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Traditional 'common sense' values and duty to the state.
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By Demosthenes
#19419
Ok, this is really long and certainly up for interpratation but I found this and decided at its core are some good basic principals that sum up conservative thought, Although I don't really like saying what conservatism is by defining what it is not, at any rate its a start. I'm sure even those of us who agree with Conservatism will find some holes in this essay, I thought it was as good a place to start as any other.

    The Tyranny of Liberalism
    James Kalb

    Summer, 2000
    The Tyranny of Liberalism

    The disappearance of the radical left is a sign that in principle it has reached its attainable goals. While no one admits it, what we see around us is the victory of the Revolution.
    Politics today is radically secularist and antiparticularist. It aims to dissolve what is left of traditional society and construct a universal form of human association that will constitute a technically rational system for the equal satisfaction of desire. Religion is to be banished from public life, ethnic and gender distinctions abolished, and a worldwide order established, based on world markets and trans-national bureaucracies, that is to override local differences in the name of human rights, international economic development, and collective security.

    Contemporary liberalism expresses and supports that new order. Not all members of our ruling elites adhere to liberalism, and it draws support from outsiders as well. However, our elites determine its content, and it promotes their interests. It sets the terms of discussion, defines what is considered progress, and establishes the general principles of cooperation upon which our elites base their claim to rule.

    Supporters of the new order see it as historically and morally necessary, and thus as compulsory regardless of established views and habits. Since modern governments claim to base themselves on consent, the public must be brought to accept it. Managing opinion and keeping perspectives that oppose fundamental public policies out of mainstream discussion have therefore become basic to statecraft.

    Genuine opposition comes not from the left but from reactionary and restorationist groups that exclude themselves from respectable politics by rejecting liberalism and the left. Today's dissidents are particularist -- traditionalist, fundamentalist, populist, or nationalist. Beyond that, they are antisecularist and antihedonist. They reject a system of politics that bases social order on human desire, because they reject the view that lies behind it, that men make morality for their own purposes.

    Today all things are justified on the grounds that they help men get what they want. Those who recognize an authority superior to human purposes are seen as dangerous bigots who want to oppress others in the name of some sect or arbitrary principle. As a consequence, fundamental political discussion no longer exists. Politics today is divided between an outlook that presents itself as rational and this-worldly, and absolutely dominates public discussion, and a variety of dissident views that speak for goods higher than human desire but are unable to make effective their substantial underlying support. The conflict is never discussed seriously since it is considered resolved; the ruling liberal view is accepted as indisputable, while dissent is considered confused or worse.

    The dominant outlook believes itself peculiarly tolerant and all-inclusive. It is not. The error results from a misconception of politics and morality that is essential to liberalism. Liberalism claims to leave religious and moral issues, at least those it identifies as personal, to individual judgment. The theoretical ground for doing so is neutrality as to ultimate commitments. As the Supreme Court has put the matter, "[a]t the heart of liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life." Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 1992, 505 U.S. 833, 851.




    Liberals assert that widespread religious and moral disagreement today makes such neutrality the only possible approach to public life. While they sometimes speak of common values, when pressed liberals return to the necessity of letting people choose for themselves. All that is required, liberals say, are a few formal principles, such as equality and self-ownership, required for differing purposes to co-exist.
    Liberalism draws enormous strength from its ability to get such claims accepted. They are nonetheless false. Few societies have been liberal, while moral disagreement is common to all societies of any size and complexity. Moreover, contemporary liberalism no more accepts disagreement than other views do. To the contrary, it is based on a particular understanding of morality with pervasive implications for the whole of life that it enforces against other more reasonable understandings.

    What makes liberal claims seem plausible is not any inability of current moral views to achieve dominance but changes in the way in which dominance is established and maintained. Liberalism is at home in today's world. Its strength is its ability to use new methods of dominion that rely less on physical repression than on homogenization and centralization of social life, destruction of independent institutions and moral habits, and maintenance of the illusion of open inquiry and popular rule.

    The fact is that modern conditions make neutrality among moral views less important. When our rulers today do battle with the religious and moral habits of the people, our rulers win. "Political correctness" shows that it is now possible to establish as authoritative moral views that are profoundly at odds with long-established understandings, as long as those who dominate public discussion are committed to them.

    The present situation results in part from the enormous power that mass communications media put in the hands of a small elite that can flood the world with the opinions of chosen experts and swamp critical thought with trivia and soundbites. That power makes molders of opinion -- media people, entertainers, experts, educators -- integral to government; our rulers control opinion because those who control opinion are among them.

    The influence of a small class over opinion is aided by growing centralization of intellectual life. The republic of letters has become less republican; thought and what counts as knowledge are no longer left to chance or individual initiative. Intellectual life is now carried on by a largely state-supported bureaucracy comprising academics, foundations, think tanks, arts officials and so on. News reporting and analysis are in the hands of professionals employed by a few large organizations. The young are reared largely by mass-market entertainers and an increasingly unified state education system. The effect has been to do away with intellectual independence and make dissident views seem provincial, ignorant or insane. The few places dissent exists freely, such as talk radio and the Internet, are socially marginal, lack discipline and coherence, and are seen as centers of "hate" that threatens everything decent.

    Beyond the support it receives from those who control publicity, the strength of liberalism in an age of publicity is its "stealth" quality. What the neutrality of liberalism amounts to is its ability to keep the substantive moral views it enforces invisible, thus removing moral disputes from politics and so preventing challenges to its own positions from even being raised. That quality gives liberalism an advantage in public discussion that has so far been insuperable.

    Moral decisions are unavoidable in politics, and a government that claims to leave them up to the individual is engaged in deception. Man is a social animal who needs government because voluntary cooperation is not enough for common goods. Views vary on the goods government should support; since differences mean conflict the law must decide among them. Between the choices abortionists provide and the lives Operation Rescue defends neutrality is impossible.

    To enforce a definite view of the matter, as government must if it is to act coherently, is to enforce a particular understanding of morality. Enforcing morality is difficult, and every government looks for alternatives to force in dealing with moral disagreement. Different governments emphasize different means, traditionalist states stressing common adherence to what has long been settled, theocracies and ideological regimes persuasion by authority, republics mutual persuasion among the citizens. All these are ways of reducing the number and intensity of disagreements by dealing with their substance, a process that is difficult but necessary if government is to promote goods held in common. Liberal governments assert they can do without such a process because they keep moral disputes out of politics while leaving their substance untouched. They claim allegiance not because they promote common goods but because they let everyone pursue his own preferences without interference.

    Looking for ways to let each man go his own way might amount only to recognition of the difficulty of moral agreement and the importance of arrangements that ease cooperation when agreement is minimal. When so understood liberal views are an aspect of practical wisdom consistent with almost any reasonable understanding of the goals of politics. A sacred monarchy with an established church would, on this view, be liberal if when possible it preferred accommodation to force.

    Contemporary liberalism is not so limited a view. It is a comprehensive governing philosophy that determines the whole of public morality. While it sounds permissive, comprehensive solutions are usually intolerant in practice and liberalism is no exception. Contemporary liberalism sets forth categorical demands it calls "rights," and rejects balancing principles such as respect for natural tendencies and settled understandings. Without balancing principles abstract demands expand without limit. As a result, liberal standards have become all-embracing to the point of tyranny. Liberal neutrality, which began as a patchwork of limitations on government power, has become applicable to social practices generally and thereby oppressive. If to be liberal is to be willing to accommodate other views, contemporary liberalism is no longer liberal.




    Accommodating other views involves relating them to larger shared truths. Liberalism cannot do so because it establishes a closed moral system. The social contract with which liberal thought begins makes morality a self-contained system defined by logic and human will. Man is the master, the good what men choose, and social institutions arrangements set up for men's purposes. There is no larger truth in which all participate, only an open-ended and never-ending process of social transformation on behalf of changing desires.
    That process overrides all other things and makes liberalism as peremptory and unreasonable as desire itself. Liberalism today denounces deviations from its principles as oppressive, no matter how long-established and widely-accepted, and insists that they be eradicated. The result is enormous expansion of government, weakening of principles like local community that are needed to keep government accountable, and huge destruction from uprooting fundamental social practices, for example those relating to the relations between the sexes.

    In spite of claims of neutrality, liberalism establishes an enforceable official morality that supports a definite way of life. It makes demands for moral reconstruction that are necessarily intolerant. Civil rights law, with its determination to eradicate "stereotypes" -- habitual ways of thinking -- is intrusively moralistic and ends in incessant re-education campaigns. Antiharassment rules aim to control the thoughts expressed in every public place. Public education is nonstop moral propaganda. Even health and safety have become crusades involving extensive regulation of daily life. Where there were once religious tests, Sunday closing laws, and laws against blasphemy, there are now diversity programs, the Martin Luther King holiday, and speech codes. The advance in tolerance is hard to discern.

    The development of liberalism has reversed its original principles. Rather than let society control the state, a more ambitious liberalism now makes the state control society. Freedom of speech and opinion have therefore become suspect. Religious people are felt to be a threat, because ways of life have public implications and public action that relies on nonliberal moral understandings violates neutrality. Simple assertion of traditional sexual morality is treated as oppressive because it creates informal obstacles, if only the force of opinion, to the satisfaction of personal tastes. To refuse to rent an apartment to an unmarried couple is illegal even though it is only refusal to facilitate an arrangement one believes wrong. Even Christmas greetings are an affront.

    The actual function of the liberal insistence on neutrality is to stifle debate. To the extent they have concrete implications, moral objections to liberalism are rejected out of hand as intolerant and divisive, so resistance becomes impossible. Distortion of language complements suppression of speech. "Hatred" and "intolerance" now include all serious opposition to liberalism. "Inclusiveness" insists that others be tolerant to the point of abandoning their principles and even identity while rejecting accommodation in its own case. "Diversity and tolerance" mean thought control; "human rights" aggressive war; "openness" shutting the door to recognition of differences; "getting government out of our bedrooms" training children to use condoms.

    Stifling debate stifles moderating principles. The ultimate consequences are likely to be overreaching and the collapse of liberalism, but in the meantime its triumph is unlimited. Mere conservatism -- caution and good sense regarding changes -- is no longer a restraint.

    Simple mainstream conservatism is the view of reasonable men attached to what is established but willing to accommodate new developments. It has much in common with liberalism, and is well-suited to moderate it if anything is. Both are this-worldly views that distrust absolutes and value reason and experience. The basic difference is that simple conservatism accepts settled habits and expectations as a guide to what is reasonable, while liberalism tends toward something more abstract. That difference leads to others. Conservatism accepts social habits that carry forward nonliberal understandings; if dogmatic religion and authoritative aspects of family life are socially accepted it tends to support them. However, simply as conservatism it is indifferent to truth, and in the end treats religion and moral tradition as negotiable interests.




    Those put off by the hedonism implicit in liberal neutrality but unable fundamentally to break with it become conservatives, because conservatism seems to leave room for transcendent attachments. The refuge has proved temporary. Simple mainstream conservatism treats social practices and understandings as final authority, and cannot take transcendent claims seriously. It therefore reduces religion to a combination of traditional observances and optional private belief. In the end, religious belief that must stay private evaporates, because it can apply to nothing, and traditional observances become socially unacceptable because they have a public element that comes to seem a violation of the equal standing of irreligion. What remains is an aggressively secular public order in the construction of which conservatism has cooperated.
    In time liberalism remakes conservatism in its own image by forcing it to give up everything distinctive for the sake of consensus. Simple conservatism must rely on things that are not seriously in dispute, and it cannot defend those things against attack because the fact of their being attacked makes them useless to it. Liberals will not stop attacking whatever is nonliberal. The triumph of increasingly radical forms of liberalism was therefore inevitable, a triumph that reached its climax in the '60s.

