Adolf Hitler as Christian as Ronald Reagan - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Traditional 'common sense' values and duty to the state.
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#14617455
Heinie wrote:Where is the evidence to support your claim that Catholics were as likely to be enemies of the Nazi Party as supporters, I wonder. The Nazi base was in Catholic Bavaria and one issue more than any other united Catholics; like all Nazis, they despised Communism with a passion and the failure of conservative Catholic politicians in the Weimar Republic in stamping-out the Reds during catastrophic inflation and the consequent instability of the state was manifest. Catholics, especially successful farmers in Bavaria and the working class found a natural home in the NSDAP.


The voting results speak a different language: The NSDAP had lower results in the Catholic South than in Protestant Prussia:

Image

OTOH, you had that certain "understanding" between the Nazis and the Pope... so let's say that the Church on both sides of the Main was complicit - no need to point fingers 70 years after the fact.
#14617913
Rich wrote:Hitler has been designated the most evil man in the history of the world.

That's just because the Jews are sore about the Final Solution. Stalin killed many more, as did Mao. As I've said before, 35M people have died from HIV/AIDS, which other than parent-child pre-natal transmission or tainted blood transfusions is usually transmitted by licentious sexual activity or drug addiction--the sort of hedonism embraced by the political left.

Rich wrote:Key lieutenants such as Himmler and Goebels were Catholics.

That's somewhat nominal. It's like calling me a Catholic. Goebels was directly involved in trying to create a totally different state religion based on Nazism.

Rich wrote:The Reagan Administration's willingness to describe the Afghan conflict as a holy war speaks to their utter contempt for Christianity.

That's hardly showing contempt for Christianity. The Soviet Union was intent on stamping it out, so Christians and communists were natural enemies.
#14617917
Goebels was anticlerical but his private writings like the novel Michael reveal a genuine devotion to Jesus (whom the churches supposedly betrayed), and that he considered the Nazi struggle to be a struggle for "Christ-socialism".

Maybe you meant Bormann or Rosenberg?
#14618355
From what I understand, the degree to which Hitler was believing Christian is still a matter of contention. Most of the anti-Christian statements come from the famous Table Talk, but the text here varies a lot by translation. At the very least the Nazis were outwardly Christian. The German army belt buckles said "God is With Us". Hitler was born and raised as a Catholic, and never completely rejected Catholicism. He certainly criticized certain doctrines of the Catholic church, but so do many Catholics today (or Protestants for that matter). This doesn't mean he wasn't Catholic.
#14618382
The Catholic Church did, however, leave him.

The Church's supposed support of fascism is really part of the Black Legend more than anything. The Church condemned fascism as something that, "We do not accept," and an ideology that was, "pagan worship of the state," that constituted a, "revolution which snatches the young from the Church and from Jesus Christ, and which inculcates in its own young people hatred, violence and irreverence.”

It's pretty hard to square that with Hitler's alleged Catholicism.
#14618384
The Immortal Goon wrote: The Catholic Church did, however, leave him. The Church's supposed support of fascism is really part of the Black Legend more than anything.

The church was pretty openly split on the Axis / Allied issue ... Initially, when Germany and Italy were riding high, the emphasis was on support and conciliation. As the war progressed and Axis potential declined, the opposition became more vocal and were given more latitude. Ironically the priests that had been aiding Jews, Escaped POWs, and Italian Partisans, also wound up helping Nazis to flee abroad after the war ended.

Church cooperation with fascists was VERY pronounced in Spain. Opus Dei actually began there as a reaction to the communist tendency to shoot priests on sight.

Zam
#14618393
The Immortal Goon wrote:The Catholic Church did, however, leave him.

Hitler was not excommunicated.

The Church's supposed support of fascism is really part of the Black Legend more than anything. The Church condemned fascism as something that, "We do not accept," and an ideology that was, "pagan worship of the state," that constituted a, "revolution which snatches the young from the Church and from Jesus Christ, and which inculcates in its own young people hatred, violence and irreverence.”

