[Demosthenes]

I've been meaning to post something about this since the news broke that Pat Tillman was killed in action in Afghanistan earlier this week, but school had kept me busy lately. Well here it is.

I followed closely everything relating to Pat Tillman's decesion to forego his Pro football career to serve in the United Sates Army. I had anxiously awaited his triumphant return to the sport upon completion of his term of service. So I admit to being stunned to hear the grave news of his untimely demise.

I know all the pundits have been yapping since this news broke last week, I know they have babbled everything they have to babble about it, but I can't help but feel pretty damn sorry for him and his family.

It's not so much that he gave up his million dollar a year salary for $18 grand and a life in the Army Rangers, Nor do I find him any more or less admirable than any other service person, I guess what gets me is that he was just supposed to come home. Or at least I thought he was. A guy like him doesn't get killed in war. It's just not the way it was suppposed to be.

It's not like I'm some blearly eyed kid with no concept of what war really means, and what really happens in a theater of battle. Men die, plain and simple. It's ugly, its brutal, and in an ideal world it shouldn't happen to anyone anywhere. As many of you note though, this is not an ideal world. Beligerant nations/organizations will always be there to force our hand.

War always has been and always will be a necessity in human affairs. Pat Tillman realized that. So do most of our troops. I believe he grasped and ultimately lived by the "why not me?" instead of the "why me?" concept. It makes me simultaeneoulsy proud and saddened to realize the finality of his sacrifice as well as that of the other servicemen and women who have paid the price in blood, on our behalf, so that we may confortably continue to do the things we enjoy doing.

I'm not sure how else to put what I'm thinking.

Here's to you Pat!


(Note- No abuse, flames, or nonsense will be tolerated. If you don't like or disagree with the content of this post you may start your own topic elsewhere. Otherwise, all violating replies will be deleted without mercy. If you don't like it go cry to Fox about it!)

[The One.]

Rest in peace

[enLight]

He died an honorable death, just as every other soldier has.

[| I, CWAS |]

edited per deletion of sourse

He was in afghanistan not iraq, that war was legitimate. Also he resembles John Kerry to a tee, with his sacrifice for his country, a true patriot. he reminds me of europeans, especially prince william, and his desire to serve in the armed forces. Also his little brother told the religious right to fuck off, in fact he said it literally live on tv at the funeral. I don't know if tillman was a right wing wacko or not, come to think of it i don't care, he actually sacrificed a lot for his country, in a war (afghanistan) that was quite just. Bush and his administration with the exception of powell, know nothing of sacrifice, or combat, in fact the republican i respect the most is John McCain, although he is center right, he is a true hero, exploited by an unjust war, and chickenhawk party.

[Kamil]

I haven't learned to play nice with others! I prefer to shoot my mouth off about things I really don't know anything about rather than leave well enough alone.

I don't like to spread my anti-intelligent propaganda in other more suitable areas, I like to stir the shit up despite an obvious warning in the opening post! I'm the type of guy most people tape "Kick Me" signs onto.

I prefer to test the moderater to see how much he'll really let me get away with, like any ass would, rather than just leave well enough alone!

I can even string together several BIG words and sorta make them seem like they belong together!

I am so damn cool!

[edited by- You Know Who ]

[National Syndicalist]

The sad thing was that Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire.

[Seán Himmelb(L)au]

I haven't learned to play nice with others! I prefer to shoot my mouth off about things I really don't know anything about rather than leave well enough alone.

I don't like to spread my anti-intelligent propaganda in other more suitable areas, I like to stir the shit up despite an obvious warning in the opening post! I'm the type of guy most people tape "Kick Me" signs onto.

I prefer to test the moderater to see how much he'll really let me get away with, like any ass would, rather than just leave well enough alone!

I can even string together several BIG words and sorta make them seem like they belong together!

I am so damn cool!

[edited by- You Know Who ]

The sad thing is that this guy thinks he will last more than five minutes in the real world.