    The triumph was not over conservative doctrine, which had always been weak in public life, but over conservative habits that prevented liberalism from realizing its inner logic. Key events included the school prayer decisions, the civil rights laws and the sexual revolution. The first made the social order utterly this-worldly, the second abolished historical in favor of constructed community, and the third made family life a purely voluntary and private affair. John Rawls' A Theory of Justice (1971) marked the new status of liberalism as a comprehensive rational system, and the end of any need to take non-liberal attitudes and practices seriously except as injustices to be eradicated. Since then to say something is a "deeply rooted social stereotype" has been to discredit it. So decisive has the triumph of radical liberalism been that no attempt to reverse the prayer decisions, civil rights laws or sexual revolution has had the slightest chance of success. To take such attempts seriously has been to put oneself outside serious public discourse.

    The triumph of radical liberalism has made moderate conservatism, which assumes a social order defined in fundamental ways by non-liberal attitudes and practices, an empty position. A desire to seem thoughtful and aspirations toward something less thin than liberal ideology may lead public men to use the language of conservatism, but the substance is gone. Mainstream conservatism grumbles, drags its feet, and tries to moderate the disruption caused by implementing liberal demands, but it cannot deny the justice of those demands or deprive them of ultimate victory. It cannot even talk about them in language very different from that of triumphant liberalism.

    Not only moderate conservatism but all serious public opposition to liberalism has vanished. Opposing stances can find no footing. What opposition from the left remains tends toward irrationalism. Communitarianism proposes a centrally-managed nondiscriminatory particularism that is hard even to imagine. Popular conservatism and the religious right cannot think or act coherently, in part because they cannot sustain a style of argument different from that of their opponents. Neoconservatives note that liberalism rejects the loyalties to God, country and family needed to sustain a free society, but tend to view such things as a sort of noble lie to be kept firmly subordinate to the liberal order; the effect of their activities is to integrate dissidents into that order, thus taming antiliberal impulses.

    Nor can libertarians effectively resist liberalism. Libertarianism is less intrusive than managerial liberalism but cannot offer a real alternative. Like liberals, libertarians deny transcendent authority and demand social reconstruction on rational hedonistic lines. The moral subjectivism of their movement makes its opposition to government intervention a matter of preference rather than principle. Its treatment of property as morally fundamental is inconsistent with subjectivist treatment of social institutions as constructions for human ends, and when put forward as an objective moral principle seems arbitrary. Libertarianism is therefore likely to remain the special cause of a small but vocal minority, although retaining influence as part of the shifting and unprincipled compromises that constitute contemporary liberalism.

    The dominance of liberalism, the apparent impossibility of reforming it, and the absence of credible opposition has led some to say openly -- and many to assume implicitly -- that we have reached the end of history, that since liberalism is utterly dominant and cannot essentially change it has won for ever. That conclusion mistakes the imaginative limits of liberals for the limits of reality. Until quite recently the advance of liberalism did seem inevitable. It alone seemed able to maintain the voluntary cooperation needed for social peace and efficiency. Once an issue had been raised any non-liberal resolution seemed irrational. All liberals had to do was dramatize what they considered oppression and victory was assured. In the absence of public transcendental principle "let them do what they want" -- the basic liberal principle -- seemed the only way to avoid implicit or open civil war.

    That has changed with the triumph of liberalism as a ruling rather than critical philosophy. Victory is its downfall, because it must now give answers rather than criticize those others give, and that it cannot do. "Let them do what they want" cannot be a governing philosophy, so in order to govern liberalism is forced to tyrannize and lie. Lack of moderating principles means that it cannot help but overreach, eventually catastrophically.




    Analysis suggests that the vices of liberalism are intrinsic and irremediable. Conceptual arguments are often shrugged off in politics on the grounds that life is complex and in practice particular circumstances matter more than abstract implications. The objection is weak in the case of contemporary liberalism. Modern conditions tend to simplify human society and turn it more and more into a formless aggregate, without race, sex, class or nation. Liberalism encourages that process, and tells bureaucrats and judges to govern the resulting fine-grained chaos by universal principles. Formal rules and institutions thus become the leading principles of order in an otherwise incoherent situation; in such a setting conceptual problems become practical very quickly.
    Such has been the case with liberalism. One defect in principle that has caused far-reaching practical problems is the inability of liberalism to deal with conflict in a principled way. Politics cannot be based simply on human goals, because human goals do not tell us what to do when they clash. A resolution based on what particular men want is merely the triumph of one will over another. Even a resolution based on balancing desires or following those that are strongest only subordinates some desires to others unless the method of resolution expresses a moral truth that transcends desire itself.

    Liberalism proposes formal principles such as "to each his own" or maximizing total satisfaction. It is hard to see how such principles, even if universally acceptable, could give answers that are definite enough to live by. How, for example, can all possible satisfactions -- Plato, Chinese checkers, pornography -- be added and compared when they differ so enormously? And how can it be determined what is "one's own"? Whether it is an imperial throne or property in one's body, a thing is one's own only if others recognize it as such, a necessity that shows that property is not a simple pre-social conception.

    Arbitrariness in resolving disputes is thus intrinsic to liberalism. Nor is arbitrariness the only problem. The good is the substantive principle of morality, and a fatal flaw in liberalism is its defective theory of the good. The need for a particular definition of the good can not be sidestepped by ignoring goods in favor of wants. "Goods" are simply possible objects of rational action, and "the good" is whatever general quality it is that makes something worth pursuing. To treat desire as the thing that determines rational action is to identify the good with what is desired. The liberal theory of the good is thus hedonism.

    Hedonism is a bad theory, even if it can be made to yield determinate results, because we are not at bottom hedonists. By giving us "whatever we want" liberalism fails precisely to give us what we want. Our good, and for that matter the things we desire most deeply, depends on what we are, and we are rational and social. Man does not desire to get what he wants simply as such; he wants what he wants, but also wants to recognize it as good, as desirable because it contributes to a scheme of life the validity of which does not depend on his desires alone.

    As rational beings, we are not satisfied unless our lives are based on an understanding of what goals are right that rests on something that gives it enduring validity. Nor, as social beings, can we be satisfied unless that understanding is shared. The problem is not merely theoretical. If goods other than pursuit of individual pleasure are understood as purely individual goals, with no right to social support, they wither. Marriage is not simply what two people choose to do privately. It involves objective duties and thus social definitions; to define it as the chance parallelism of two wills, each with its own purposes, is to destroy it. Even disinterested love of truth and beauty needs common support to become more than the fragmentary possession of isolated visionaries. Liberalism disrupts that support by denying public recognition to any good but satisfaction of desire. A conceptual problem in liberalism, its inability to prefer one goal to another, thus leads naturally to family breakdown and sordidness in public life.

    The problems go farther. Man is social, and community requires the common goods liberalism denies. If I say that I am American the claim is insignificant unless Americans are united by something that they recognize collectively as good. In liberal society, however, the only thing that can be recognized in common as a substantive good is the goal implicit in all individual desire, the ability to get what one wants. That ability is most readily recognized in the form of money, power and success, and liberalism therefore turns society into an assortment of individuals related by those things. Under such conditions men lose substantive connection to others and with it their sense of who they are; personal identity becomes a matter of bank balances and shifting private fantasies, and the individual, for whose sake liberalism was invented, evaporates.




    Identifying the good with the desired destroys the things that make freedom worth having. Liberalism frees children from parents, women from men, the poor from charity, inferiors from superiors, all so each can do what he wants. By making our connections to others insubstantial, however, it deprives actions of effect and we end with the trivial freedom of irresponsibility and impotence. Freedom becomes indistinguishable from willfulness. We value liberty because it enables us to choose and realize goods, but if no goods are objective it loses objective value and becomes just another personal taste. How can choice be so important, if what is chosen matters not at all? Or if it is choice itself that matters, why isn't willfulness the greatest virtue? As anyone who deals with aimless teenagers will attest, such issues have practical consequences.
    A further radical defect in liberalism is that while claiming rationality it makes rationality impossible. Rationality presupposes standards that transcend actual desires. If man has no standard higher than himself, he has nothing by which to judge his own conduct, and ethical thought disappears. Liberalism claims to let us create our own standards but might as well claim to let us flap our arms and fly. Our good is not something we make up. We can clarify our good but not choose it, act significantly within a moral world but not call it into existence. When liberalism tells us to create our own moral world it turns its back on the public moral world needed for choice to have meaning.

    The cult of creativity, in moral life as elsewhere, comes from consciousness of a void that must be filled somehow, fraudulently if necessary. It is that void that is at the center of liberalism. A parallel case is provided by art, in which a cult of creativity resulting from loss of confidence in goods like beauty that transcend the artist has ended in art that is empty of content, obsessed with technique, and dominated by the same forces, foreign to it, that dominate liberal society -- money, success, and the politics of mindless aggression and rebellion.

    The irrationality intrinsic to liberalism causes it continually to raise questions it cannot deal with and so must suppress. Examples are everywhere: if every society must be intolerant in defending its leading principles, how reasonable can it be to make intolerance the sole object of opprobrium? If government is to give us what we want, do we really want hedonism? If I have a right to pursue my desires, and I desire to live in a society guided by traditional understandings, do I have the right to pursue that goal politically? If not, why is an environment free from racism and sexism a worthier goal than one free from atheism and from immorality as traditionally understood? Such questions cannot be avoided as a practical matter, and liberalism requires them to be resolved by neutral principles that take no position on the content of the good life.

    The requirement cannot be met, although there have been a variety of proposals for meeting it. Some have claimed that liberalism grants freedom unless the action interferes with others in a concrete and particularized way. Hence, for example, the right of sexual expression overrides the right to an environment in which traditional standards prevail.

    The response is inadequate, if only because liberalism does not accept it in its own case. For example, liberalism accepts land use controls and laws against littering that protect only general aesthetic interests. Prohibitions against highway billboards go so far as to ban speech simply because it offends. One man's smuggling, tax evasion or use of leaded gasoline may benefit him a great deal without having a demonstrable effect on anyone else. And someone who does not want to work with blacks is likely to be affected far more profoundly by a requirement of nondiscrimination than a black man who might otherwise have to find a job elsewhere. Like other people, liberals recognize that law may forbid intangible injuries, and it may justly defend a beneficial system of conduct or suppress a harmful one, even when individual infractions do not cause identifiable concrete damage. These principles rationally allow legal support for traditional morality. Offense to moral sensibilities is an injury that tends to make men morally callous and so weakens a social order based on self-government. Why is it worthy of more protection than other acts that injure both individuals and society?

    Another response is that interference with conduct is particularly objectionable when the conduct is close to the heart of what makes us what we are. To make this response liberals must propose a theory of essential human nature. Such theories are no less contentious than theories of the good. Does acting on sexual impulse make us what we are, or living in accordance with common moral understandings that promote stable personal relationships? One answer would make restrictions on sexual conduct objectionable, the other lack of sexual restraint, and there seems no neutral way to choose between the two.

    Such issues go to the heart of liberal public morality. Liberalism deals with them by suppressing their discussion and imposing its own answers by default. The practical result is like that of establishing any dogmatic principle as absolute: liberals speak of divisiveness and extremism rather than schism and heresy, and forbid questioning the being, attributes and significance of sexism or the Holocaust rather than those of God, but specific differences do not affect the similarity of system.

    Liberalism -- an attempt to create a wholly this-worldly system based only on logic and the human will -- thus ends in obscurantist tyranny and so refutes itself. That result is necessary because logic and human will cannot be combined to yield authority, and to rule liberalism must somehow steal authority. It therefore demands submission to arbitrary principles and conclusions. It insists on controlling everything that affects public life, including the human soul. It responds to criticism by silencing the critic. It destroys concrete freedom by centralizing power, by undermining standards that make free social life possible, and by destroying our connections to others and so making us dependent on universal systems utterly beyond our control. And in the name of giving us what we want it denies us everything worth having.




