[ingliz]

1,002.4 soldiers killed by small arms fire per 100k deployed.

You are forgetting to include the numbers for noncombat and friendly fire deaths in your calculations.

My number for deployed is 549,500

Number killed: 16,899

Number killed by enemy action: 10,984

Number killed by small arms: 3,493

Number of deaths per 100k deployed in 1968: 636

[wat0n]

Why are you having so much trouble calculating a simple rate, @late?

You do have a point though, over half of all gun deaths in the US are suicide. Suicide was far, far less common among soldiers deployed in Vietnam, despite the nature of that war in specific, which is indeed interesting. But that doesn't have that much to do with guns, even if they are easily the most efficient way to kill yourself.

You are forgetting to include the numbers for noncombat and friendly fire deaths in your calculations.

My number for deployed is 549,500

Number killed: 16,899

Number killed by enemy action: 10,984

Number killed by small arms: 3,493

Number of deaths per 100k deployed: 636

From what I've been able to find, only 398 soldiers died from small arms friendly fire throughout the war. As I said, most friendly fire deaths seem to be due to the use of heavy arms, which makes sense if anything.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

But 16,899 is the total number killed by all methods, so it needs to be reduced by 35% before you calculate the number killed by small arms.

And just a thought...

If we are calculating the rate, why not use 27 million as the denominator, the number eligible for the draft?

[wat0n]

@wat0n

But 16,899 is the total number killed by all methods, so it needs to be reduced by 35% before you calculate the number killed by small arms.

Why does it need to be reduced by 35%? The figure for those killed by small arms you initially posted (18,518) is around 31.8% of all deaths (including friendly fire incidents, suicide, etc) in the war (58,220).

If you want to take friendly fire incidents out, be my guest, but then you would need to take all accidental gun homicides from the overall US figures for recent years as well (which is around 2% of the total).

And just a thought...

If we are calculating the rate, why not use 27 million as the denominator, the number eligible for the draft?

Because they weren't deployed?

[ingliz]

18,518

That is made up of all small arms deaths recorded in the war.

The 16,899 number is all deaths recorded in 1968, including those killed by heavy weaponry in friendly fire incidents.

Because they weren't deployed?

You could make the same argument when you use 333 million as the denominator in US gun deaths.

[Pants-of-dog]

I think we can safely conclude that the comparison is too vague to be useful, since the final ratio depends on how you come up with the numbers for each.

[wat0n]

That is made up of all small arms deaths recorded in the war.

The 16,899 number is all deaths recorded in 1968, including those killed by heavy weaponry in friendly fire incidents.

Sure, which is why I applied the percentage you cited (31.8%) to the figure.

So, it's 16,899*.318 = 5,374 very crudely estimated small firearm deaths in 1968

There were some 536,100 soldiers deployed so the rate per 100k is 5,374/5.361 = 1,002.4.

Or much faster, 0.381*(16,899/5.631) = 1,002.4 per 100k soldiers.

You could make the same argument when you use 333 million as the denominator in US gun deaths.

What do you mean? Those are exactly the people present in US territory. The 332 million figure doesn't consider American expats, for example. Why would it? Those dying abroad are not dying in the US.

The soldiers deployed in the Vietnam war are those American soldiers present there during the war by definition. It also doesn't consider reservists, military age males or soldiers deployed outside the theater of operations. Why would it? They aren't dying in the war.

[late]

I think we can safely conclude that the comparison is too vague to be useful, since the final ratio depends on how you come up with the numbers for each.

Somebody is avoiding the obvious..

[ingliz]

So, it's 16,899*.318 = 5,374 very crudely estimated small firearm deaths in 1968

Your number is wrong.

35% were classed as non-combat or friendly fire incidents.

[wat0n]

Your number is wrong.

35% were classed as non-combat or friendly fire incidents.

Not for small arms deaths

[ingliz]

@wat0n

16,899 is not the number to calculate how many were small arms deaths in 1968.

10,984 is.

Of which 3,493 were.

[wat0n]

@ingliz firstly, you don't know what the number of small arms deaths was in 1968. You are assuming it was 31.8% of all deaths, combat or not and due to friendly fire or not, as you are assuming the percentage of small arms deaths over the total number of deaths in 1968 was the same as that for the war as a whole. I don't think we know that, but it's important to remember we're making an assumption here.

