[Thunderhawk]

Generaly, all fleets are massive holes into which one pours money. Mahan's notion of economic gain was incorrect- as I've suggested above.

I look at British and French history, and have a hard time see that.

As for forcing open a market, any armed ship can handle that function so long as it is clear that the fleet backing it is superior.

Ports can refuse harbour, they can shell enemy ships.
Taking down a port's fortress takes endurance and power. Larger shippers are able to carry bigger weapons (be it cannon or strike craft) and sustain more damage.

[ZeusIrae]

I look at British and French history, and have a hard time see that.

Well,you probably look at the british history,french navy's history is the story of a huge blackhole sucking everthing.The british had less problem since they didn't have a strong army,they could concentrate on the navy.

Even today,building a navy is huge investment.Each ship cost several billions even without counting devloppment cost.Security gains are clear but economic ones?

[MB.]

Taking down a port's fortress takes endurance and power. Larger shippers are able to carry bigger weapons (be it cannon or strike craft) and sustain more damage.

I look at British and French history, and have a hard time see that.

Too much Red Alert, me thinks.

Port sieges are complex affairs changing in complexity and methods over the course of recorded history.

Small ships, such as bomb vessles or siege barges are best used for sieging ports, ala the French at Sevestapol, or the English at Copenhagen. The using a Ship of Line- or battleship or what have you- for siege duty is a costly and pointless affair. The fleet could most likely be used elsewhere, and again, smaller craft are better suited to the task anyway. The British failure to force the Dardanelles with Battleships explains my point.

As for the RN, it bankrupted England. There's a reason said country never economically surpassed its 19th C status during the 20th C... ships cost an enormous amount of cash. It was well known during the German naval expansion program that the RN could not possibly hope to keep up with the Germans given infinite time- the Second Riech's economic and Industrial power was simply far too vast.

[Thunderhawk]

Too much Red Alert, me thinks.

Mainly a Renegade fan, and RA2 land battles.

Port sieges are complex affairs changing in complexity and methods over the course of recorded history.

small ships, such as bomb vessles or siege barges are best used for sieging ports, ala the French at Sevestapol, or the English at Copenhagen.

Big-gun ships with endurance eh?
They arent lineships, and neither are carriers, but they are big gun ships none the less.

[MB.]

Larger shippers are able to carry bigger weapons

Sorry, the term "big gun" is usually used only in conjunction with that of the Battleship. That is, the revolutionary modern version of the breech-loaded gun developed in colusion with slow burning cordite.

It's a specific term.

[Thunderhawk]

If I remember the Seveastapol siege right, it strikes me as gimic that worked. French turtle ships were technologically ahead of what the Russians had or new how to counter.
Technological disparity affects tactics and doctrines too.

Torpedo, exploding shells, etc.. effectively put large fire power weapons (big guns :P) onto smaller craft. Good for offence, but not defence. Mahon doctrine was about establishing and holding possessions by naval means.


A destroyer defending a convoy is at a disadvantage when attacked by a sub - but a sub being attacked by a detroyer is worse off. Larger craft have (had) the endurance to survive an encounter and eventually scare off the attacker, while keepnig their protected item safe. The sub will leave with minimal damage, while a destroyer could be badly damaged yet remains, and the goods trade would continue.




Can raiders establish and protect an empire ?

Fast agile raiders will always have the advantge in hit and run and will always have the disadvantage in protracted combat.

Defenders dont pick the time and place of an enemy attack, so they the ability to survive the initial strike is needed. That means endurance, and that usually goes hand in hand with being a bigger ship.


Small little skirmish by the Falklans in WW1 testifies to that.

Destroying a target (ie the actions of a raisder) is not much in the way of power projection.

Capturing/taking a target, surviving and building upon that is power prokection IMO.