    When judged by day-to-day experience, such conclusions may seem to go too far. "Tyranny" sounds exaggerated, other phrases like "soft totalitarianism" yet more so. In America, after all, there are no secret police and few government spies. The judiciary is independent and private property safe. Trials are public and procedural safeguards observed. Anyone can run for public office on any platform, and write or say what he wants without fear of prison or confiscation. Tenure protects scholars with unpopular-- even conservative -- views. Informal restraints on thought, expression and action appear matched by similar restraints in other societies. And above all, life is comfortable. The differences between the American regime today and the regimes usually called tyrannical or totalitarian are thus fundamental.
    Nonetheless, the differences should not mask similarities that are also fundamental and justify some similarity of descriptive language. Tyranny is irresponsible government not limited by law or binding custom; totalitarianism is tyranny based on an all-encompassing theory that is the private property of a ruling elite. On those definitions medieval governments, for example, were neither tyrannies nor totalitarian; they were limited by law and custom, and the Christian outlook that justified them was in the hands not of the king but of the church, a body distinct in fundamental ways from secular rulers, often at odds with them, and bound by authoritative texts and traditions and ultimately the will of God.

    In contrast, modern America inclines toward totalitarian tyranny, at least if one recognizes the nature of liberalism as a self-contained and all-embracing scheme for life in society, the sole right of the ruling elite to interpret it, and the barriers to political action at odds with it. On fundamental issues, America is governed by a liberal elite whose power is not limited by law because the courts are part of the elite and what the courts say is the law. Affirmative action, mass immigration and the exclusion of religion from public life illustrate the power of that elite to force fundamental changes over strong and rooted opposition from virtually the entire people.

    Such power is tyrannical. Because man is a social animal, tyranny can inhere in the relationship between an irresponsible ruling class and social institutions as well as that between a government and the individual. A man who arbitrarily imprisons me or confiscates my property is a tyrant. Ruling elites that destroy the social institutions and relationships that make me what I am, that attack the family and abolish gender distinctions, ethnic ties, and traditional moral standards, that drive religion out of public life and tell private associations what members to choose and why, are also tyrannical.

    Imprisonment and exile are punishments because they deprive a man of his social setting. Intentional destruction of that setting is plainly worse. Genocide is said to include intentional destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups. Liberalism does that to all national groups by abolishing the constituents of nationality. How can that be acceptable? When everyone must praise such actions as incontestable demands of justice, when it is all but impossible to make protests heard and critics are treated as enemies of humanity, when the existence of any higher standard is denied, the tyranny, however maintained, takes on a totalitarian quality.

    Such complaints may still be thought overblown. The limitations on opinion, expression, association and popular self-rule can no doubt be explained away. Attacks on fundamental institutions may seem to have certain benefits, since all institutions have their injustices and corruptions. Life is still pleasant for most people, as long as they relax and concentrate on individual pursuits -- "sit back and take a breath," as Mrs. Clinton has suggested. Nonetheless, there are plain grounds for concern about the future. Irresponsible power corrupts. Free government requires a settled widespread distribution of power, as well as cohesion among the people at large so they can hold their rulers to account. Today's liberalism destroys both.

    At present liberalism does not physically destroy anyone, except Serbs, the unborn, and -- increasingly -- the old and useless. Possibly the tally should also include murders and suicides resulting from deteriorating social order, and some of the Russians who have drunk themselves to death since the fall of Communism, but the point need not be insisted on. Whatever its record to date, liberalism is one of several modern political movements that deny human nature. It makes human nature a matter of human choice and technology, as communism made it a matter of economic evolution and fascism of human will and national struggle.

    In each case the motive has been to eliminate human nature as an obstacle to re-creation of the world. The difficulty has been that destruction in concept of fixed and rooted human nature has led repeatedly to the concrete destruction of very large numbers of actual human beings. The sequence seems natural. If "man" does not exist, why should it matter whether men exist? Liberals do not take the threat of such inferences seriously, but it is not clear why. If "human" is content-free, so it becomes a social classification the point of which is determined politically, and if it is irrational to recognize a radical difference in rights between a man and a dog, both of which seem to be the emerging liberal views, the stage seems rather clearly set for horrors. In the absence of a reliable way to hold government to account, the horrors may not remain forever a matter of debatable interpretation. Soft totalitarianism may turn to hard.

    Whichever may lie in store for us, tyranny -- especially totalitarian tyranny -- cannot last. Liberalism will destroy itself in practice as well as theory. Tyrants must be prudent, but liberalism cannot be prudent forever. It makes human desire the measure and so has no place for unpleasant facts. The consequences are everywhere; liberalism depends on competent elites, for example, but is reluctant to recognize human differences and so institutes affirmative action programs that make it impossible to deal with issues of relative competence. It cannot justify nonconsensual authority -- parental authority or even ordinary moral standards for example -- and so feels bound to undermine it as oppressive whatever the consequences. The resulting disorders permeate social life, and as the generations succeed each other make orderly government progressively harder to maintain.

    Further, a philosophy based on independent individuals pursuing their own interests cannot deal with issues that go beyond one's life as a self-interested individual -- reproduction and child-rearing, loyalty and sacrifice, life and death. Such issues are fundamental to social survival, but liberalism can only treat them as matters of individual preference. The consequences are suicidally low birthrates, children growing up without parental care, and an army that cannot take casualties. If such things endure, and it is hard to see what within liberalism can stop them, they will mean the end of liberal society.




    The choice, therefore, is between a liberalism that must deny its own principles to rule, thus leading to corruption, obscurantist tyranny, and eventual collapse, and a system explicitly based on authoritative transcendent goods. A system of the latter kind might be liberal in many ways, but it would reject freedom as a ultimate standard, and in present-day terms would be radically illiberal. A system of transcendent goods grounding a way of life is in effect a religion; the choice is therefore between the reign of force and fraud (perhaps disguised and perhaps not), and recognition of the religious basis of society and government.
    The fundamental question of politics is which religion shall be established. Authority must be based on a common understanding of principles superior to the human will that are rooted in the nature of things. To the extent it tries to be principled liberalism itself cannot help but answer such questions. In spite of claims of neutrality, American law today embodies a religious understanding. It excludes from public life views that take transcendent religion seriously, in substance treating them as false. It cannot get by without a conception of the world and the source of moral obligation, however, and it finds both in man the measure. It makes human genius the principle of creation and individual will the source of value. Such an outlook is religious, the religion of man as creator and judge of all things. As the response to ultimate concerns that silently motivates our public order it is our established religion.

    It is a religion that fails to deliver, ultimately because it makes no sense. By trying to abolish the mystery at the heart of things it succeeds only in making all things incomprehensible. It makes man the measure, but men are weak, mutable, prone to error, and at odds with each other. Incoherence leads to incoherence: liberal neutrality is not neutral, liberal tolerance is intolerant, and liberal hedonism denies our desires. Since liberalism has grown practically self-destructive not even its established status can be a reason for supporting it. It must be rejected and replaced; it will not last in any event, and it will be better if it is rejected rationally, with consciousness of why it failed.

    The rational way beyond liberalism is to discuss the questions it avoids and cannot answer. Intellectually, liberalism cannot survive their free discussion; a function of "political correctness" and the centralization of intellectual life is to keep them from arising. Both modern communications technology and the liberal demand for free expression make it difficult to suppress such questions altogether, however. When the practical strains on liberal society become severe enough the intellectual flaws of liberalism will begin to tell. As a self-contained system poorly rooted in reality, liberalism could fall apart like Soviet Communism or the one-horse shay of New England Calvinism.

    Once liberalism goes, what then? Even a bad system of thought is unlikely to be abandoned unless there is something to replace it. A religion cannot be chosen like a suit of clothes. The religion of a people is determined by any number of things, sub- or super-rational, and is less a matter of choice than of recognition. It is nonetheless determined somehow or other. Man needs a life in common with his fellows and common life requires a common understanding of the nature of the world and man's place in it. Our public life, to the extent it exists, is now based on a religion that is hard to make sense of, harder to believe, and in the end relies on deceiving self and others. It will be replaced. Until that happens a better public life will be in process of formation. All those who look for a better future can do now is prepare for it by holding themselves apart from the existing system of things, asking the basic questions from which all religion springs, joining with others in answering them, and questioning those who support the present stateof affairs. The rest is in God's hands.
By Catria
#21798
That was a pretty long article to read, but I bravely plowed through it. What are those basic principles of conservativism Demosthenes?

The author seems to draw a portrait of conservatives as a group which defines itself by the status quo...they are a kind of "social lemming", content to go with the social flow as long as there is consensus and established acceptance.

The basic difference is that simple conservatism accepts settled habits and expectations as a guide to what is reasonable, while liberalism tends toward something more abstract. That difference leads to others. Conservatism accepts social habits that carry forward nonliberal understandings; if dogmatic religion and authoritative aspects of family life are socially accepted it tends to support them. However, simply as conservatism it is indifferent to truth, and in the end treats religion and moral tradition as negotiable interests.


simply as conservatism it is indifferent to truth, and in the end treats religion and moral tradition as negotiable interests

This would suggest that conservatism is opportunistic rather than moral, which I think I'd agree with. Liberalism on the other hand seeks something more "abstract", which is also true in the sense it is interested in ideas and truths above and beyond established custom and rules. Liberalism would ask..."why does tradition and social acceptance make something of value?" while conservatism would accept those things as proof of value.



He appears to blame liberalism for everything from suicidal depression to the hurt feelings of racists who are compelled by anti-discrimination laws to work with blacks[my heart bleeds]. Apparently we'd all be much safer and mentally stable in our conservative cocoons. He also takes a swipe at libertarians because they are subjective moralists. Clearly he beieves or at least sees value in, the concept of an objective morality. His religious leanings permeate the essay...pollute it almost.

He refers to the pro-abortionists yet he doesn't call the opposition anti-abortionists...which would be logical. No, instead he calls them "defenders of life" and later refers to abortion as "murder", thereby revealing his own subjective view. And later he refers to "God, country and family" being necessary to sustain a free society. Well why is God necessary to have a free society?

Let's look at one of his major complaints obout liberalism:

The triumph was not over conservative doctrine, which had always been weak in public life, but over conservative habits that prevented liberalism from realizing its inner logic. Key events included the school prayer decisions, the civil rights laws and the sexual revolution. The first made the social order utterly this-worldly, the second abolished historical in favor of constructed community, and the third made family life a purely voluntary and private affair.


The first made the social order utterly this-worldly

Is it wrong to seperate church and state?

the second abolished historical in favor of constructed community

What does he mean here? What is human history if not *constructed community*?

the third made family life a purely voluntary and private affair

As opposed to what....a social compulsion?


So decisive has the triumph of radical liberalism been that no attempt to reverse the prayer decisions, civil rights laws or sexual revolution has had the slightest chance of success.

This is a bad thing??


If I have a right to pursue my desires, and I desire to live in a society guided by traditional understandings, do I have the right to pursue that goal politically? If not, why is an environment free from racism and sexism a worthier goal than one free from atheism and from immorality as traditionally understood?


Liberalism makes no claim that everyone should be allowed to pursue all their desires. Only what is reasonable. It rejects sexism and racism as UNreasonable...that is the main value of a subjective morality over a religious one which does NOT operate on reason and is bound by a stagnant doctrine which cannot shift. I also resent the implication in that statement that athiesm equates with immorality. It does not.

It's quite clear that this man yearns for the the days when a musty religious text gave us all a "common morality"...when men were free to be racist and sexist and church and state were intertwined to give us our "common values"...never mind those values were irational and damaging to many.

But he sees little value in diversity and denigrates tolerence as a liberal sham. To him liberality stifles freedom, which to extent is true, since it's impossible to live in a society and have complete freedom. But, like...social conservatism didn't?? How free were blacks, gays and women before feminism and the civil rights movement? Because conservatism clings to the established norms it was happy to go along with the oppression of these groups. It was only the subjective but reasoned morality of man, which Kalb is so suspicious of and so resents, that allowed us to move forward.