That is a shame about Pat Tillman, he sounds like he was an asset to America. Unfortunately, that is life and although I salute his bravery (I don't know how willing I'd be to do the same) at the end of the day lots of other American people died in conflicts who wouldn't really get their own post dedicated to them, would they? I think the worst part is that he died in friendly fire and that America lost a talented young football player than the fact he was famous.

May he rest in peace.

[user X]

I can't help but feel pretty damn sorry for him and his family.

I don't. Heros are to be worshipped and revered, not to become objects of sympathy. Sympathy is much better afforded to those that can't grasp the concepts of heroism.

I guess what gets me is that he was just supposed to come home. [getting killed in war is] just not the way it was suppposed to be.

Actually, death is integral in this context. Whether or not he is literally immortalized because of his actions (who the hell really knows?), the spirit of his actions lives on in our hearts and minds.

It's not like I'm some blearly eyed kid with no concept of what war really means

Well, that's debatable, given your statements that war is both a "necessity in human affairs", and yet "in an ideal world it shouldn't happen to anyone anywhere." How can an ideal world not serve necessity?

[Demosthenes]

I don't. Heros are to be worshipped and revered, not to become objects of sympathy. Sympathy is much better afforded to those that can't grasp the concepts of heroism.

Well, whatever.

It's your choice how you want to look at it. I personally don't worship anyone. However I suspect you've never lost someone close to you or you might appreciate the context with which I siad what I said.

Well, that's debatable, given your statements that war is both a "necessity in human affairs", and yet "in an ideal world it shouldn't happen to anyone anywhere." How can an ideal world not serve necessity?

Well, again...whatever you wanna think. I'm not sure exactly why you've choosen to come across as hostile in this particular thread given that you seem to recognize the orignal idea behind the post and agree... but I really couldn't give a shit less.

As for your attempted psychobabble about ideal worlds being a necessity or whatever the hell you're trying to say, I can only add that what I said wasn't in greek. In an ideal world there would be no war, nor a neccesity for anyone to fight in one. Perhaps you meant that without war there would be no Pat Tillmans and I suppose that is a fair enough point but not one that is so profund that you need to make an asshole out of yourself saying it.

[| I, CWAS |]

It's your choice how you want to look at it. I personally don't worship anyone. However I suspect you've never lost someone close to you or you might appreciate the context with which I siad what I said

Demo you have to admit he resembles JOhn kerry more than any conservative. Afghanistan was a legit war, and tillman sacrificed more than his life for his country, and he wasn't some right wing "lets kill sum Arabs" ass, so i can respect that. Did you see the way conservatives took steps to exploit his death but his brother stood up live on tv, and told them pat wasn't religious, "and that hes dead, hes fucking dead"
I come from a family full of millitary and civil servicem, so i can respect true honor, which pat had. In fact as always i checked for drawbacks and he had none. Its a shame afghanistan is the forgotten war.

By the way Demo, my brother Rick is a recruiter, he told me he went to a young republicans gathering to see if they supported our troops, and they said yes, he offered to sign them up to serve, and they just walked away or rejected it. Its a shame those rich punks (like bush was) get away with playing both sides, the I'm a patriot and support the war, and if you don't you're un-american, but they don't want to sacrifice. In fact has Bush asked america to do anything? You know he's a scumbag for having pictures of coffins from 9/11 but he won't Honor the dead troops by showing thier coffins. These punks have so idea what war is really like. Pat Tillman is a perfect example of sacrifice in more ways than one. I don't expect many to follow.

[Demosthenes]

I believe to compare him to anyone in politics is to do him a disservice, as it is to compare any soldier who has given the ultimate sacrifice for our country.

Therefore, I'll withhold comment on the political angle, which I'm hoping this thread won't turn into.

It's intended as a simple tribute. I'd really like to keep it that way.