From where does this quote come? It reads like a Church that does not want competition for the minds of children.

It's pretty hard to square that with Hitler's alleged Catholicism.

Hitler was a Catholic; this is no mere allegation.
#14618472
Well, the Catholic Church would have acted suicidally by excommunicating him, and German Catholics would have been put under a great risk that way. For this I wouldn't blame them.

Of course sections of the Church in Reich's satelite countries were on the other hand often sincerely eager to cooperate with Nazis (like the priests Joseph Tiso in Slovakia and Miroslav Filipović-Majstorović in Croatia, none of whom were excommunicated either).

On Hitler's faith, what we can say with some certainty is that despite gradually souring attitude towards both Protestantism and Catholicism he never crossed the line to either atheism or paganism, and never spoke ill of Jesus, even in private (those are the conclusions reached by Richard Steigmann-Gall in The Holy Reich: Nazi conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945).
Last edited by Orestes on 13 Nov 2015 09:14, edited 1 time in total.
#14618476
Heinie wrote:From where does this quote come? It reads like a Church that does not want competition for the minds of children.


From an encyclical the then-current Pope wrote at the time where Mussolini smashed Italy's Catholic Action.
#14618480
KlassWar wrote:From an encyclical the then-current Pope wrote at the time where Mussolini smashed Italy's Catholic Action.

That would be an entirely different context to the Third Reich, Italy being a Catholic country with the Fascist government having its own Concordat with the Holy See.
#14618510
Heinie wrote:Hitler was not excommunicated.


This is true. But excommunication is limited to forcing people out of the church and from communion. If someone already isn't taking communion, or already away from the church, it's a useless tool. For instance, if you said that you were a Bishop that announced that you were the reincarnation of John the Baptist, you would be excommunicated as you were not following the church's stance. If I, who was baptized, said that I was John the Baptist, it wouldn't matter. I would have already excommunicated myself from the church.

The church did accuse Hitler of being a pagan that was leading people away from Christ. And even, internally at the time, of being Satan himself: And the Vatican was trying to preform an exorcism of Hitler to get rid of Satan's power over the Nazis:

Daily Mail, though other sources confirm it, wrote:Father Gabriele Amorth who is Pope Benedict XVI's 'caster out of demons' made his comments during an interview with Vatican Radio.

Father Amorth said: "Of course the Devil exists and he can not only possess a single person but also groups and entire populations.

"I am convinced that the Nazis were all possessed. All you have to do is think about what Hitler - and Stalin did. Almost certainly they were possessed by the Devil.

"You can tell by their behaviour and their actions, from the horrors they committed and the atrocities that were committed on their orders. That's why we need to defend society from demons."

According to secret Vatican documents recently released wartime pontiff Pope Pius XII attempted a "long distance" exorcism of Hitler which failed to have any effect.


Which is hardly a ringing endorsement of the Vatican's faith in Hitler.

Heinie wrote:It reads like a Church that does not want competition for the minds of children.


That's certainly a part of it. The Church didn't really take action until its political parties and schools were shut down in Germany. I'm in no way implying that the Church is great. Hell, as I've qualified many times, it liked the fascists in Spain and Ireland. It just wasn't behind Hitler.

Heinie wrote:Hitler was a Catholic; this is no mere allegation.


You can say that all you want. It's pretty clear that the Catholic Church didn't think so though.

Heinie wrote:That would be an entirely different context to the Third Reich, Italy being a Catholic country with the Fascist government having its own Concordat with the Holy See.


The events in Italy moved the Vatican to go against fascism as a whole (though again, this did not stop cuddling in Spain and Ireland later on). But if you want the Nazis in particular, you want this document. I've edited it for brevity as there's a lot of talk about Jesus and whatnot. Then I highlighted. But the actual text is linked twice, so if I did a shit job:

Pope Pius XI in 1927 wrote:8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.