Kalb complains of the confusion and emptiness of allowing people their own versions of morality, but is social fulfillment really to be found in the stifling sameness of a uniform moralistic society? A society which looks beyond man's reasoning to a vague and nebulous objectivism from an equally vague and nebulous religion? We may still share a common understanding of the world and yet allow for tolerance and diversity. In the scheme of things our similarities are greater than our differences and our sexual preferences, our ethnicity and our personal sense of ethics need not be bound together by a conservatively modelled shared system of belief which is what Kalb seems to be suggesting. Shared values and a uniform morality might provide a kind of social order...but we run the risk of sacrificing truth and reason for the privilege.

Besides, there are other reasons for the "emptiness" and isolation infecting western culture too complex to go into here...consumerism, rapid technological change, globalisation...it's hardly fair to blame liberalism for every affliction of the modern psyche.


Unable to really provide us with a viable social alternative to man's subjective morality [which he erroneously calls a "religion"], except for some vague description of something mysterious "beyond man's knowledge"...[what I wonder? a moral tablet in the sky?] Kalb leaves us bereft of a solution and only a final pearl of wisdom...*the rest is in Gods hands*.

Flawed as it is, Mr. Kalb, I'll take man's attempts at reason and logic over a stagnant religious morality anyday. And in the end where does God and religion stem from anyway?

From man of course.
By Freedom
#21855
The author seems to draw a portrait of conservatives as a group which defines itself by the status quo...they are a kind of "social lemming", content to go with the social flow as long as there is consensus and established acceptance.


Capitalist and by extention conservatives are the only ones embracing change and progression. The wacko liberal enviromentalist seek nothing more than to go back instead of forward. Capitalism embraces technology and science much more than Liberals have tended to over the last half a decade. Capitalism, or the persuit of Capitalism, has been at heart of all progress made in the western world.

He appears to blame liberalism for everything from suicidal depression to the hurt feelings of racists who are compelled by anti-discrimination laws to work with blacks[my heart bleeds]. Apparently we'd all be much safer and mentally stable in our conservative cocoons. He also takes a swipe at libertarians because they are subjective moralists. Clearly he beieves or at least sees value in, the concept of an objective morality. His religious leanings permeate the essay...pollute it almost.


Conservatism asks nothing more than there to be a certain moral building block on which society moves forward. This does not mean religious values only a set of moral codes. In fact some Capitalist conservatives embrace Thomas Jeffersons views on religion and religious freedom. Personally i'm a Catholic and i'm pro life, however i do not seek to thrust my religious belief upon anyone, i believe totally in the seperation of church and state.

. I also resent the implication in that statement that athiesm equates with immorality. It does not


This is true. But again conservatism, if properly practiced, would seperate the church from the state.

How free were blacks, gays and women before feminism and the civil rights movement?


The original civil rights and feminist movements were a good thing. But they have become a sick joke upon themselves and have tarnished their good names forever.

Visit: http://www.capitalism.org/ its the best resource for at least part of my personal worldview and deals with many of the issues you raised more intelligently than i can.

Cya
By CasX
#22029
All rather disturbing for a good old socialist like me, I must say.

"What Conservatism isn't"

When I saw that I was going to start some betting odds on the next word.

Conservatism isn't...

...useful (paying $7.10)
...worthwhile (paying $2.55)
...progressive (paying $15.60)
...good (paying $8.40)
...fun (paying $1.20)
...cool (paying $34.60)

I played safe and put my money on "fun".

Freedom wrote:Capitalist and by extention conservatives are the only ones embracing change and progression


Haha! :moron:

Where do you get this stuff? It's gold! Pure gold!

CHANGE? Most (or all?) of the world is already capitalist, it is radicals who seek change more than fundy old conservative cronies. Isn't this obvious? Or do I need to spell it out...?
By Freedom
#22060
Where do you get this stuff? It's gold! Pure gold!

CHANGE? Most (or all?) of the world is already capitalist, it is radicals who seek change more than fundy old conservative cronies. Isn't this obvious? Or do I need to spell it out...?


Are you trying to tell me that "hippies" are emracing technology? that makes me laugh :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyways i suggest: http://www.capitalism.org
By Catria
#22307
Capitalist and by extention conservatives are the only ones embracing change and progression. The wacko liberal enviromentalist seek nothing more than to go back instead of forward. Capitalism embraces technology and science much more than Liberals have tended to over the last half a decade. Capitalism, or the persuit of Capitalism, has been at heart of all progress made in the western world.



Liberals live in a capitalist society too...many of them are scientists, engineers and inventors. Most liberals are not "communists" but favour a modified form of capitalism with checks and balances over the excesses and exploitations of the free market. They aren't for stopping progress...they just support the idea of seeing the profits of that progress benefiting the many as opposed to the few. The idea is that we control capitalism...we don't let it control us.

Since many conservatives embrace religious fundamentalism, they are often at odds with scientific principles. In fact historically, conservatives have been THE greatest single obstacle to the advancement of science. What about stem cell research, therepeutic cloning...and advances in birth control such as RU 486? Does it tend to be liberals or conservatives who oppose these? Are you seriously trying to claim that it is only conservatives who have advanced technological change?

Besides Freedom, that essay was all about socialconservatism and social liberalism. Take a glance back over the last hundred years and tell me which group has wrought the greater social changes...liberals or conservatives?

As a social group, it's conservatives who tend to wish to return to the past...when we lived in a world without welfare, without seperation of church and state, without sexual freedoms and civil rights for minorities. Sheesh, just read that essay.

*Incidentally "whacko hippies' do not represent liberals anymore than right-wing Neo-nazis represent conservatives.


Personally i'm a Catholic and i'm pro life, however i do not seek to thrust my religious belief upon anyone, i believe totally in the seperation of church and state.


Glad to hear it. Not all conservatives can be lumped together...just as not all liberals can.
User avatar
By Demosthenes
#22314
Hmmm... Catria, I thought I'd scared you off...well glad I'm not as powerful as all that. Interesting that when you came back you come straight here, not that you're not welcome, just that it's interesting. Anyway on to stopping your barrage of Liberalism that muct surely be the bane of my existance...(come on you grinned a little at that one...admit it...)

The author seems to draw a portrait of conservatives as a group which defines itself by the status quo...they are a kind of "social lemming", content to go with the social flow as long as there is consensus and established acceptance.
Well that is a bit insulting. Social Lemming...I don;t think so, if anything the same parallel could be drawn amongst any culture that follows the generation before it. As far as going with the flow...well if ain't broke, don't fix it!

This would suggest that conservatism is opportunistic rather than moral,
Once again I see the same principle applying to both sides not one or the other, Everyone is an opportunist in one way or the other, IMO- your claim is too general to ever have a chance of being completely accurate, but it isn't an unreasonable point on a smaller scale.

He appears to blame liberalism for everything from suicidal depression to the hurt feelings of racists who are compelled by anti-discrimination laws to work with blacks[my heart bleeds]. Apparently we'd all be much safer and mentally stable in our conservative cocoons. He also takes a swipe at libertarians because they are subjective moralists. Clearly he beieves or at least sees value in, the concept of an objective morality. His religious leanings permeate the essay...pollute it almost


Well if we're going to go there than I could say your own bias "pollutes" this discussion mightily. You assume the writer is speaking from a position of rascism. Whether this is from a percpetion gained from the media's portrayel of the average conservative or the apparently more European view that any right winger is automatically rascist cause that's what Hitler was I dont know nor do I care but when you allow for the possibility that someone can be right wing and not rascist at all your opinion looses steam.

I am actually one of the least rascist people I know. I have even been called a "black apologist" by a member named Nico for my suggestion that slavery's evils were the responsibility of both the black kings of the larger nations in Africa AND the slavers who were seeking flesh for free labor. hmmm...all this despite my having been raised around blacks my whole life, my friendship with several, and my staunch defense of them anytime they are treated unfairly. I could list many other personal examples but they are meaningless on an internet forum. My position on the issue does not move me any further to the left of the political spectrum and indeed I have known AS many lefties that are rascist as righties so this implication is false.

He refers to the pro-abortionists yet he doesn't call the opposition anti-abortionists...
I don't discuss that issue.

The first made the social order utterly this-worldly


Is it wrong to seperate church and state?
Nice try but this doesn't mean he somehow wants to unify church and state. Your suggestion is quite laced with demagogury. He's more referring to the idea that RADICAL liberalism has enabled the proverbial pendulum to swing too far away from some basic tradional values that even a centrist view is demogoged into being "prejudcial" and simply a hate message. If I say I believe in the role of the tradional family then I am a homophobe. Which I am not. That is his point. It has little to do with the seperation of church and state.

the third made family life a purely voluntary and private affair


As opposed to what....a social compulsion?
As opposed to family life no longer having much value to society as a whole. Single parents, Same sex parents, other degenerations of the tradional family unit are now portrayed as the norm and not the exception. To speak against these new status(es?) makes you a biggot.

Indeed I now have to post a disclaimer so no one will accuse me of being against single parents and homosexuals. First off I am a single parent myself so don't say I don't know what I'm talking about. My parents also divorced so I am familer with this from the inside too.

Secondly I only mention homosexuals as parents because it is a selfish person that puts their sexual desires ahead of the needs of their child. A child needs two parents whenever this is possible. A child of either sex needs both a mother and father to properly develop a well rounded view of themselves and the opposite sex. If homosexuals choose not have children then I have no issue with them. However in worst case scenarios when there is no other choice but state or private orphanages then I am a little more open to other options.

What conservatives (or at least me) have against these newly accpeted social norms is that these types of things revolve around making the children sacrifce for you and not you sacrificing for your children. Obviously no one is perfect but a medium should be reached somewhere between where we are now and the way it used to be. Invariably this opinion will win me few friends on either side. Liberals will still say I am a biggot, and conservatives will say I have gone bleeding heart on them. Oh well. This is how I see it.

So decisive has the triumph of radical liberalism been that no attempt to reverse the prayer decisions, civil rights laws or sexual revolution has had the slightest chance of success.


This is a bad thing??


Yes it is, quite bad. School prayer is not nearly the monster radical liberals make it out to be. Anyone of any religion may pray, or not. though actually I'm not that big on this idea myself, I just don't see it as the massive intrusion radical liberals have made it out to be. I'm not entierly against civial rights laws except where they overlap other existing laws, like murder for murder for instance.

The sexual revolution is a total disaster. I have spoken to Europeans who have visited here about our women and they are all incredulous as to how slefish and spoiled they have become. Many women in America emulate those things in men that always claimed to despice: promiscuity, unfaithfulness, disloyalty, and selfishness. Once again another example of how the pendulum has swung too far.

This doesn't mean I want women barefoot, stupid, and pregnant, as I can only guess you are inferring in your mind but once again there must be a midpoint between what we have now and what once was. The goal of many radical feminists is to be a better woman by becoming an even worse man. How the hell did this ever happen? IMO- it has gone too far in response to circumstances few women nowadays have ever had to contend with.

I know there's a so-called "glass ceiling" that women do have to contend with sometimes but this is nothing like the treatment they used to receive and in fact women here are amoung the most "liberated" in the world.

So to respond to this glass celing with rampant sexual stimulation and gratuitous oversexuality is unfair to these very women who are seeking this "Liberation" It in fact enslaves them all the more to becoming viewed purely as the sex objects of the very men they now claim to hate so much.

Of course men have a responsibility in this too and I do think it is wrong to write off any promisuous behavior in men as "boys will be boys" and then expect women to shoulder the entire burden. It should be a shared responsibility.

Liberalism makes no claim that everyone should be allowed to pursue all their desires
A centrist Liberal may not but the radical liberalism to which this article referrs certainly does.

over a religious one which does NOT operate on reason and is bound by a stagnant doctrine which cannot shift.


No doubt unyielding faith in Religion has caused many a probelm but so too does unyielding rejection of basic principles in the name of the illusion of greater personal freedom. So I am once again advocating some type of midpoint where a person doen't have to be shackled by ideas straight out of the 14th century but also maintains a sense of personal and famililial responsibility.

I also resent the implication in that statement that athiesm equates with immorality. It does not.


And though I do not, I'm sure he would resent your obviously low opion of his religion. I personally am neither for or against religion for anyone else. I have my own knowledge that sustains me, whatever anyone else has is up to them. But many a person without some type of faith will degenerate into a state of rampant immorality.

