What was Napoleon's plans for Europe? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Early modern era & beginning of the modern era. Exploration, enlightenment, industrialisation, colonisation & empire (1492 - 1914 CE).
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#1216422
As we all know napoleon dominated most of Europe with his large military. Most of the continent was under his direct control as satellite states that were controlled by people like his son (Kingdom of Italy). Do you think he primarily wanted France to simply dominate the continent or did he really want to give Europe revolutionary ideals or was it both? I personally think it was a bit of both.
User avatar
By redcarpet
#1216836
A continental empire, with domestic policies like that he pursued in France, etc.
User avatar
By Zagadka
#1216861
Hm.

Certainly, there was some revolutionary effect, leading to revolts across Europe in... '28 and '47 and some smallers? Anyway, the revolutionary ideas of the original French revolution were brought back to their home countries - The fall of the Romanovs could be said to be triggered by soldiers bringing home revolutionary ideas.

As for what he intended... to be Caesar, probably ruling in much the same manner.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#1216900
Certainly, there was some revolutionary effect, leading to revolts across Europe in... '28 and '47 and some smallers? Anyway, the revolutionary ideas of the original French revolution were brought back to their home countries - The fall of the Romanovs could be said to be triggered by soldiers bringing home revolutionary ideas.

It took a while, but I would agree with that. The Decembrist revolt was certainly a direct result of the War of 1812. Within three or four generations, the autocracy was gone.

As for what he intended... to be Caesar, probably ruling in much the same manner.

Agreed. The French Revolution self-consciously saw itself as recapitulating the history of the Roman Republic and Empire. The French Republic had reached breaking point by 1799, and it was obvious that it could not last. Napoleon self-consciously played the part of Caesar, dispersing the last remnants of the Republic and imposing a new order.
User avatar
By Ombrageux
#1216906
I'm intrigued by the notion that the French Revolution and Napoleon spread revolutionary ideas, but I think it's probably a little much to draw causation between the revolution and upheavals 50 or 100 years later.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#1216914
I'm intrigued by the notion that the French Revolution and Napoleon spread revolutionary ideas, but I think it's probably a little much to draw causation between the revolution and upheavals 50 or 100 years later.

I disagree. There is a clear causal link between the 1812 War and the Decembrist revolt of 1825. And that revolt became the shining beacon for almost all the revolutionary forces in Russia from that moment until 1917. It is impossible to overrate the importance of the Decembrists in Russian political and artistic culture of the 19th century. There is a clear, unbroken thread linking the invasion of 1812 to the revolutions of 1917. Seriously.
User avatar
By Thunderhawk
#1216967
I would add, look at what actually happened.

In an age where emperors and kings ruled, these rulers were replaced not with another king or emperor, but a psuedo-republic. Napoleon later took the crown himself, but for a while there was no king yet the country and the world continued on. In an era where monarchs were either absolute, wielded large amounts of power, or simply had the cash to do as they wished with the people/country, the ability to remove the whole lot and not have the country fall into destruction was something unthinkable.

It was done internally, without the need of massive foreign support. Other nations had aided here and there to help screw the French, but the revolution was still a French one - internal.

It was supported and fueled by the commonman. Not a civil war of nobles vs king with the commonman being fodder and stepped upon, but a war where the common man could and sucessfully did alter the politics at the top, and the system itself. Not a labouror uprising to over throw capitalism, but still revolutionary - and it worked.


Such ideas succeeding together made the revolution not simply noteworthy, but demonstrarted that things can change from within and stand up to the pressures. The thoughts were around for ages, but how many attempts were tried and failed miserably? How many never tried because it was "obvious" they would loose?

France was the demonstration that things can change if your organized.

.. I *suspect* the history with France also shaded the comintern ideas of global revolution. - France was defeated by outside forces, and Napoleon rose to monarchist power because he was needed to fend off those outside forces. If the world over was in revolution there would be little to no outside forces hindering or stopping the revolutionaries and strongmen would be few and temporary.




P.S.
Depending on how idealized a look you take, the revolution did not loose. It was usurped into a Napoleonic monarchy and it was that monarchy that lost, the revolutionaries did not.
By Unperson-K
#1217123
Napoleon, in my opinion, paid only lip service to the ideals of the French revolution. Napoleon was a leader whose style was far closer to that of the ancien regime than to that of the Republic.

It took a while, but I would agree with that. The Decembrist revolt was certainly a direct result of the War of 1812. Within three or four generations, the autocracy was gone.


Tolstoi certainly caw it that way in War and Peace: he held that the invasion had brought the officers closer together with the men who served under them. This led to a desire to reform the Russian Empire with the aim of improving living conditions for the lower classes, the abolition of serfdom being the central focus of their concerns. However, the autocracy had no desire to reform to this extent and so the reform minded nobles turned towards outright rebellion.

This is the orthodox view. However, I feel it is somewhat too simplistic.

It is not as if Russian officers had never served with their men for long periods of time before: the earlier eighteenth century had been full of long wars and many of the nobility in the military served in their regiments for most of their lives. Noble state service was obligatory and permanent in Russia from the reign of Peter the Great until 1762/1785, although Empress Anna did elevate some of the harsher elements of Peter's system in 1736 by increasing the age from which service was due (from 15 to 20) and by limiting the length of service (from life to 25 years). Even when abolished, economic, social and cultural factors meant that most of the nobility continued to serve for long periods of time. However, the Russian educated classes (so far as the average Russian nobleman was educated in the eighteenth century) showed very few signs of desiring the abolition of serfdom or challenging the autocracy.

I also doubt that the 1812 invasion spread ideas into Russia: Napoleon did not (much to the relief of the autocracy) promise the abolition of serfdom and the few promises he made were vague. It wasn’t as if he marched it Russia towing big carts full of Jean Jacques Rousseau’s treatises to use as propaganda.

The reason I think that the Russian nobility reacted to the 1812 invasion with such a spirit of humanistic enlightenment was because the educational and cultural reforms of Peter the Great were, a century after their imposition, finally coming into effect in Russia. As more and more nobles received a European style education (which occurred because more and more educational establishments were running and they in turn produced more educated people who could pass on their education to their children and the children of others), desire for European ideas and literature increased amongst the nobility. By the end of the eighteen century, the Russian provincial printing press network was finally up to the standards of providing the standard philosophical, scientific, political and fictional texts of the European Enlightenment on a wide scale. So, the ideas that had been prevalent in Europe during the last half of the eighteenth century finally caught on in Russia on a wide scale during the first two decades of the nineteenth century. Napoleon's invasion did not cause the proliferation of radical ideas in Russia: it simply coincided with them and perhaps made easier the process of noblemen empathising with their serf brethren in the name of national unity.

Thus, I do not see the invasion of 1812 as the main, or even a major, causal factor in the Decembrist Revolt of 1825: I believe that it was more to do with the fact that education and intellectual life in Russia had finally reached a stage of maturity that occurred separately of the 1812 invasion and had its roots in the policies of the two reforming rulers of Russia (by whom I mean Peter I and Catherine II) in the eighteenth century.

https://rickroderick.org/302-heidegger-an[…]

I trust Biden with my country, I wouldn't go as[…]

@Pants-of-dog the tweets address official statem[…]

No dummy, my source is Hans Rosling. https://en.[…]