9. Beware, Venerable Brethren, of that growing abuse, in speech as in writing, of the name of God as though it were a meaningless label, to be affixed to any creation, more or less arbitrary, of human speculation. Use your influence on the Faithful, that they refuse to yield to this aberration. Our God is the Personal God, supernatural, omnipotent, infinitely perfect, one in the Trinity of Persons, tri-personal in the unity of divine essence, the Creator of all existence. Lord, King and ultimate Consummator of the history of the world, who will not, and cannot, tolerate a rival God by His side.

...

11. None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket" (Isaiah xI, 15).

12. The Bishops of the Church of Christ, "ordained in the things that appertain to God (Heb. v, 1) must watch that pernicious errors of this sort, and consequent practices more pernicious still, shall not gain a footing among their flock. It is part of their sacred obligations to do whatever is in their power to enforce respect for, and obedience to, the commandments of God, as these are the necessary foundation of all private life and public morality; to see that the rights of His Divine Majesty, His name and His word be not profaned; to put a stop to the blasphemies, which, in words and pictures, are multiplying like the sands of the desert; to encounter the obstinacy and provocations of those who deny, despise and hate God, by the never-failing reparatory prayers of the Faithful, hourly rising like incense to the All-Highest and staying His vengeance.

13. We thank you, Venerable Brethren, your priests and Faithful, who have persisted in their Christian duty and in the defense of God's rights in the teeth of an aggressive paganism. Our gratitude, warmer still and admiring, goes out to those who, in fulfillment of their duty, have been deemed worthy of sacrifice and suffering for the love of God.
...
18. Faith in Christ cannot maintain itself pure and unalloyed without the support of faith in the Church, "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. iii. 15); for Christ Himself, God eternally blessed, raised this pillar of the Faith. His command to hear the Church (Matt. xviii. 15), to welcome in the words and commands of the Church His own words and His own commands (Luke x. 16), is addressed to all men, of all times and of all countries. The Church founded by the Redeemer is one, the same for all races and all nations. Beneath her dome, as beneath the vault of heaven, there is but one country for all nations and tongues; there is room for the development of every quality, advantage, task and vocation which God the Creator and Savior has allotted to individuals as well as to ethnical communities. The Church's maternal heart is big enough to see in the God-appointed development of individual characteristics and gifts, more than a mere danger of divergency. She rejoices at the spiritual superiorities among individuals and nations. In their successes she sees with maternal joy and pride fruits of education and progress, which she can only bless and encourage, whenever she can conscientiously do so. But she also knows that to this freedom limits have been set by the majesty of the divine command, which founded that Church one and indivisible. Whoever tampers with that unity and that indivisibility wrenches from the Spouse of Christ one of the diadems with which God Himself crowned her; he subjects a divine structure, which stands on eternal foundations, to criticism and transformation by architects whom the Father of Heaven never authorized to interfere.
..
21. In your country, Venerable Brethren, voices are swelling into a chorus urging people to leave the Church, and among the leaders there is more than one whose official position is intended to create the impression that this infidelity to Christ the King constitutes a signal and meritorious act of loyalty to the modern State. Secret and open measures of intimidation, the threat of economic and civic disabilities, bear on the loyalty of certain classes of Catholic functionaries, a pressure which violates every human right and dignity. Our wholehearted paternal sympathy goes out to those who must pay so dearly for their loyalty to Christ and the Church; but directly the highest interests are at stake, with the alternative of spiritual loss, there is but one alternative left, that of heroism. If the oppressor offers one the Judas bargain of apostasy he can only, at the cost of every worldly sacrifice, answer with Our Lord: "Begone, Satan! For it is written: The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and Him only shalt thou serve" (Matt. iv. 10). And turning to the Church, he shall say: "Thou, my mother since my infancy, the solace of my life and advocate at my death, may my tongue cleave to my palate if, yielding to worldly promises or threats, I betray the vows of my baptism." As to those who imagine that they can reconcile exterior infidelity to one and the same Church, let them hear Our Lord's warning: - "He that shall deny me before men shall be denied before the angels of God" (Luke xii. 9).