Not that everyone will but I mean... say like a drug dealer, pornographer, or such. My guess is few of them have any faith in anything but money and power and it is to people such as this that the question of the lack of faith and any real semblance of spirituality, in whatever form it takes is directed.

It's quite clear that this man yearns for the the days when a musty religious text gave us all a "common morality"...when men were free to be racist and sexist and church and state were intertwined to give us our "common values"...never mind those values were irational and damaging to many.


And I guess you are not minding that the values you are espousing are hurting just as many. I, personally am advocating something between these two views.

But he sees little value in diversity and denigrates tolerence as a liberal sham


In many ways divesity is a sham. Not the acceptance of other's who are different but the very buzzword called diversity. It is quite farcial in many ways.
Because conservatism clings to the established norms it was happy to go along with the oppression of these groups. It was only the subjective but reasoned morality of man, which Kalb is so suspicious of and so resents, that allowed us to move forward


To an extent I do agree here, certainly the movements had some benefits but now they have become too ponderous and too powerful for their own good.

Kalb complains of the confusion and emptiness of allowing people their own versions of morality, but is social fulfillment really to be found in the stifling sameness of a uniform moralistic society?


This sounds like something I would have assumed in my youth. Certainly we are all different and should have plenty of different ways of expressing these differences but only within some reasonable set of limits. It's not like you have to go to a Catholic church every sunday to have faith and believe in being responsible.

We may still share a common understanding of the world and yet allow for tolerance and diversity.


I don't think he was claiming anything to the contrary. Once again I think your bias is causing you to assume things he hasn't said.

Shared values and a uniform morality might provide a kind of social order...but we run the risk of sacrificing truth and reason for the privilege


And the lack therof runs the risk of massive sociatial breakdowns that could lead to...well a lot of the symptoms we're having right now.

Besides, there are other reasons for the "emptiness" and isolation infecting western culture too complex to go into here...consumerism, rapid technological change, globalisation...it's hardly fair to blame liberalism for every affliction of the modern psyche.


True again, to a point but I suppose only someone without faith would try to fill this void with such suggestions.

As to your final conclusion that you'd take man's attempts at reason over what you describe as stagnant religious morality I can only say that I would hope for a good combination of the two. Why must they be mutually exclusive? This is like the idea that science and religion (or faith, if you prefer) cannot exist side by side. I strongly disagree with that and part of your final conclusion. I think we can use man's reason and logic as well as strong faith to build a better society that can be of service to everyone equally. As long as those individuals can in turn be of service to society when they are called upon in whatever capacity they are able.

I am a strong fiscal conservartive but morally I am centrist. Hopefully my opinions here have illistrated those points.

Besides Freedom, that essay was all about socialconservatism and social liberalism. Take a glance back over the last hundred years and tell me which group has wrought the greater social changes...liberals or conservatives?


Liberals certainly have inspired more changes but at what cost? and I would argue that not all of these changes have been that beneficial.
As a social group, it's conservatives who tend to wish to return to the past...when we lived in a world without welfare, without seperation of church and state, without sexual freedoms and civil rights for minorities. Sheesh, just read that essay.


I'm sure he has. He is very...dutiful about that if you give him half a chance. I would guess he just got something totally different out of it than you did. He doesn't share your natural assumption that conservatism is, at it's core, about controlling you and your life at every turn; but is actually about being responsible for your actions and how they effect those around you.
By Catria
#22769
Hello Demosthenes....we meet again[draws sword]

Hmmm... Catria, I thought I'd scared you off...

I presume you are joking...Haha

Interesting that when you came back you come straight here, not that you're not welcome, just that it's interesting.

We liberals like to step outside our comfort zone and I'm interested in why conservatives think as they do. Though I can't stay in here too long due to the lack of oxygen.


You assume the writer is speaking from a position of rascism. Whether this is from a percpetion gained from the media's portrayel of the average conservative or the apparently more European view that any right winger is automatically rascist cause that's what Hitler was I dont know nor do I care but when you allow for the possibility that someone can be right wing and not rascist at all your opinion looses steam.

I assumed no such thing. I merely pointed out that Kalb wanted a society where people were free to be "racist", why he should raise this particular spectre to illustrate his point I dont know. He seems to equate liberalism with loss of personal freedom, yet in the same breath criticises it for "allowing people to get what they want". People can be racist in this society...they just can't do it legally. I did not say anywhere that conservatives were inherently racist. You have made that inference yourself.


He refers to the pro-abortionists yet he doesn't call the opposition anti-abortionists...
I don't discuss that issue.


I wasn't discussing that issue. I was refering to Kalbs inability to be objective here. An indication of where he's really at, that's all.


Nice try but this doesn't mean he somehow wants to unify church and state. Your suggestion is quite laced with demagogury. He's more referring to the idea that RADICAL liberalism has enabled the proverbial pendulum to swing too far away from some basic tradional values that even a centrist view is demogoged into being "prejudcial" and simply a hate message. If I say I believe in the role of the tradional family then I am a homophobe. Which I am not. That is his point. It has little to do with the seperation of church and state.

Kalb wants a religious morality. He does not want the liberal state to decide social mores and public morality, he is not interested in neutrality. Therefore what he is advocating is a kind of moral theocracy where our deepest values are decided by a "larger truth". Since only religion makes claim to an objective moral source larger than man, it must be religion he wants.

Believing in traditional family does not make you a homophobe...but believing in traditional family to the exclusion of other notions of family may. Liberalism does not seek to destroy the traditional family, it only wants to allow others a different view...this is really what Kalb is railing against. This is what he believes is destroying our "common shared values" and making us miserable. Better we were all compelled to follow the same morality as set out by religion. If you can't glean all this from his essay then I suggest you read it again.


Have your religion, but I see no reason why it should enjoy any special privileges regarding the state. No more than any other set of unverifiable beliefs such as astrology or crystal gazing.

Christianity enjoys such an illuminated and special place in our society simply because of its long established past. If we had never heard of it and it appeared in the world tomorrow as a new religion it would be decried as absurd and outrageous. Biblical morality when examined properly, engages in cruelty, intolerance...sexism, racism, anti-feminism and slavery. This may have well-served American slave owning society circa 1850...but is hardly beneficial to today. As mentioned earlier, conservatives tend to see proof of value in establishment without examining if that established thing is of true value in itself.

Kalb seems to suggest that religious absolutes will provide for our moral needs and he is not alone. Many conservatives would like to see the return of a religious morality "based on an authority higher than human purposes" but the truth is religion is just too dangerous, too firmly grounded in "unreason" to supply us with the social glue Kalb so desperately wants. Two centuries of heretic and witch burning during the great ages of faith in Europe should reveal to us the dangers of making religion your final moral arbiter. Liberalism may not be perfect, but we are stuck with it as the result of utter bankruptcy of all other systems.

In The Tyranny of Liberalism, Kalb has settled on the wrong miscreant. Conservatives tend to blame liberalism for the *moral decay* and emptiness of modern life. As Kalb puts it ..."a social order based on human desire".

But what many conservatives don't grasp or acknowledge is that much of the unhappiness and emptiness endemic in Western societies is not due to liberalism but rather its bastard child....modern capitalism. It's CAPITALISM which exploits everything it touches, including liberalism. It makes a commodity of human desire and attempts to satisy it where there is a chance of a profit. It even manufacturers unnecessary needs in the pursuit of private wealth. It's THIS which has led to the law of instant gratification, moral vacuity and shallow consumerism...NOT true liberalism.

Liberalism is needed as an antidote to the "unreason" which afflicts mankind. A liberal regards the sentient other as in some sense his equal, with a life independent of the crushing burden of the past and present. Liberalism is other regarding in a way that conservatism, communism, fascism, nazism and theocracy are not. These latter in the end aspire to fit straightjackets onto people.

It's true liberalism is somewhat threatened by its more unappealing fellow travellers...militant capitalism, post modernism and a variety of fashionable but illegitimate extensions of classic liberalism. How these are to be tackled I don't know, but ransacking the past for a mythical golden age seem like any sort of answer to me.

Economist Maynard Keynes was once asked why he was a liberal rather than a conservative. Keynes pointed to an impoverished village sunk in despair. A conservative, Keynes said, would say "how awful, but of course there is nothing that can be done." A liberal, on the other hand would say that "something must be done" and thus set about doing something.

This to me is one of the essential differences between liberalism and conservatism and one that Kalb himself alludes to. Conservatives will maintain the status quo as long as it serves their interests...while liberalism seeks to make change where it is necessary.
User avatar
By Demosthenes
#22774
Hello Demosthenes....we meet again[draws sword]

Hmmm... Catria, I thought I'd scared you off...

I presume you are joking...Haha
Yes, a joke. Glad you could appreciate it.

I assumed no such thing. I merely pointed out that Kalb wanted a society where people were free to be "racist", why he should raise this particular spectre to illustrate his point I dont know. He seems to equate liberalism with loss of personal freedom, yet in the same breath criticises it for "allowing people to get what they want". People can be racist in this society...they just can't do it legally. I did not say anywhere that conservatives were inherently racist. You have made that inference yourself.


I see you saying your not making this assumption but I cant help but come away with the same sentiment I had before. I never said you actually said this I said it seemd to me you were implying it. Well it still seems that way. Actually its very legal for someone to be rascist in this society. It's illegal to commit violent crimes for any reason, inlcuding rascism, but their is no crime committed simply by being a rascist.

As far as Liberalsim being consumate to a personal loss of freedom and giving people what they [think] they want I don 't entirely disagree with this. I'm not talking about a basic center left Liberal who just tries to look foreward, I'm talking about (And I think Kalb is too) the farther Lefties who seek all manner of so-called freedoms which are more centered around self-centereness than any actual freedoms. (freedom to smoke pot, freedom to exploit women through pornography, freedom to "if it feels good do it") All these mindsets seek to liberate the individual through outside means when clearly those involved in these practices are truly seeking inner freedom. And since people like Kalb have found that inner freedom through what I would argue is a much less self-destructive way of seeking peace than these liberal triumphs. i.e. religion. It is indeed these new tolerances for these types of behaviors that are quite responsible for the probelems associated with unwed mothers, drug addiction, alcohol dependancy, and a whole host of other problems. I'll deal with your pre-conceived notions of the evils of Christianity later.

He refers to the pro-abortionists yet he doesn't call the opposition anti-abortionists...
I don't discuss that issue.


I wasn't discussing that issue. I was refering to Kalbs inability to be objective here. An indication of where he's really at, that's all.

I didn't think you were I was simply making a personal statement.

Now for the fun part... :D

Kalb wants a religious morality. He does not want the liberal state to decide social mores and public morality, he is not interested in neutrality. Therefore what he is advocating is a kind of moral theocracy where our deepest values are decided by a "larger truth". Since only religion makes claim to an objective moral source larger than man, it must be religion he wants.


So really this is simply a difference of opinion in who should influence the will of the people and why. I agree that basing a society strictly on religious grounds is undesirable, yet I also think to completely throw away some basic religious tenets simply because the practice of these in the past has been less than perfect is folly. I did say in the beginning of this thread that this particular article is: "certainly up for interpratation" I was implying with this statement that I felt in some respects the article may not portray the views of more center right people, and may indeed be more farther right than most righties on this board are comfortable with. Take a look at the posts on this forum by the "righties" myself included. If you look objectively you will see none of us are strongly fundamentalist Christians.

Believing in traditional family does not make you a homophobe...but believing in traditional family to the exclusion of other notions of family may.


Well that then is up for interpetation I suppose there has to be a certian merit in a person's own opinion of themselves when it does not seek some type of braggartry or gloating. So when I say I do believe in the tradional family, am not homphobic, and yet don't think homosexuals should be married (at least in an ideal sense) then I feel I am making a statemtent that is not homophobic. If you feel this opinion is somehow not the way I see it, then so be it. I'm not advocating hurting anyone. I'm not personally claiming if homosexuals marry the world will end. I'm just saying there is oportunity cost to everything. In being a homosexual the opportunity cost is marriage. I amnot particulary against civil unions, however.

