g Khmelnytsky.

Mass murder of Poles

Translates to deaths of insurgents in the context of violent rebellion.

sending Polish 10 year old children as slaves to Siberia

Nonesense. People like Lenin were sent to Siberia.

It was in General Governmetn also-and we all know what Nazis wanted to do with Poles.

In every discussion you resort to the ridiculous elementary comparison to Nazi Germans.

[Shade2]

You're the one who is need of sources to support your implication that there were drastic ethnic changes in the Malorussian and Belorussian provinces by 1897.

You are the one who needs sources to support your claim that the ethnic situation wasn't unchanged despite massive ethnic cleansing campaign made by Russian Empire in regards to Polish population and settlement of Russian nobles in territories it took.

It was not illegal. The Sejm approved of each partition.

1.Any voting under threat of force or imprisoment is illegal.
2.Sejm didn't approve each of the conditions. In protest the deputies refused to vote. Then Russians declared it meant agreement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grodno_Sejm

The Sejm was held in New Castle in Grodno in presence of Russian garrison stationed in and around the New Castle and commanded by Russian ambassador to Poland, Jakub Johann Sievers, to ensure the obedience of all deputies; dissidents were threaten with beatings, arrests, sequestration or exile[3]. Many deputies were not allowed to speak, and the main issue on the agenda was the project of 'Eternal[4] Alliance of Poland and Russia', sent to the Sejm by Russian Tsarina Catherine the Great, and presented to the Sejm as the 'request of Polish people' by the Polish supporters of Russia. Nonetheless out of 140 deputies present about 25 vocally protested against the proposal, especially against the Prussian territorial demands. However with further threats and actions by Russians, on 14 October 1793 the alliance was passed by "acclamation". In fact, after a long debate, around 4 a.m., with Russian forces present and preventing anybody from leaving the room, the marshal of the Sejm asked three times if there is agreement to pass the act. When not a single deputy spoke, Józef Ankwicz, another known supporter of foreign powers, declared that it was as unanonimous vote of support[5] ("He who is silent means agreement"[6]). It was not the first time Russian Empire used such strategy: the fate of the Grodno Sejm resembled that of the Sejm Niemy of 1717 - where the only person allowed to speak was the marshal of the Sejm or the Repnin Sejm of 1767-1768, where opponents of Russian intervention were arrested and exiled to Russia[7].

Yes.

You deny people their cultural identity, self-determination, history, and existance as seperate nations despite the fact that they have lived completely different lives and cultures then Russia, for example being saved from being incorporated into Mongol Empire. This is very appealing and I solidarise with Ukrainian and Belarussian people who resist such attempts to deny their existance.

I have never heard such a claim. This sounds like romantic Polish propaganda.

Read diaries of Dostoyevski from 1877-1881 where he clearly writes about this.

Ukrainians fought against Poles e.g Khmelnytsky.

As well as against Russians.

Translates to deaths of insurgents in the context of violent rebellion.

Yes, infants, women and elderly butchered by Russian soldiers were "insurgents" -a nice example of collective punishment applied by Mongolian despotism towards people it can't conquer and enslave.

Nonesense.

Children as young as 10year old were sentence to exile in Siberia for learning Polish language and history.
http://www.tygodnik.com.pl/apokryf/14/lubienski.html
Wyroki wobec gimnazjalistów, dzieci przecież, były naprawdę okrutne: w kajdanach powieziono ich na Syberię.
"Sentences towards gymnasialists, children, were really cruel, they were sent in chains to Siberia"

In every discussion you resort to the ridiculous elementary comparison to Nazi Germans.

Many traits,beliefs and methods are similar to Russian Imperialists. Racists ideology(Slavophilism-Nazism), methods(ethnic cleansing),institutions(gulags-concentration camps), organisations(Gestapo-Okhranka) and the same racist hatred towards Polish people combined with desire to destroy Poland and Polish nation.

[Vasili Schmidt]

This is very appealing and I solidarise with Ukrainian and Belarussian people who resist such attempts to deny their existance.

I'm going by the 1897 Russian census. Velikorusskiye, Maloruskiye, and Belorusskiye were all part of the Russian category.

Yes, infants, women and elderly butchered by Russian soldiers were "insurgents" -a nice example of collective punishment applied by Mongolian despotism towards people it can't conquer and enslave.

