[wat0n]

What makes you think that?

As every nation has its base and superstructural quirks, culture, and history, how socialism is implemented will be different to reflect that.

The USSR is not the default option.

So the USSR was poor due to slavic culture?

Or maybe we'll now hear some genetic explanations?

[Pants-of-dog]

If the argument is that the Russians were bad because of communism, then the implication is that they are no longer oppressive or bad now that they are capitalist.

Is that what we observe?

[wat0n]

If the argument is that the Russians were bad because of communism, then the implication is that they are no longer oppressive or bad now that they are capitalist.

Is that what we observe?

Certainly not.

OTOH Russia isn't a liberal democracy with relatively free markets either.

[late]

The moment you are saying the US is developed, you accept it is rather civilized.

Economic development makes things possible, it doesn't make them happen. One look at the Saudi will tell you that..


[url]By RCraig09 - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.p ... d=72213595[/url]

What we have is insane, and it's getting worse....

[wat0n]

Economic development makes things possible, it doesn't make them happen. One look at the Saudi will tell you that..


[url]By RCraig09 - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.p ... d=72213595[/url]

What we have is insane, and it's getting worse....

So Saudi Arabia and the other Islamic monarchies don't count as civilized either?

[late]

So Saudi Arabia and the other Islamic monarchies don't count as civilized either?

Whataboutism... is trying to change the subject.

Since you know you've lost, it's what you got.

It's not enough.

[wat0n]

Whataboutism... is trying to change the subject.

Since you know you've lost, it's what you got.

It's not enough.

Well, you made a ridiculous comparison with Vietnam war gun deaths and it was shown to be fallacious.

After, you implied the US is uncivilized due to its homicide rates yet seemingly refused to accept the implication most of Latin America, which deals with substantially greater rates, isn't.

Then you tried to claim Costa Rica is "very safe" even though it has, and has had every year on record, a greater gun homicide rate than the US.

Now you say the US is special because it's the developed country with the highest gun homicide rate, implying it should be counted as civilized. Or maybe it's Schrödinger's civility, being civilized and uncivilized at the same time.

Now you refuse to say rich Islamic oil producers are uncivilized, even though you evidently implied so.

Let me guess: Only the US can be counted as "uncivilized" because racism, right?

[ingliz]

due to slavic culture?

No.

Cultural practices, institutions, traditions, and ways of life are all combined, juxtaposed, and linked within any country. The old and new together. For good and bad.

Take America, for instance, and its obsession with guns.

[wat0n]

No.

Cultural practices, institutions, traditions, and ways of life are all combined, juxtaposed, and linked within any country. The old and new together. For good and bad.

Take America, for instance, and its obsession with guns.

This doesn't seem to have been applicable to the West itself, and also to much of East Asia. Why?

What's special about Russia?

[late]

Now you say the US is special because it's the developed country with the highest gun homicide rate, implying it should be counted as civilized. Or maybe it's Schrödinger's civility, being civilized and uncivilized at the same time.

Allowing the leading cause of death among children to be the result of guns isn't just uncivilised, it's sociopathic.

What makes it worse is that the entire intellectual edifice among gun nuts is lies and BS.

[wat0n]

Allowing the leading cause of death among children to be the result of guns isn't just uncivilised, it's sociopathic.

What makes it worse is that the entire intellectual edifice among gun nuts is lies and BS.

What that means though is that Americans need to learn to store guns properly. This is not the case in other developed countries with a high prevalence of guns (e.g. Switzerland). I don't think this means the US is uncivilized though.

[ingliz]

This doesn't seem to have been applicable to the West

Don't be daft.

"The old and new together. For good and bad."

The UK has the only parliament with reserved places for clerics - aside from Iran; the monarch owns the seabed, out to 12 nautical miles from the shore, I could go on.

[wat0n]

Don't be daft.

"The old and new together. For good and bad."

The UK has the only parliament with reserved places for clerics - aside from Iran; the monarch owns the seabed, out to 12 nautical miles from the shore, I could go on.