Liberalism does not seek to destroy the traditional family, it only wants to allow others a different view...this is really what Kalb is railing against. This is what he believes is destroying our "common shared values" and making us miserable. Better we were all compelled to follow the same morality as set out by religion.


Far left Liberalism has little respect for the tradional family. I could make the same suggestion that you re-examine some of the writings of those you associate your beliefs with.

Have your religion, but I see no reason why it should enjoy any special privileges regarding the state. No more than any other set of unverifiable beliefs such as astrology or crystal gazing.


Fair enough but I must not have been clear on this earlier I'm not personally all that religious. I fully understand that you must lead by example in matters of spirituality. To spout rhetoric about while living a life other than that which you speak is hardly the correct way to influence anyone. I say this because I'm inferring from your posts that most of your annoyance or outright dislike for religion comes from a sense that most religous people don't practice what they preach.

Unreasoning self-rightousness can indeed be frustrating and yet I wonder if in classifying the majority of religious people this way the point that in actuality it is the minority that behave as such is lost. I'm not trying to claim anyone is perfect but I'd take a person who is honestly trying to be faithful to their beliefs than someone who has none or bases their beliefs on dubious sourses any day. Again this may simply come down to differences of opinion.

Christianity enjoys such an illuminated and special place in our society simply because of its long established past. If we had never heard of it and it appeared in the world tomorrow as a new religion it would be decried as absurd and outrageous.
I simply disagree with this.

Biblical morality when examined properly, engages in cruelty, intolerance...sexism, racism, anti-feminism and slavery. This may have well-served American slave owning society circa 1850...but is hardly beneficial to today. As mentioned earlier, conservatives tend to see proof of value in establishment without examining if that established thing is of true value in itself.


Nonsense. Biblical morality should hardly be measured by these reprehensible practices. In fact most religious persons who are truly following their beliefs see these types of things as a corruption of thier morals. Truly proper examination of these values reveal equality, love, and respect even for those who come in conflict with the morals prescribed above. At least as I understand it.

But what many conservatives don't grasp or acknowledge is that much of the unhappiness and emptiness endemic in Western societies is not due to liberalism but rather its bastard child....modern capitalism. It's CAPITALISM which exploits everything it touches, including liberalism. It makes a commodity of human desire and attempts to satisy it where there is a chance of a profit. It even manufacturers unnecessary needs in the pursuit of private wealth. It's THIS which has led to the law of instant gratification, moral vacuity and shallow consumerism...NOT true liberalism.


Capitalism? Oh come on...are you now espousing Communism? I hardly see Capitalism as the evil you make it out to be. In fact while not being perfect it is the best system in practice today.

As far as making money out of human desire well why is that so evil? So you want to want to watch movies and I make them for sale to you? What's wrong with that? This line of thought opens a whole new can of worms that I don't care to debate. (Notice I don't visit the Communist forum all that often) If you feel capitalism is so evil then fine but you've lost me in terms of carrying on any reasonable debate on the topic.

Liberalism is needed as an antidote to the "unreason" which afflicts mankind. A liberal regards the sentient other as in some sense his equal, with a life independent of the crushing burden of the past and present. Liberalism is other regarding in a way that conservatism, communism, fascism, nazism and theocracy are not. These latter in the end aspire to fit straightjackets onto people.


What the heck? You can't be serious. Liberalism most certainly shackles just as many, if not more people to ignorance, tolerance for self-destruction, and outright malice as any other political philosphy. Its madness to make this assertion. Pure madness. Conservatism no more seeks to put people in straigtjackets than Liberalism, that is a tired old cliche' based on fear mongering and demogogery...It's a shame your post degenerated to this level.

You ever heard the old saying "You can give a man a fish and he eats for a day, but you can teach a man to fish and he eats for life? Well in this example the liberals exemplify this saying with social programs and "feel-good" politics that create an insidious dependancy on the state for survival.

Conservatism is the practice of tough love. Teaching a man(or a gal, for what's that worth) to fish so that he not only can support himself but could perhaps even grow to support his community. That is true personal empowerment. Conservatives don't advocate an end to social welfare to be mean, or because they want to starve kids, or because they are indifferent to suffering, as the rhetoric of the left claims but to build pride in oneself by actually accomplishing something useful to themselves and the community as a whole.

Economist Maynard Keynes was once asked why he was a liberal rather than a conservative. Keynes pointed to an impoverished village sunk in despair. A conservative, Keynes said, would say "how awful, but of course there is nothing that can be done." A liberal, on the other hand would say that "something must be done" and thus set about doing something


Unbelievably poor reasoning and inaccurate assement. I can only assume Keynes had his head up someone's keister to have made such a pitiful statement. To more accurately portray the scenario one would say: A liberal sees a starving village and wonders how to get the UN to airdrop some humanitarian supplies into the village.

A Conservative would seek ways to empower the village by first education than investment in the village to build up its ability to be competitve in the marketplace. Therby freeing the village from it's impoverishment and ending once and for all the misery implied by this example. Or they could just move to a better place. It is a free country ya know.

This to me is one of the essential differences between liberalism and conservatism and one that Kalb himself alludes to. Conservatives will maintain the status quo as long as it serves their interests...while liberalism seeks to make change where it is necessary.


You are of course entitled to your opinion, however as I am also entitled to mine I can't help but observe that this extreme pessimism toward conservatism does not allow you to view it in any other light than how it has been widely portrayed by the media and other sources. I do not have the same bias toward liberalism, as I have stated before I was once liberal, and so understand the mindset and find it lacking in practicality and objectivity. Liberalism is at it's core about finding your heart. Conservatism is at it's core about using your head. At least in America.

{Edit- sorry posted this late last night, I didn't realize how many typos I had left in.}
Last edited by Demosthenes on 19 Aug 2003 05:48, edited 1 time in total.
By Catria
#22778
Biblical morality when examined properly, engages in cruelty, intolerance...sexism, racism, anti-feminism and slavery. This may have well-served American slave owning society circa 1850...but is hardly beneficial to today. As mentioned earlier, conservatives tend to see proof of value in establishment without examining if that established thing is of true value in itself.


Nonsense. Biblical morality should hardly be measured by these reprehensible practices. In fact most religious persons who are truly following their beliefs see these types of things as a corruption of thier morals. Truly proper examination of these values reveal equality, love, and respect even for those who come in conflict with the morals prescribed above. At least as I understand it.


Er...are you saying that biblical morality should hardly be measured by the bible??? Now THAT is nonsensical. Have you read it...? Intolerance...sexism, racism, homophobia and slavery....these are all present and condoned within. This is where Kalbs idea of moral absolutism fails, because whether we believe in God or not, we still have to make judgements independent of Gods dictums[the Bible]. We must make our own interpretations....there is no such thing as a ready made moral authority...what he calls "a higher truth". Religion only clouds the issue. Equality, love and respect are all qualities existent independent of religion....where were these during the crusades an the inquisition? Where are they in militant Islam? I rather thing religion is more a danger to these concepts than a proponent of them.

Capitalism? Oh come on...are you now espousing Communism? I hardly see Capitalism as the evil you make it out to be. In fact while not being perfect it is the best system in practice today.

As far as making money out of human desire well why is that so evil? So you want to want to watch movies and I make them for sale to you? What's wrong with that? This line of thought opens a whole new can of worms that I don't care to debate. (Notice I don't visit the Communist forum all that often) If you feel capitalism is so evil then fine but you've lost me in terms of caying on any reasonable debate on the topic.



Dong. In this context I'm not debating the merits of capitalism or not. [I don't think capitalism is "evil"...I just dont think it should be allowed to run rampart.] I'm simply saying Kalb and others of his ilk fail to acknowledge its role in the moral emptiness of modern society...what Kalb describes as a "social order based on human desire". Capitalism shares a large part of the responsibility for this. It is Kalb who is questioning a society driven by desire....if you don't think there's anything wrong with this take it up with Kalb.


Conservatism no more seeks to put people in straigtjackets than Liberalism, that is a tired old cliche' based on fear mongering and demogogery...It's a shame your post degenerated to this level.

The conservatism Kalb advocates would seek to straightjacket people through a uniform religious morality. It's you who seem stubbornly blind to the implications of kalbs moral essay. If we look to "moral absolutes" to guide us we stifle reason and diversity. Remember his essay is all about social conservatism and social conservatism is notorious for its rigidity and straight jacket moralism. God, unquestioning patriotism and traditional family...that is the tight glove of conservatism and unfortunately[or thankfully] it doesn't fit everyone.


Unbelievably poor reasoning and inaccurate assement. I can only assume Keynes had his head up someone's keister to have made such a pitiful statement. To more accurately portray the scenario one would say: A liberal sees a starving village and wonders how to get the UN to airdrop some humanitarian supplies into the village. A Conservative would seek ways to empower the village by first education than investment in the village to build up its ability to be competitve in the marketplace. Therby freeing the village from it's impoverishment and ending once and for all the poverty implied by this statement. or they could just move to a better place. It is a free country ya know.

The village is meant as a metaphor Demosthenes.... It's liberalism which has sought change for the poor and given modern man his social conscience. It's liberals who have won rights for poor workers and minorities. Its liberals who have rejected the atavistic tenets of religious dogmatism. Its liberals who have fought the establishment to raise the standards for the majority at every turn. Conservatism did nothing until it was forcibly nudged from it's fat stupour by the reason and conscience of Liberalism.
By Freedom
#22803
The village is meant as a metaphor Demosthenes.... It's liberalism which has sought change for the poor and given modern man his social conscience. It's liberals who have won rights for poor workers and minorities. Its liberals who have rejected the atavistic tenets of religious dogmatism. Its liberals who have fought the establishment to raise the standards for the majority at every turn. Conservatism did nothing until it was forcibly nudged from it's fat stupour by the reason and conscience of Liberalism.


I dont want to get involved much in this debate. But i will say that this is simply a misrepresentation of history and historical fact. Anyone who looks at history will find that neither conservatives nor Liberals have ever been as benelovant and as clever as they claim to be. to say the Liberalism is the sole cause of good over the last centrury is ricdiculous(bahh damn spelling) and grossly lacking in any real substance. A conservative would hold extra importance on fact A but a Liberal more so importance on fact B, any look at this kind of history would be largely neutral, only un-neutral by your viewpoint on the importance of an individual event.

Two examples(outta many) several of the neo-conservative thinkers are former Civil Rights marchers as was Charlton Heston and other NRA members, also various leaders across history of the NRA have been militantly opposed to the KKK and racism, and of course the NRA is a major hate figure amongst left-wingers in America and of course Bowling for Columbine believers. American conservatives deal mainly with upholding the constitution and Americas founding ideals ie "All men are created free and equal" and what have you, looking at the civil rights marches in that light shows how any self respecting America conservative would've support civil rights back then. Today most conservatives feel Gender feminists(those feminists who want more than just equal rights) and modern civil rights groups are basically attacking constitutional rights and individual freedoms for all. Case in point "Affirmaitve Action" the most grossly racist law i've seen in a few years anywere.

Also its not liberals(pre-supposing that all left-wingers are anti free trade) who are proposing any practical measures for helping the poor or actually doing anything practical to combat it, remember that, you have no factual basis to support this thesis.

Leave faulty inaccurate history out of a discussion on ideolodical principals, please.

Just a thought.
By Catria
#22865
Anyone who looks at history will find that neither conservatives nor Liberals have ever been as benelovant and as clever as they claim to be.

You could well be right there.

Also its not liberals(pre-supposing that all left-wingers are anti free trade) who are proposing any practical measures for helping the poor or actually doing anything practical to combat it, remember that, you have no factual basis to support this thesis.

Do you have any examples of this? What practical solutions have conservatives offered the poor in the USA in the last hundred years for example?

Leave faulty inaccurate history out of a discussion on ideolodical principals, please.