For the January insurrection, retributions amounted to 400 executions after judicial procedures and the confiscation of 1600 estates from the oppressive Polish landlords.

Source: "The Lands of Partitioned Poland", Piotr Wandycz

Racists ideology(Slavophilism-Nazism)

Untrue. For example, Jews who assimilated and converted to Orthodoxy could become successful. By comparison, a mischling by the Nazis would not be spared.

methods(ethnic cleansing)

When was there ethnic cleansing in Russian Empire?

institutions(gulags-concentration camps)

Translates to insitutitions of punishment for hardened criminals which is what labour camps have been used for throughout Russian history.

organisations(Gestapo-Okhranka)

This is too broad of a comparison. Most countries have covert intelligence agencies.

and the same racist hatred towards Polish people combined with desire to destroy Poland and Polish nation.

The fact that the Polish nobility owned the majority of the land in the Malorussian and Belorussian provinces in the Russian Empire refutes this depiction of Poles as victims.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

There ought to be a specific thread for the two of you.

[Kiroff]

There was. You rouned it.

[Shade2]

I'm going by the 1897 Russian census. Velikorusskiye, Maloruskiye, and Belorusskiye were all part of the Russian category.

And in 1941 cenzus in Germany Poles were in subhuman category. Regimes invent many things to justify there slavery over others.
The partitions were over 100 years before anyway.

For the January insurrection,

The butchering of 20,000 civilians, infants, elderly and women was made in Warsaw by Russian soldiers in 1794.

Untrue. For example, Jews who assimilated and converted to Orthodoxy could become successful.

Thanks for pointing out that Russian Empire practiced religious intolerance.

By comparison, a mischling by the Nazis would not be spared.

Substantial parts of population were to be Germanised, just as in Russian Empire Belarussians, Poles, Ukrainians were to be Russified.
Even Fins were subject to Russification.

When was there ethnic cleansing in Russian Empire?

After 1794 when thousands of Polish families were ethnicly cleansed from territiories of First and Second Partition to South of Russia.
Historia 1789-1871. Anna Radziwiłł, Wojciech Roszkowski.

Translates to insitutitions of punishment for hardened criminals which is what labour camps have been used for throughout Russian history.

Hardened criminals=10 year old children learning Polish.
Disgusting example of Mongolian despotism.

This is too broad of a comparison. Most countries have covert intelligence agencies.

But not organised antisemitic organisation aimed at enforcin g slavery of other nations.

The fact that the Polish nobility owned the majority of the land in the Malorussian and Belorussian provinces in the Russian Empire refutes this depiction of Poles as victims.

80% of Poles were peasants. Land was owned by Russians after parititions and uprisings.

[Vasili Schmidt]

I won't even bother anymore. Your arguments are always so absurd.

And in 1941 cenzus in Germany Poles were in subhuman category.

I don't think there was even a 1941 census in Germany.

Regimes invent many things to justify there slavery over others.

Like "Russo-Mongol" hate speech in order to justify slavery of the borderlands.

The butchering of 20,000 civilians, infants, elderly and women was made in Warsaw by Russian soldiers in 1794.

In reaction to the massacre of thousands of young Russian boys conscripted into the army. Plus, 5000 Russians were slaughtered as Klushino in 1610. 3000 Russians blew themselves up during the Siege of Smolensk due to the Polish rampage.

Thanks for pointing out that Russian Empire practiced religious intolerance.

This is a half truth at best.

As part of this effort, the tsarina forced the Russian Orthodox Church to stop seeking new converts in Muslim lands and accept a kind of religious pluralism.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/20 ... 03ca5.html

Besides, in Union of Brest, Poles forceably brought Orthodox Church under subordination of the Pope.

Substantial parts of population were to be Germanised, just as in Russian Empire Belarussians, Poles, Ukrainians were to be Russified.

Just as substantial parts of the Malorussian and Belorussian provinces under Polish control were polonized.

Even Fins were subject to Russification.

The census certainly does not reflect that. In Finland, there were only 15,000 Russian speakers. In the Privilinskie districts, there were only 95,000 speakers of Velikorusskii out of a total population of 7.24 million.

After 1794 when thousands of Polish families were ethnicly cleansed from territiories of First and Second Partition to South of Russia.