[| I, CWAS |]

I believe to compare him to anyone in politics is to do him a disservice, as it is to compare any soldier who has given the ultimate sacrifice for our country.

Therefore, I'll withhold comment on the political angle, which I'm hoping this thread won't turn into.

It's intended as a simple tribute. I'd really like to keep it that way.

I'm not trying to make it political, i mean it from a patriotic standpoint. Since politics is the essence of humanity its hard to avoid. But in order for his death to not be in vain, changes and observations must be made. He stood for, what many hypocrites claim to stand for but don't. So they should be called on thier deeds or lack thereof

[Demosthenes]

His death is hardly in vain if no changes whasoever are to made. And again I submit that trying to pin more meaning on this than leaving it as simply "what it is" is doing his memory a disservice.

He was a man who gave his life for our country. I knew of him, not personally but at least through his professional exploits.

That's it. I leave all the hype from either party in this country where it belongs... Bouncing around the airwaves, and not in front of my eyes or on my television screen.

Simple as that. and I WANT to keep it that way, please do your part.

[| I, CWAS |]

His death is hardly in vain if no changes whasoever are to made. And again I submit that trying to pin more meaning on this than leaving it as simply "what it is" is doing his memory a disservice.

He was a man who gave his life for our country. I knew of him, not personally but at least through his professional exploits.

That's it. I leave all the hype from either party in this country where it belongs... Bouncing around the airwaves, and not in front of my eyes or on my television screen.

Simple as that. and I WANT to keep it that way, please do your part.

I agree i'll leave it at a tribute to the man and the soldier.

[user X]

I personally don't worship anyone. However I suspect you've never lost someone close to you or you might appreciate the context with which I said what I said.

Not being close to Pat Tillman myself, I'll opt for "reverence" in his case. My point remains: that sympathy is for the unfortunate and that there is nothing unfortunate about a hero when he dies a hero's death.

As stated in the post above this one: Patriotism isn't the highest attribute of a hero.

I'm not sure exactly why you've choosen to come across as hostile in this particular thread given that you....agree

I do agree, and merely wanted to expand the discussion of heroism. I'm hostile and aggressive by nature--it's a personality flaw--so don't take it personal, lol. I actually expected to get deleted, and am quite pleased you chose to engage instead. And I didn't intend to disrespect your Pat Tillman cyber-alter, but since you don't "worship", I suppose that wasn't a possibility to begin with.

Perhaps you meant that without war there would be no Pat Tillmans and I suppose that is a fair enough point but not one that is so profund that you need to make an asshole out of yourself saying it.

Perhaps, but like I said...

[Monkey Angst]

I don't. Heros are to be worshipped and revered, not to become objects of sympathy.

I disagree. Heroes are an example to be aspired to, to be sure, but "worshipping and revering" anyone is a very dangerous thing to do. It makes us uncritical, and as Americans we are duty-bound to always be critical. It is a short step from declaring someone a hero to brooking no criticism of them, and from there to tolerating no criticism of causes linked to them. For instance, see Demo's comment that...

He died an honorable death, just as every other soldier has.

Obviously, not every soldier dies an honorable death. This is just nonsense. Even when the individual is acting out of honorable motives (and to think every soldier, sailor, and Marine is acting out of such motives is incredibly naive), the objectives set forth by his superiors may not be honorable. If we deify these men, we lose sight of this distinction. Bake them some cookies, but don't worship them.

[user X]

You've misunderstood, Monkey. I didn't say that all soldiers are heros. You also presumed that I would link a soldier's duty to a moral evaluation of his mission, and I wouldn't do that either.

Heros are where you find them, and they're extremely rare these days. In Pat Tillman's case, his sacrifice is what makes him a hero. Not so much a sacrifice in a patriotic, or a religious context, but a sacrifice of his individuality, of his self. It's something greater than nationalism, and it's greater than the good-vs-evil dynamic of religion. I suspect that this level of devotion to selflessness is absent in the majority of modern western soldiers.