What I said is neither faulty nor inaccurate. I'm not saying no conservative has ever acted for social change or the rights of the poor and marginialized. What I AM saying is that the major progressive social changes which have swept Western history have been born of Liberalism. Point me to the significant social changes in the last century which have incorporated the following three elements:

a)caused a major change in attitude within the society

b)benefited either the poor, ethnic minorities or women or enhanced workers rights or human rights in general.

c)been instigated by conservatism...?
By Freedom
#22867
You could well be right there.


Damn right i'm right. All history is blinded by the spin individual historians put on things, rather than facts.

Do you have any examples of this? What practical solutions have conservatives offered the poor in the USA in the last hundred years for example?


Free Trade Baby, its working all over the world and is eliavting poverty globally unlike the "leftist" mentallity to drop food supplies blindly upon them. The radical left seems to have trouble accepting this, maybe the centre left are different but were the hell are they gone these days?

What I said is neither faulty nor inaccurate. I'm not saying no conservative has ever acted for social change or the rights of the poor and marginialized. What I AM saying is that the major progressive social changes which have swept Western history have been born of Liberalism. Point me to the significant social changes in the last century which have incorporated the following three elements:

a)caused a major change in attitude within the society

b)benefited either the poor, ethnic minorities or women or enhanced workers rights or human rights in general.

c)been instigated by conservatism...?


Winston Churchill...world war two...nazis...bad...we won...he got us to fight...never mind

Also, Abraham Lincoln was a Republican: http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/al16.html
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/ ... 3&pn=1#s17

George Washington:
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/gw1/about/washingt.htm
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/ ... 4&pn=5#s53

There is three.

I dont claim that Conservatives in America or anywhere else can claim 100% that history to be on there side, only that it is on neithers side as different things are important to different people.
User avatar
By Demosthenes
#22899
Er...are you saying that biblical morality should hardly be measured by the bible???
No I'm saying there is more than one book in the bible. In the New testament things change. You can't just pick out all the "Old Testament rage-of-god" stuff and take nothing else out of it. Well, I guess you can but it is an inaccurate portrayal.

Here is where I find I've made a slight mistake in refutation. It seems I am more playing Devil's Advicate in defending Kalb's stance on religion. I personally consider myself a Social Centrist. It is Fiscally that I am conservative. Because of this I am finding that I cannot accurately argue two points against your one.

I have made my view on religion quite clear...I think, but I will try one last time. Fundamental anything is not healthy for anyone, I agree with that. However, just because a given person is religious and that influences their political leanings, doesn't mean they are a flaming fundamental Christian. To claim religion has never had a positive influence on people is incorrect. Like Freedom's claim about Conservatism and Liberalism, religion has had it's ups and downs. Where I see it as being the most successful is in a regular ordinary person's daily life. Where they learn self-disipline, caring for others, and such.

On the flip side when religion becomes strictly a social club, a tool to be used to control the masses, or even gets abused as the basis for violence I loose respect for those who practice it. These are actions more consistant with a fundamentalist view. Additionally you mention the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the militant Islamic community as reasons for hating religion. To me this represents a horrific stereotype that compeltely misses the good religion can do.

To me this is tantamount to rascism and certainly not consistant with your portrayal of Liberalism as "foreward thinking" That's like me stating that because many blacks are imprisoned for crimes they have actually committed all blacks are bad and don't deserve a voice or human rights. Talk about stifling Freedom of Speech. Once again if you can't see this then we''ll never come to a consensus.

Dong.
Dong??? Is this like GONG??? Did you just Gong me? Easy Chuck Barris... :eh:

The conservatism Kalb advocates would seek to straightjacket people through a uniform religious morality. It's you who seem stubbornly blind to the implications of kalbs moral essay.


I think what is happening is that you see this essay with your pessimistic view of religion and I am seeing it in an optimistic light. Perhaps his intentions are to convert everyone to his religion and perhaps he just hopes the "idealistic' values of his religion will be spread and influence people more than the corruption that is so prevalent in some places today. I see him coming from a place of tough love, you see him coming from a place of control, corruption, and power

I suspect that if Kalb were a radical greenie we would be having the debate in opposite postures. I would see the negative impacts due to my distrust of radical greenies and their mostly baseless goals and you would argue the benefits of them based on your faith in such goals. This is simply two people using two different types of logic to debate a point. I won't convince you that your logic on radical envirenmentalism is flawed and you won't coonvince me that it isn't. In that light perhaps we can understand each others points more effectively.

It's liberals who have won rights for poor workers and minorities. Its liberals who have rejected the atavistic tenets of religious dogmatism. Its liberals who have fought the establishment to raise the standards for the majority at every turn. Conservatism did nothing until it was forcibly nudged from it's fat stupour by the reason and conscience of Liberalism
Whoa...that is quite a claim I'm not sure I wanna go there, I like Freedom's pragmatism on that issue:

Anyone who looks at history will find that neither conservatives nor Liberals have ever been as benelovant and as clever as they claim to be.


Your claim that liberals are more "moral or compassionate" is baseless. Liberals act to make the people "feel" better. Social Security "feels" nice. Welfare "feels" nice, most socail programs "feel" nice. Unfortunately feelings arn't the proper thing to run a country with. Logic and reason is. Certaily we can temper our logic and reason with emotion but to be led by our emotions is foolish, and one of the biggest complaints I have against the "day-to-day" liberals.

The types of movements Liberals follow have more to do with attracting different types of constituents than they really do about any "higher" morals. That is the fallocy of the Democratic party and liberals in general. The liberal leadership has just as much money, capital, and indutrial contacts as the Republicans and Conservatives do. To claim otherwise is simple blindness to the truth. Or plain foolishness. So I'm expected to rationally believe that Liberal politicians care more about me than Conservatives do? HAH! That's a joke. The only difference is that the Liberals get their money from Radical envirenmentalists, Hollywood, and yes coorporations like Enron (whose political donations were spread roughly equally throughout both parties)

I will give you one thing. You have at least given some thought to your positions, which is refreshing considering the typical level of debate most liberals engage in. In case you missed it that's a compliment, coming from me. :coffee:
By Catria
#23037
Aren't there any other liberals interested in this discussion? Am I alone left to defend liberalism against this accusation of Tyranny?

Freedom...I think holding up Winston Churchill as a bastion of social change is clutching at straws a bit? Can you really say the free worlds defence against Nazi Germany was instigated by conservatism? IN 1939 several notable conservatives thought Hitler was a great guy. I will say conservatives are less reticent to embark on wars...that is true.

Looked at in an historical context, I'm not 100% sure you can hold up Old Republicans like Lincoln and Washington as representative of conservativism as the ideology we know today. But okay, maybe you can. Since you have such a paucity of examples I'd feel mean denying you this.

I'm sure the concept of free trade is a great comfort to all those poor people in the USA.


I will give you one thing. You have at least given some thought to your positions, which is refreshing considering the typical level of debate most liberals engage in. In case you missed it that's a compliment, coming from me.


Why, thankyou Demosthenes, I feel strangely thrilled by that kernel of appreciation.[friendly smile]


No I'm saying there is more than one book in the bible. In the New testament things change. You can't just pick out all the "Old Testament rage-of-god" stuff and take nothing else out of it. Well, I guess you can but it is an inaccurate portrayal.


Christians pick and choose from the Bible all the time. Why isn't their portrayal "inaccurate"?

You're right, I cannot claim religion has never had a positive effect on anyone or has never had any positive influence in a wider social sense. It has been both bad and good. I don't want to deny people their personal religions...my argument is that as the source of a universal moral system religion is sorely inadequate. Therefore Kalb is wrong in imagining it is a better option than a morality based on man's reason. But I know you already grasp what I'm saying there.


Your claim that liberals are more "moral or compassionate" is baseless. Liberals act to make the people "feel" better. Social Security "feels" nice. Welfare "feels" nice, most socail programs "feel" nice. Unfortunately feelings arn't the proper thing to run a country with. Logic and reason is. Certaily we can temper our logic and reason with emotion but to be led by our emotions is foolish, and one of the biggest complaints I have against the "day-to-day" liberals.


Oh puhleeeeease! Come on...are you saying conservatives don't have emotional responses? It's just that their emotions run the other end of the gammit...many conservatives[not all, but many] "hate" single mothers...they despise welfare with orgasmic intensity...they think people are "losers"....environmentalists are "tree hugging wimps". they cheer on war with enormous emotion....they wave flags, sing Gods praises...weep at Charlton Heston speeches.

Liberals aren't anymore emotional than anyone else. Unfortunately, caring about poor people, the environment, and the general sorry and inequitable state of the world is put down by many conservatives as *weakness* and ineffectual *emotional bleeding heartism*. Yet I don't see too many solutions coming from the conservative ranks. They either don't see the problems or don't want to see them.

Where is the "logic and reason" in a healthcare system that leaves so many Americans out in the cold? Where is the "logic and reason" in the phenomenum of the working poor? Where is the "logic and reason" in the antiquated drugs laws that fill our jails with miscreants? Where is the "logic and reason" in draconian jail terms and the death penalty? Where are all these reasonable solutions to the environmental crisis which many conservatives don't even acknowledge! Where is the "logic and reason" in the religious fundamentalism that grips so many conservatives?

Where are all these "logical and reasonable" solutions to everything....?


Just one thing I want to clarify...I don't think liberals as individuals are necessarily always more compassionate than individual conservatives. That would really be a silly thing to claim. But I think a strong argument can be made that Liberalism as an ideology is more compassionate, socially progressive and caring and sharing than Conservatism.

But as conservatives....maybe you don't see these things as positives!
By Freedom
#23043
Freedom...I think holding up Winston Churchill as a bastion of social change is clutching at straws a bit? Can you really say the free worlds defence against Nazi Germany was instigated by conservatism? IN 1939 several notable conservatives thought Hitler was a great guy. I will say conservatives are less reticent to embark on wars...that is true.

Looked at in an historical context, I'm not 100% sure you can hold up Old Republicans like Lincoln and Washington as representative of conservativism as the ideology we know today. But okay, maybe you can. Since you have such a paucity of examples I'd feel mean denying you this.


Now you are trying to claim that Liberals won WW2 aswell? What the hell?

I think the problem you have is with the far right or the Religious conservatives and you are trying to paint a picture that this is the only form of conservatism. This is like me trying to say that all liberals are Communists or anarchists. If you want to know the kinds of conservatism i support visit: http://www.capitalism.org/ again i have some beliefs opposing what is said on this site, but largely this sums it up.

. But okay, maybe you can. Since you have such a paucity of examples I'd feel mean denying you this.


Since i've finally found out that Churchill, Lincoln and Washington are not conservatives but Liberals in disguise, as was every good dead done by every good conservative throughout history.

I give you another: The Industrial Revolution. This is a totally Capitalistic/Libertarian(me)/Conservative thingimy. It built modern society and is now building the poorest countries in the world again(note worthy-Far left thinkers are now opposing the Industrial revolutions ongoing around the world-its only logical that they wouldve done the same back in the first Industrial revolution). But i'm sure this was yet another clever liberal ploy... :roll:

I will say this again: History is all relative, people hold different things to be important, therefore any view of History will be tainted. This is no more obvious than on this board. To claim that Liberals are constantly pushing things forward is just wrong, and this raping of history by left wing "thinkers" must end.

Enviromentalism: Based on phony, inaccurate science: http://www.junkscience.com

Health Care: A Libertarian take on it:- http://www.cato.org/healthcare/issues.html
http://www.cato.org/research/healthandw ... lfare.html







[/quote]
By Freedom
#23049
Conservatives Can Be Proud of Their Civil Rights Record

After Lott, the GOP's conservative base does not need a "heart transplant" as Senator Frist suggests, it needs a "memory transplant." Shortly after the downfall of Trent Lott as Senate Majority Leader, NRO's Jonah Goldberg noted that "Conservatives — though not Republicans — were often at best MIA on the issue of civil rights in the 1960s." That's not exactly right. Bread-and-butter conservatives in Congress (as opposed to conservative writers), that is, men such as Everett Dirksen and Bill McCulloch in the 1960s and Bill Knowland in the 1950s, were strong supporters of equal rights for all Americans. Let us reexamine the history of conservative and Republican involvement in the creation of racial equality under law in this country over the past half-century.