Out of 8 million Poles, there were 5.7 million in Privilinskiye districts and 1 million the Malorusian and Belorussian districts. Only 30,000 were found in Sibiria.

Hardened criminals=10 year old children learning Polish.
Disgusting example of Mongolian despotism.

As it stands, other than anecdotal rumours, you lack any substantial evidence of this. Throughout Russian history, labour camps have been for criminals serving a sentence.

80% of Poles were peasants. Land was owned by Russians after parititions and uprisings.

25% of Poles were szlachta. 8% of the Commonwealth were szlachta. Virtually all szlachta were Poles.

60% of the manorial estates in the guberniias of Vilna, Grodno, and Kowno belonged to Poles. Less than half in Minsk, Vitebsk, and Mohilev were owned by Poles. Poles owned 41% of manorial land in Volhynia, 53% in Kiev, and 41% in Podolia. To show perspective, Poles were 3% of the population of Vitebsk.

[Red Star]

Please promise that from now on you will keep all Polish vs Russian stuff to this thread.

For the love of all that's holy, think of the children.

[Mikolaj]

This reminds me, it's time to look at the "Polish-Angels" site

[Shade2]

I don't think there was even a 1941 census in Germany.

There was a population count in 1941 by The German Statistical Office in regards to ethnic group within German state.

Like "Russo-Mongol" hate speech in order to justify slavery of the borderlands.

I don't understand ? Euroasianist Russians openly declare that Russia is a Mongol creation. Does mean you believe Russian euroasiainsts whant to have inspiration from Mongol tradition to occupy other countries ?

In reaction

What reaction ? Do you again claim that either Russia used a despotic collective punishment for its failed occupations by murdering innocent children and elderly ? Or were Russian Empire's troops undisciplined gangs that went on massive killing sprees ?

In reaction to the massacre of thousands of young Russian boys conscripted into the army

Russia used children as occupational troops ? How uncivilised and repulsive, and how despotic at the same time.

. 3000 Russians blew themselves up

Is this the result of Russian contacts with Muslim world and cultural exchange that result in use of Al-quada tactics of suicide bombing already used by Russian Empire in the time period you speak of ?

This is a half truth at best.

Catholics, Jews, Unites were all discriminated by Russian Empire.

Just as substantial parts of the Malorussian and Belorussian provinces

There were no "Malorussian" provinces in Poland.

The census certainly does not reflect that.

The census can speak only about if the despotic policy of Russification failed or not.

Out of 8 million Poles, there were 5.7 million in Privilinskiye districts and 1 million the Malorusian and Belorussian districts. Only 30,000 were found in Sibiria.

Possibly only 30,000 survived the brutal and murderous trip in chains to Siberia. Besides as usual you give no sources and it is as likely you invented yourself the data.

As it stands, other than anecdotal rumours, you lack any substantial evidence of this.

The sadistic treatment of Polish children by Russian Empire was documented by Polish artist Adam Mickiewicz

Małe chłopcy, znędzniałe, wszyscy jak rekruci

z golonymi głowami na nogach okuci.

Biedne chłopcy, najmłodszy dzesięć lat nieboże

Skarżył się, że łańcucha podźwignąć nie może...”

Little boys, miserable, all look like recruits, with shaved heads and chains on their feet, the poor boy at most ten years old complains that he can't carry his chain.
The brutal, sadistic and murderous treatment of innocent Polish children by sadistic Russian state is known to every Polish schoolchild.

Virtually all szlachta were Poles.

80% of Poles were peasants. Virtually all Poles were thus non-szlachta members.

[Kiroff]

This reminds me, it's time to look at the "Polish-Angels" site

What's that?

[Vasili Schmidt]

It's pitiful how Shade2 must always try to get in the last word. I will not even bother anymore as you lack any rational arguments.

[Shade2]

It's pitiful how Shade2 must always try to get in the last word. I will not even bother anymore as you lack any rational arguments.

Its pitifull how Vasili Schmidt is unable to engage in any rational discussion and is limited to miserable propaganda that has no basis in reality and can only be laughed at.
Such absurd claims as that Russia had right to Kalingrad because it is an "ancient Slavic territory"(neither was it "Slavic" at any time in its history, and neither Russia has right to enslave people of Slavic origins") belong to Monthy Python episode on Russian nationalism.