Against the AK 47 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Traditional 'common sense' values and duty to the state.
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By keso
#14398384
"I do not believe in taking away the right of the citizen for sporting, for hunting and so forth or home defense. But I do believe an AK-47, a machine gun, is not a sporting weapon nor needed for home defense."


http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1989/Reaga ... a1a1dfddec

An interesting first quote. Let's follow up this first quote with a second quote.

“I – like most Americans – believe that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual the right to bear arms,” Obama said. “I think we recognize the traditions of gun ownership passed on from generation to generation, that hunting and shooting are part of a cherished national heritage.

“But I also believe that a lot of gun owners would agree that AK-47s belong in the hands of soldiers and not in the hands of crooks. They belong on the battlefield of war, not on the streets of our cities,” he added.


http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012 ... 30141.html

The second quote was by Barack Obama. The first quote was by Ronald Reagan.

Which one was framed as the anti-gun president?
By Decky
#14398636
It is almost like Obama is right winger who is no diferent from a Republican in anyway. The only reason that Republicans hate him is his blackness, if they judged him based on his policy they would love him.
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By Solastalgia
#14398650
Decky wrote:It is almost like Obama is right winger who is no diferent from a Republican in anyway. The only reason that Republicans hate him is his blackness, if they judged him based on his policy they would love him.


It's not that Obama is "almost like" - he is conservative... At least when it comes to economics. I mean, obviously Obama is socially liberal, but fiscally one of the most conservative presidents ever.

Obama: Most Fiscally Conservative President in Modern History?

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ry/254658/
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By Joe Liberty
#14399700
Spending less than Reagan and Bush doesn't make one "conservative". All it does is show that "conservatives" aren't the small-government types they want us to believe they are.
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By Solastalgia
#14400444
Joe Liberty wrote:Spending less than Reagan and Bush doesn't make one "conservative". All it does is show that "conservatives" aren't the small-government types they want us to believe they are.


Cutting government spending is seen as a "conservative" position in this country.
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By Dagoth Ur
#14400455
It's a talking point but it is an absurdity. Nobody can just magically spend less, and nobody is inclined (since most of the actually frivolous spending benefits Conservative Liberal politicians as much as Left Liberal politicians).
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By nucklepunche
#14407697
Conservative and liberal are all becoming meaningless in the end. Its all perception. Really you must remember that there are very few true conservatives in American politics and America was founded on an anti-Tory revolution. There were some Tory tendencies in Adams and Hamilton but the small government conservatism ascendant today is deeply Jeffersonian, Jefferson being a classical liberal enemy of Toryism. Indeed if we were to describe the two leading tendencies in American politics today in political science terms they would be classical liberalism and social liberalism.

The only thing that might make American conservatism not "liberal" is the tying in of religious values not seen in European classical liberalism. However these religious values are generally low church fundamentalist in orientation and would be unrecognizable to the high church Toryism of Britain. Indeed it could be said that fundamentalism and anti-statism (except of course wherein the state was used to enforce fundamentalist values) have gone hand in hand in America.

This also shows how partisanship has calcified over time. It was once considered non-controversial for a Republican, even one an icon of the right, to espouse moderate positions on gun control. Today politicians criticizing assault weapons are met with arguments that even if they don't "need" assault weapons the second amendment still grants an unlimited right to own them (although a look back on history shows that gun regulations were in place from the very start).

Personally my view of the Second Amendment is that it must be taken in context of the time. It was written at a time when the idea of even having a standing army (which we now definitely have) was controversial. It was intended to protect the right of citizens to bear arms as part of a state or local militia, something that was seen as necessary in the fragile America of that era, especially on the frontier. It was not intended to protect an individual right to bear arms per se but was linked with collective defense. Like much of the Constitution it was a reaction against traditions of absolutist monarchs.

Absolutist monarchs tended to maintain an elite military that was deeply intertwined with the upper classes whereas the framers of the Bill of Rights (mostly anti-Federalists who accepted the Constitution only with its inclusion) favored a citizens' militia composed of yeomen farmers. This was essentially the Jeffersonian utopian view of the military. The Jeffersonians envisioned basically a defense system similar to Switzerland in which all able bodied men would make up a part time militia and in which full time professional military service would not exist at all, except in the form of a Navy to protect national waters (note the Constitution mentions a Navy and no other branch of the military save the militia). It was in this context that the Second Amendment arose.

Thus I believe that from a legislative standpoint the state cannot ban guns outright even if the "citizens' militia" idea has largely given way over time (the national guard has expanded largely beyond these duties). However regulation is acceptable up to a certain level. How much regulation is necessary is a political question and not a constitutional one. However none of the regulations proposed in the gun debate by the mainstream center-left would be unconstitutional under any definition short of right-wing judicial activism.