In the 1950s, while Republican President Dwight Eisenhower sent troops to Little Rock, Arkansas, to enforce the Supreme Court's school-desegregation ruling, Senator John Sparkman of Alabama (Democrat presidential candidate Adlai Stevenson's former vice-presidential running mate) protested this desegregation decision by signing the congressional "Southern Manifesto" attacking the court's ruling. In 1957 the Eisenhower administration, led by Republican Attorney General Herbert Brownell, steered through Congress the first civil-rights bill since Reconstruction. In that fight over protecting voting rights, veteran civil-rights lobbyist Harry L. Kingman described Republican Senate Leader William Knowland of California (a strong conservative) as a "key man in the victory." Clearly, Republican leader Knowland took a stronger pro-civil-rights stand than Democrat Senate Leader Lyndon Johnson of Texas, who at the time was accused by some civil-rights groups of introducing amendments that weakened the bill.

In examining the crucial civil-rights issues of the 1960s we should: (1) revisit the role Republicans (and particularly conservative Republicans) played in the passage of the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964, and (2) reexamine the original intent of the bill itself. Contrary to popular amnesia, it was the congressional Republicans, not the Democrats, who were most responsible for this great victory for equal civil rights for all Americans.

The civil-rights bill of 1964 was enacted with strong bipartisan and bi-ideological (conservative and liberal) support. But, the credit for the civil-rights victory has gone almost exclusively to liberals and Democrats, particularly to Senator Hubert Humphrey (D, Minn.) in Congress, and to Presidents Kennedy and Johnson. However, much of the hard work of advancing the legislation was done by congressional Republicans — conservative stalwarts including Everett McKinley Dirksen of Illinois, Charles Halleck of Indiana, William McCulloch of Ohio, Robert Griffin of Michigan, Robert Taft Jr. of Ohio, Clarence Brown of Ohio, Roman Hruska of Nebraska, and moderates such as Thomas Kuchel of California, Kenneth Keating of New York, and Clark MacGregor of Minnesota. All of these Republicans served as major leaders of the pro-civil-rights coalition either as floor managers or captains for different sections of the bill.

Although the Democrats controlled both houses of the Congress at the time, a much-higher percentage of Republicans than Democrats supported the civil-rights bill. For example, in the House, Republicans voted for civil rights by a margin of 79 percent to 21 percent, 136-35. The Democrats' margin was 153-91 or 63 percent to 37 percent.

However, the single-most-important vote for the legislation was the attempt to cut off the anti-civil-rights filibuster in the Senate. In order for the bill to pass, civil-rights supporters needed two thirds of the Senate to break a filibuster by the opposition. Republicans voted overwhelmingly to break the filibuster by 81.8 percent (27-6), but only 65.7 percent of the Democrats voted to end the filibuster (44-23). Thus, if only Republicans in the Congress had voted, any potential filibuster would easily have been overridden. But, if only Democrats had voted, the pro-civil-rights forces would not have been able to obtain the necessary two/thirds vote to break the filibuster and the civil-rights bill would have died. No Republicans in Congress, no civil-rights bill — it is as simple as that.

Only a handful of Republicans opposed the civil-rights bill. The most prominent among them was Senator Barry Goldwater of Arizona, who became the party's presidential candidate in 1964. Interestingly, Goldwater had always been a strong supporter of racial equality and supported the Eisenhower civil-rights bills of 1957 and 1960 that strengthened voting rights for African Americans. As Lee Edwards noted in The Conservative Revolution: "As chief of staff of the Arizona National Guard he [Goldwater] had pushed for desegregation of the guard two years before President Truman desegregated the U.S. armed forces." Goldwater stated that workforce discrimination was "morally wrong," but worried that in the future the federal government might "require people to discriminate on the basis of color or race or religion" and, thus, in the end, opposed the bill.

The civil-rights bill of 1964 banned discrimination in voting, public accommodations, education, federal programs, and employment on the basis of race, ethnicity, or sex. In supporting the legislation, the bipartisan coalition invoked Judeo-Christian tradition, the Founding Fathers, the Declaration of Independence and particularly the concept of "equality of opportunity." Southern Democrat opponents charged that the legislation would lead to racial preferences, but the bipartisan congressional leaders clearly stated that this was not the intent of the bill.

On April 9, 1964, Hubert Humphrey replied to the allegation that Title VII on employment discrimination would lead to racial preferences by stating, "It the Senator can find in Title VII…any language which provides that an employer will have to hire on the basis of percentage or quota related to color, race, religion, or national origin, I will start eating the pages one after another, because it is not in there."

To ensure that the bill would not be misinterpreted to promote racial and gender preferences, the pro-civil forces added an amendment to Title VII, Section 703 (j) that stated, "Nothing contained in this title shall be interpreted to require any employer…to grant preferential treatment to any individual or any group because of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin…on account of an imbalance which may exist…with respect to the total number or percentage of persons of any race, color, religion, or sex, or national origin…in comparison with the total number or percentage of persons…in any community…or in any available work force…."

By the end of the debate more than 40 members of Congress denounced racial and gender preferences, and no one spoke in favor of them. Opposition to preferences was voiced by liberals including: George McGovern (D, S.D.), Edmund Muskie (D, Md.), Adam Clayton Powell (D, N.Y.), and John Lindsay (R, N.Y.), as well as conservatives including: Everett Dirksen (R. Il.), Gordon Allot (R, Co.), Frank Carlson (R, Kan.), and James Bromwell (R, Iowa).

Alas, in the decades since the passage of the civil-rights bill, judicial activism, and bureaucratic rulemaking have violated the clear intent of the Congress in prohibiting racial and gender preferences.

Since 1964, two serious efforts have been launched to recapture the American principles of individual rights and equal opportunity embodied in the original legislation. First, in the 1980s, the Reagan Justice Department under Edwin Meese and Bradford Reynolds challenged group preferences in the name of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Second, in the 1990s, the California Civil Rights Initiative (Proposition 209) and Washington State's initiative I-200, promoted by Ward Connerly, used the language of the 1964 Civil Rights Act in successful referenda that outlawed racial and gender preferences in those states.

Most conservatives and Republicans stood with Meese and Reynolds, and with Connerly. Those who did not should be ashamed of themselves, for they betrayed the spirit of Dirksen, Halleck, McCulloch, and those other rock-ribbed conservative Republicans who played such a large part in enacting the most important civil-rights legislation of the century. Conservatives and Republicans who understand both the history of their party and the bedrock constitutional and moral principles on which it rests will not permit themselves to be browbeaten by the Lott affair. Instead, they will press on by supporting a return to the original intent of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (as well as the foundational principles of the American republic) and the elimination of racial-, ethnic-, and gender-group preferences — once and for all.
By Catria
#23060
Now you are trying to claim that Liberals won WW2 aswell? What the hell?


Of course not! [laughs] But it seems you are trying to claim conservatism saved the world from Hitler. I would never deny Churchill was a conservative and unlike Chamberlain, acted swiftly and resolutely against Nazism. But it's completely wrong to say the defeat of Germany was the single victory of one man or the single victory of conservatism in particular. I suggest it was a combined effort from many quarters.


I think the problem you have is with the far right or the Religious conservatives and you are trying to paint a picture that this is the only form of conservatism.


I do tend to typecast...I'll concede that as a fair point.

Since i've finally found out that Churchill, Lincoln and Washington are not conservatives but Liberals in disguise, as was every good dead done by every good conservative throughout history.


AW...c'mon, I said you could have Lincoln and Washington.

The Industrial Revolution. This is a totally Capitalistic/Libertarian(me)/Conservative thingimy. It built modern society and is now building the poorest countries in the world again(note worthy-Far left thinkers are now opposing the Industrial revolutions ongoing around the world-its only logical that they wouldve done the same back in the first Industrial revolution). But i'm sure this was yet another clever liberal ploy...


This is interesting. Yes, the industrial revolution was a progressive shift that brought about far-reaching and massive social change. It was a development of capitalism[THE great development] caused by technological invention. You simply cannot say the industrial revolution was a result of conservatism....that is ridiculous. It happened independent of conservatism and liberalism.

Freedom, you have a completely erroneous idea of Liberalism. Liberalism believes in freedoms too...it is not ANTI-CAPITALISM fullstop. Both liberalism and conservatism work within the same system. The difference is liberals want checks and balances on capitalism to ensure a greater share of the economic pie for the majority. They are more socially radical, whereas conservatives believe in holding on to things they deem as good and are more amenable to change over a much longer period. Liberals favour government regulations where they think necessary, conservatives believe in as little government interference as possible.

SO...We are not communists, rabid socialists or whacky freaked out hippies in tie-dye stretch pants. Some liberals might be one or more of these things...but then some conservatives might be mouth-foaming bible-humpers, fascists and neo-nazis. To reach a middle ground lets get a very simple definition happening:

From The OXFORD dictionary:

conservative • adjective 1 averse to change and holding traditional values. 2 (in a political context) favouring free enterprise, private ownership, and socially conservative ideas. 3 (Conservative) relating to a Conservative Party.


liberal • adjective 1 willing to respect and accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own. 2 (of a society, law, etc.) favourable to individual rights and freedoms. 3 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate reform.


I will say this again: History is all relative, people hold different things to be important, therefore any view of History will be tainted. This is no more obvious than on this board. To claim that Liberals are constantly pushing things forward is just wrong, and this raping of history by left wing "thinkers" must end.


Did I ever claim liberals pushed "all things" forward? I think I claimed that as an ideology, Liberalism has been more socially progressive than conservatism, more interested in social justice and has generally been a greater "conscience" to society than conservatism has. I don't think that claim is wrong or unreasonable. Conservatism by its nature seeks to preserve the status-quo and is thus resistant to social change.


*I'm an Australian Freedom, so I'm not well versed in your civil rights history. But it seems like those Southern Democrats let the side down badly.
User avatar
By Comrade Ogilvy
#23076
The difference is liberals want checks and balances on capitalism to ensure a greater share of the economic pie for the majority.

Translation: Tax the hardworking more, provide more welfare for the lazy, and eventually retreat into communism.
Liberals favour government regulations where they think necessary,

Translation: Liberals want to curb your constitutional rights, such as freedom of speech and press, and your right to possess arms.
liberal: 3 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate reform.
That may be how Oxford saw it 150 years ago, but you need a reality check if you believe modern liberals hold these values.
By Freedom
#23086
Of course not! [laughs] But it seems you are trying to claim conservatism saved the world from Hitler. I would never deny Churchill was a conservative and unlike Chamberlain, acted swiftly and resolutely against Nazism. But it's completely wrong to say the defeat of Germany was the single victory of one man or the single victory of conservatism in particular. I suggest it was a combined effort from many quarters


Now you see, this was the point i was trying to make about history...anyway I still hold up that the defeat of the Nazi(and then Soviets) was the most progressive thing this whole century, and of course the man who fought it was Churchill, not alone of course, but he was a figure head.

It happened independent of conservatism and liberalism


Today, when countries are going through the same albeit very difficult transistion, liberals tend to want to interupt rather than let it play out its course. This, in my belief, is what got most of these countries into such a sucky position, Foreign aid and over-socialisation caused years of Famine and suffering al la-Ethiopia, Mazampique and China amongst others. So judging by todays liberals its safe to say that back in the first industrial revolution, they'd be looking for enforced minimum wage, higher business tax and mountains of regulations and thus destroy our chances...

neo-nazis


Its arguable that Hitler wasnt even a right wing dictator, more of a centrist dictator, if you understand, same with Mussolini.

Even todays British Nationalist Party are not exactly right wing :hmm:

favourable to individual rights and freedoms


This is a modern conservative idea

favouring individual liberty, free trade


This is a modern conservative idea

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