...

23. You will need to watch carefully, Venerable Brethren, that religious fundamental concepts be not emptied of their content and distorted to profane use. "Revelation" in its Christian sense, means the word of God addressed to man. The use of this word for the "suggestions" of race and blood, for the irradiations of a people's history, is mere equivocation. False coins of this sort do not deserve Christian currency....

...
28. "Grace," in a wide sense, may stand for any of the Creator's gifts to His creature; but in its Christian designation, it means all the supernatural tokens of God's love; God's intervention which raises man to that intimate communion of life with Himself, called by the Gospel "adoption of the children of God." "Behold what manner of charity the Father hath bestowed on us, that we should be called and should be the sons of God" (1 John iii. 1). To discard this gratuitous and free elevation in the name of a so-called German type amounts to repudiating openly a fundamental truth of Christianity. It would be an abuse of our religious vocabulary to place on the same level supernatural grace and natural gifts. Pastors and guardians of the people of God will do well to resist this plunder of sacred things and this confusion of ideas.

...
34. No one would think of preventing young Germans establishing a true ethnical community in a noble love of freedom and loyalty to their country. What We object to is the voluntary and systematic antagonism raised between national education and religious duty. That is why we tell the young: Sing your hymns to freedom, but do not forget the freedom of the children of God. Do not drag the nobility of that freedom in the mud of sin and sensuality. He who sings hymns of loyalty to this terrestrial country should not, for that reason, become unfaithful to God and His Church, or a deserter and traitor to His heavenly country. You are often told about heroic greatness, in lying opposition to evangelical humility and patience. Why conceal the fact that there are heroisms in moral life? That the preservation of baptismal innocence is an act of heroism which deserves credit? You are often told about the human deficiencies which mar the history of the Church: why ignore the exploits which fill her history, the saints she begot, the blessing that came upon Western civilization from the union between that Church and your people? You are told about sports. Indulged in with moderation and within limits, physical education is a boon for youth. But so much time is now devoted to sporting activities, that the harmonious development of body and mind is disregarded, that duties to one's family, and the observation of the Lord's Day are neglected. With an indifference bordering on contempt the day of the Lord is divested of its sacred character, against the best of German traditions. But We expect the Catholic youth, in the more favorable organizations of the State, to uphold its right to a Christian sanctification of the Sunday, not to exercise the body at the expense of the immortal soul, not to be overcome by evil, but to aim at the triumph of good over evil (Rom. xii. 21) as its highest achievement will be the gaining of the crown in the stadium of eternal life (1 Cor. ix. 24).

43. He who searches the hearts and reins (Psalm vii. 10) is Our witness that We have no greater desire than to see in Germany the restoration of a true peace between Church and State. But if, without any fault of Ours, this peace is not to come, then the Church of God will defend her rights and her freedom in the name of the Almighty whose arm has not shortened. Trusting in Him, "We cease not to pray and to beg" (Col. i. 9) for you, children of the Church, that the days of tribulation may end and that you may be found faithful in the day of judgment; for the persecutors and oppressors, that the Father of light and mercy may enlighten them as He enlightened Saul on the road of Damascus. With this prayer in Our heart and on Our lips We grant to you, as a pledge of Divine help, as a support in your difficult resolutions, as a comfort in the struggle, as a consolation in all trials, to You, Bishops and Pastors of the Faithful, priests, Religious, lay apostles of Catholic Action, to all your diocesans, and specially to the sick and the prisoners, in paternal love, Our Apostolic Benediction.


So the Nazis publicly denounced the Nazis. They thought Hitler was controlled by Satan. They denounced the ideology of fascism at the time.

Again, this is not saying the Church didn't have fascist sympathies later, or that they weren't mostly concerned about their political power, but this hardly can be turned into Hitler being some model Catholic or something. That's all Black Legend garbage.
#14618523
Heinie wrote:That would be an entirely different context to the Third Reich.