Secondly, friendly fire deaths count as KIA:

Killed in Action (KIA): This term wil be used to describe battle or hostile casualties or those who are killed outright in the presence of the enemy or die of wounds or other injuries before reaching any medical treatment facility. This provides an objective basis for distinction between “Killed Action” and “Died of Wounds” cases as it is often impracticable to determine whether deaths in combat were or were not instantaneous. Personnel mistakenly or accidentally killed by friendly fire in the presence of the enemy and personnel found dead on the battlefield will be considered “Killed in Action.” In the latter cases, the date of death will be determined locally from the available evidence, or if such evidence is not available, the date of death will be the date the remains were found by military personnel. Personnel killed in an aircraft crash en route to or returning from a combat mission will be considered “Killed in Action” provided that the occurrence was directly related to hostile action or the presence of the enemy was a contributing factor. The term “Killed in Action” without the statement “body not recovered” (BNR) indicates the body was recovered.

Thirdly, friendly fire incidents using small arms killed 398 soldiers throughout the war according to subsequent research:

In previous wars, friendly fire incidents were much more frequent. An Army captain who researched small-arms mishaps in Vietnam found that 398 soldiers were killed due to fratricidal or self-inflicted bloodshed. During World War II, tens of thousands were killed by their fellow soldiers. And by some estimates, 75,000 French soldiers alone were killed by their own troops in the First World War.

As such, it doesn't make much of a difference if they are removed or not. If they are, accidental gun homicides should be removed from the US figures too, which would decrease the total number of gun homicides by around 2% (not a big difference).

Hence the rate of 1,002.4 killed due to small arms fire per 100k soldiers deployed in 1968 is not a completely insane estimate, but relies on the assumption that the share of deaths in 1968 due to small arms fire was the same as the share for the whole war.

And the overall rate of 682 killed by small arms fire per 100k soldiers deployed is not insane either.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

Depending on who you ask and the methodology used...

Around 30–35% of American deaths in the war were non-combat or friendly fire deaths.

— Wikipedia, Vietnam War casualties

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Depending on who you ask and the methodology used...

Around 30–35% of American deaths in the war were non-combat or friendly fire deaths.

— Wikipedia, Vietnam War casualties

Did you read Wiki's source? The 31.8% of soldiers killed by small arms does not include friendly fire:

Cause Of Casualty Hostile & Non-hostile (Percentage):

Gun shot or small arms fire ---- 31.8
Drowning and burns ---------- 3.0
Misadventure (Friendly fire) -- 2.3
Vehicle crashes ------------ 2.0
Multiple frag wounds grenades, mines, bombs, booby traps -- 27.4
Aircraft crashes ---------- 14.7
Illness, also malaria, hepatitis, heart attack, stroke -- 1.6
Arty or rocket fire -------- 8.4
Suicide ---------------- 0.7
Accidental self-destruction, intentional homicide, accidental
homicide, other accidents. -- 5.8
Other, unknown, not reported -- 2.0
Data compiled William F. Abbott from figures obtained shortly after the construction of the Vietnam War Memorial

That makes things a lot easier, luckily enough. The 18,518 killed by small arms during the war were killed by enemy forces, not by suicide, accidents, friendly fire, intentional homicides, etc. Note friendly fire itself was only 2.3% of all deaths in the war according to this source at least.

So, the death rate by small arms fire by the enemy during the war was 712.23 per 100k soldiers deployed.

This would need to be compared with the non-accidental gun homicide rate for 2021.

[Pants-of-dog]

The only year when Chile might have had a gun homicide rate comparable to the USA would be 1973.

[wat0n]

The only year when Chile might have had a gun homicide rate comparable to the USA would be 1973.

Are you finally going to share the official Chilean gun homicide statistics?

[late]

@wat0n

Depending on who you ask and the methodology used...

Around 30–35% of American deaths in the war were non-combat or friendly fire deaths.

— Wikipedia, Vietnam War casualties

There used to be a lot of friendly fire deaths. It was even worse in WW2, and prob worse than that in WW1.

Kids, you are using numbers as a distraction. You want to escape the horror. Which is understandable, but it's time to live with that horror. Because that's the country you live in, a country that's gone quite mad.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

In Vietnam, 16,899 men were killed in every way possible in 1968.

So you strip out everything that isn't small arms fire, including non-combat and friendly fire deaths.

[ingliz]

@late

Not being American, I don't.

As to the thread, what does it matter?

Nothing is going to change.

Whatever we say, America will continue killing brown people and each other.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

In Vietnam, 16,899 men were killed in every way possible in 1968.

So you strip out everything that isn't small arms fire, including non-combat and friendly fire deaths.

Sure. Hence the 5,373 or so (estimated) deaths.