But this hasn't translated into lack of economic development.

So what's your explanation for the state of Russia? Even in the best of Soviet times, it was poorer than its Western peers.

[ingliz]

poorer

The Soviets didn't do that badly. They went from peasant backwater to arguably winning the space race in 70 years.

[wat0n]

The Soviets didn't do that badly. They went from peasant backwater to arguably winning the space race in 70 years.

But at the cost of the quality of life of the bulk of the population.

[late]

This is not the case in other developed countries with a high prevalence of guns (e.g. Switzerland).

You've never been to Switzerland.

Every gun nut tries that one eventually. It's idiocy. You don't screw around in Switzerland, they come down on you like a ton of bricks. Americans would never accept Swiss discipline, and without that discipline, you've got Americans...

[ingliz]

But at the cost of the quality of life of the bulk of the population.

I think you will find that cost was inevitable. A protracted low-level civil conflict (1919-32), a World War (1941-45), and a Cold War (1945-present) all posed existential threats that had to be countered.

[late]

The Soviets didn't do that badly. They went from peasant backwater to arguably winning the space race in 70 years.

They lost the Space Race, google up an image of the capsule they designed to go to the Moon. It looks like something Jules Verne designed. Interesting sidenote, in the 80s I did small projects. At one point I was calling a lot of people in DC advocating for working with the Russians. Our space station had crashed in Australia... Eventually that is exactly what we did. I don't know how much influence I had, there is always a lot going on beneath the surface. But I tried.

The USSR bureaucracy was able to handle a simple economy. But as it matured, things got a lot more complicated. When there was an economic crisis, millions of decisions had to be made. Here businesses would do what they had to do, or file bankruptcy. In Russia, things went wrong, and the economy eventually collapsed. The real reason it lasted as long as it did was that it had a large underground economy...

[wat0n]

You've never been to Switzerland.

Every gun nut tries that one eventually. It's idiocy. You don't screw around in Switzerland, they come down on you like a ton of bricks. Americans would never accept Swiss discipline, and without that discipline, you've got Americans...

Maybe, I don't know to be honest - as you guessed, I haven't been to Switzerland to compare. I have been to Israel though and I agree people over there are very disciplined.

But then, if Americans are going to keep their guns, shouldn't at least schools teach how to use them, how to store them and remind students of what they can do (with lots and lots of brutal, gory real world images or by shooting animal meat with pump guns)? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems gun education is left to families and maybe it should actually be part of the curriculum.

Ideally, there would also be gun licensing (you need a driver's license but not a gun license?), the buyer would have the burden of proving mental fitness (AKA you need a doctor's "prescription") and no criminal history, on top of the current background checks compulsorily performed by sellers.

I think you will find that cost was inevitable. A protracted low-level civil conflict (1919-32), a World War (1941-45), and a Cold War (1945-present) all posed existential threats that had to be countered.

I agree with the pre-1945 analysis, but during the Cold War? That is far more questionable. The US had to deal with a similar threat by the USSR but US quality of life/living standards eventually clearly surpassed that in the USSR.

[late]

Maybe, I don't know to be honest - as you guessed, I haven't been to Switzerland to compare. I have been to Israel though and I agree people over there are very disciplined.

But then, if Americans are going to keep their guns, shouldn't at least schools teach how to use them, how to store them and remind students of what they can do (with lots and lots of brutal, gory real world images or by shooting animal meat with pump guns)? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems gun education is left to families and maybe it should actually be part of the curriculum.

Ideally, there would also be gun licensing (you need a driver's license but not a gun license?), the buyer would have the burden of proving mental fitness (AKA you need a doctor's "prescription") and no criminal history, on top of the current background checks compulsorily performed by sellers.

The first step is to (again) ban assault weapons. There needs to be other regs, like limits on the size of clips. Republicans also need to stop screwing over ATF, that's lunacy.

As to the rest, we need things like background checks.

Schools should have nothing to do with guns. Actually, I favor the European approach of using education money for education (as opposed to transportation and sports, which eat up too much of the budget).