What's the difference? Sure, Germany wasn't a catholic-majority country, but the Nazis shut down the catholic parties, schools and mass organizations just like Mussolini, and I can't reckon the Church liked it any better.
#14618544
The Immortal Goon wrote:but this hardly can be turned into Hitler being some model Catholic or something.
No one's arguing that he was a model Catholic. Reagan was no model Christian, his church attendance or lack of it was questioned (by Democrats) on more than one occasion. But at least Hitler never brought in no fault divorce like Reagan.
#14618549
Reagan was a showman. Probably the worst modern president of the United States. While he was drooling on himself and shitting his pants between camera ops, Dick Cheney and Donny Rumsfeld were running the country into the ground and laying the groundwork for a Middle Eastern Empire that only started to bare fruit after the old CIA Director that was half way competent was out of the way and the Democrats were too marred by accusations of enjoying oral sex to get into office for a while.

Sure, we have crazy people all over the place because Ronnie Reagan shut down the mental health system, and the middle class is on its knees because of his economic policies, and we're entangled in a lot of stupid wars that his puppet masters wanted, but that guy sure liked jelly beans! Let's clap like chimpanzees about how well an actor can recite lines!
#14618625
The Immortal Goon wrote:... They denounced the ideology of fascism at the time. ...

I'm sorry but your post was too long and fragmented for me to fully address everything you wrote. I do not read the Daily Mail and I do not trust was passes for journalism in its pages. I am sure of this, however, the Catholic Church did not denounce Nazism right up to Hitler's suicide in Berlin in 1945. Not one single Catholic chaplain in the Wehrmacht spoke against the murder of Jews, Polish Catholic priests, Soviet prisoners, and others who were shot dead by their flock. Some of these chaplains even became bishops in the Bundesrepublik after WWII.
#14618626
The Immortal Goon wrote:Reagan was a showman. Probably the worst modern president of the United States. While he was drooling on himself and shitting his pants between camera ops, Dick Cheney and Donny Rumsfeld were running the country into the ground and laying the groundwork for a Middle Eastern Empire that only started to bare fruit after the old CIA Director that was half way competent was out of the way and the Democrats were too marred by accusations of enjoying oral sex to get into office for a while.

Sure, we have crazy people all over the place because Ronnie Reagan shut down the mental health system, and the middle class is on its knees because of his economic policies, and we're entangled in a lot of stupid wars that his puppet masters wanted, but that guy sure liked jelly beans! Let's clap like chimpanzees about how well an actor can recite lines!


And we all Said: "Amen."

Image

Zam
#14618630
KlassWar wrote:
What's the difference? Sure, Germany wasn't a catholic-majority country, but the Nazis shut down the catholic parties, schools and mass organizations just like Mussolini, and I can't reckon the Church liked it any better.

The Catholic Church, as you indicated, in Italy was much stronger than the Catholic Church ever was in the Third Reich and felt itself to be at a disadvantage and under increasing threat. The National Catholic Center Party chose to support Hitler for Chancellor and dissolved itself. It was not banned like other parties although it most likely would have been shortly. Like Italy, the Third Reich also had a Concordat with the Holy See, tailored to circumstances in Germany, lending moral support to the Nazis. "At a time when the heads of the major nations in the world faced the new Germany with cool reserve and considerable suspicion, the Catholic Church, the greatest moral power on earth, through the Concordat expressed its confidence in the new German government. This was a deed of immeasurable significance for the reputation of the new government abroad." (Cardinal Faulhaber, Archbishop of Munich, 1937) The Concordat was never honored by the state and has been characterized as a surrender to the Nazis. At best, it delayed by some years the eventual Catholic loss of control over schools, politics, and the press.
#14618631
Blackjack said: Whereas, Carter was a Baptist. Think Westboro Baptist Church--God hates fags, etc.


Can't let you get away with this. Utter and complete bullshit. Perhaps you would like to practice your trolling. You are really bad at it.

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