As for me the "line" of what is acceptable in civilian hands is drawn between offensive and defensive weapons. I think there is a right to own a hunting rifle or even a handgun for defensive purposes but I don't believe people have the right to own tanks. The questions that are up in the air are of things like AK-47s although I believe these weapons can be used in defense they are primarily offensive in nature. As for defensive weapons I don't think licensing and registration requirements are necessarily out of question although I don't think something even that mild is politically feasible in America.
Last edited by nucklepunche on 17 May 2014 05:46, edited 1 time in total.
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By Rei Murasame
#14407700
nucklepunche wrote:However these religious values are generally low church fundamentalist in orientation and would be unrecognizable to the high church Toryism of Britain. Indeed it could be said that fundamentalism and anti-statism (except of course wherein the state was used to enforce fundamentalist values) have gone hand in hand in America.

This. Well said. Without understanding that, it would be impossible to understand the weirdness which is America. Conservatives in the US are trying to conserve a strange combination of radical liberalism and low-church dissenting protestantism.

See also: [Link]
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By nucklepunche
#14407707
Rei Murasame wrote:This. Well said. Without understanding that, it would be impossible to understand the weirdness which is America. Conservatives in the US are trying to conserve a strange combination of radical liberalism and low-church dissenting protestantism.


This is why we need to settle on coherent definitions of ideological labels. For me "conservatism" when spoken of in an American context simply means this, which is why I often describe it specifically as "American conservatism" although I consider the "conservatism" therein to be purely vernacular. However what conservatism means to me in an academic sense is a philosophy believing in the organic unity of society and importance of social institutions in governing behavior and also the importance of tradition in maintaining social institutions.

Thus conservatism for me is often linked with a defense of monarchy and high church ecclesiology in either a Roman Catholic or high church Anglican tradition. It is accepting of differences in social class while at the same time respecting noblesse oblige, the idea that the upper classes in some sense owe something to the lower classes and also a skepticism of laissez-faire capitalism wherein it threatens the established social order. To the true Tory big box stores and the loss of blue collar manufacturing to unskilled overseas labor are an abomination and not something to be celebrated as paragons of the free market. It is a tradition favoring the paramount importance of the nation state and is thus skeptical that multi-culturalism or mass immigration can ever work. Such a tradition simply does not exist in any meaningful form in America.

The peculiarity of American conservatism is relatively new, ironically considering conservatism seeks to preserve the old. Please note old line American conservative Peter Viereck's thought as opposed to modern conservative thought. Now in the past American fundamentalism was historically populist and somewhat anti-big business in its orientation, think William Jennings Bryan. Then after the Scopes trial it became intensely skeptical of "worldly" affairs such as politics. I remember some older fundamentalist relatives being in this tradition wherein all political action was looked on as corrupt and any political engagement beyond simply voting as a civic duty was viewed as futile. There was a saying among old line fundamentalists that trying to engage in politics was like polishing the brass on a sinking ship.

Somewhere along the line William F. Buckley and his crowd came along wherein they attempted to synthesize traditionalist conservatism and economic libertarianism. This was merely a marriage of convenience in which it was seen that the two united could oppose communism abroad and fellow travelers on the left at home. However over time this marriage of convenience was forgotten and people began acting as if the two went hand in hand all along. However the key difference was these early fusionist libertarian-conservatives were often high church Christians or even Jews (like Frank Meyer, although Meyer later became Catholic).

Then in the 1970s populist preachers like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell came onto the scene disturbed by changes they saw in the culture. They wedded themselves to this fusionist conservatism and soon became the dominant voice therein and so it was that the new politically active low church fundamentalism, economic libertarianism and hawkish foreign policy (again this aspect of conservatism entered due to fears of communism but later extended to future threats) became linked. The Ronald Reagan campaign crystalized this as Reagan relied heavily on taking evangelical support from Carter. The irony is that Carter may have been the most deeply religious president ever well versed in Christian theology whereas Reagan himself was certainly a Christian (of the Presbyterian persuasion, ironically mainline Protestant) it animated him much less than Carter.
Last edited by nucklepunche on 17 May 2014 06:06, edited 1 time in total.
By annatar1914
#14407708
Rei Murasame wrote:This. Well said. Without understanding that, it would be impossible to understand the weirdness which is America. Conservatives in the US are trying to conserve a strange combination of radical liberalism and low-church dissenting protestantism.

See also: [Link]


A good read for you Rei, in my opinion, would be this book;

'Democracy in America' by Alexis de Tocqueville, a timeless look at America from a visiting Frenchman studying our Political system in the 1830's (and an anti-russian frenchman to boot).

A lot of it has to do with the unintended consequences upon individuals in America who are given liberty, but also expected to conform to the leveling effect of egalitarian social mores, and the contrasts with older countries with more Hierarchical and Traditionalist societies. One effect is that spiritual belief is actually stronger in America because of the separation of Church and State here.
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