Has science developed its own dogma/orthodoxy? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14338985
[youtube]JKHUaNAxsTg[/youtube]

Sheldrake definitely holds some.. unorthodox and perhaps strange views such as the idea that telepathy may be a real physical phenomena etc and he has been lambasted for it. However, others such as Daniel Shechtman have been derided for their views before and vindicated.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/audi ... -schectman

Currently, in my opinion, the movement to make science into a religion of sorts with persons like deepak chopra, etc proclaiming views in which quantum physics and entanglement is a real world macroscopic phenomena which can explain things like telepathy, the departure of the soul from the body, etc is provoking a backlash from most scientists as an irrational appeal to mysticism, etc. Setting aside questions about the truth or validity of these claims and religious arguments that rail against science etc, has science developed its own orthodoxy which possibly inhibits the exploration of certain experiences, ideas, etc simply because they are strange or bizarre?
#14339003
Try reading "the presence of the past". I read it and just he's a kooky crank. He's really bug fk crazy. he just plods alongin his reasonable tone but have but the book is just insane.

People find typing on querty keyboards easier because million of other humans have typed on them before building up a morphic resonance.

Is this the theory of a sane man?
#14339005
I've read Morphic Resonance, The Presence of the Past, and Science Set Free. His theory of morphic resonance may sound "kooky" or "insane" to you, but he's proposed and performed numerous experiments to test his theory, and produced a number of interesting results. Oh well. I was hoping you'd have an actual argument. Instead, everyone I've seen who opposes his theory just dismisses it as "mystical" or "weird." Disappointing.
#14339065
I've briefly watched his TED interview before, so I can't say I am familiar with this person too much before now, but despite the degrees he possesses, he has a fundamental misconception of what science is, and some of the things he says in this video misrepresent the purpose and boundaries of modern science. I am going to comment on his "10 dogmas of science" and illustrate the nature of his misconception of the purpose of science, his lack of understanding of the scientific method, and inability to separate a personal (and spiritual) belief from observable reality.

~ 00:30 he states that science has developed a fundamental basis for the understanding of the world and has become a belief system. This is partly true and partly false. While we are understanding more and more about psychology, and we understand much about chemistry, physics, and mathematics, there is still a lot we don't know about the universe which could radically change our thinking: astronomy, cosmology, quantum physics, etc. You can put to the test a religious claim about the material universe, like "the world is less than 10,000 years old" or "humans did not evolve from lower primates" but it is fundamentally impossible to use science to disprove the concept of a god or gods, or afterlife, or soul, or other intangible spiritual beliefs. People who think that science has become a belief system, or who say things like "science's goal is to discredit and replace religion" do not understand what science is and have no idea what they are talking about.

~ 01:00 he says that science has a world view which restricts free inquiry. This is a blatant lie, and I wouldn't say that he's mistaken or just not understanding terms properly: he is deliberately saying something absolutely false. Peer-reviewed experiments and studies into the supernatural, the para-psychological, and scientific oddities happen and even make headlines. There was a study within a few years ago concerning tachyon particles apparently exceeding the speed of light; a study within that same time frame which concerned apparent arsenic-based lifeforms in some isolated aquatic environment; and also studies on telepathic abilities in humans. The tachyon experiment utilized the same equipment and the results which apparently exceeded the speed of light could not be replicated, thus leading to the conclusion, after further study, that it was the result of equipment miscalibration/miscalculation. The arsenic-based life study was misrepresented, and studies into telepathy have not yet produced evidence of telepathic abilities. Many of these claims initially suggested positive results and prompted a lot of scrutiny. If they had held up, there wasn't an evil conspiracy of scientists ready to suppress the results. None of the studied panned out.

~ 02:25 he states that science and most scientists think of humans and life as merely living machines, robots, with "genetically programmed computers" for brains. Ask virtually any doctor, biochemist, biologist, etc, and they'll tell you that life, and humans, are essentially like living machines. We possess a central nervous system, we require maintenance, and no one can dispute that we possess genetic programming. But, scientists do not claim or even suggest that humans and living beings are machines or should be treated like machines.

~ 02:50 he says that scientists are trying to establish the idea that consciousness is an illusion. Take one single psychology class: this is not an idea promoted by modern science or psychology. There are extreme behaviorists (behaviorism is not very popular as a singular school of psychology because it is in opposition to cognitive psychology) and psychologists more prone to leaning towards lack of "free will" and towards determinism, but pretty much every single psychologist and neuropsychologist today accepts the idea of consciousness, cognitive psychology, and intelligent thought.

~ 03:08 "Dogma [of science] 3: the laws of nature are the same now as they were at the time of the big bang, and they will be the same forever; not just the laws, but the constants of nature are fixed..." He ends up using the speed of light as an example of a constant that appears to show change over time. This is not true: this is a result of our ability to improve our methods of measurements and calculations of the speed of the light.

~ 3:20 "Dogma [of science] 4: the total amount of matter and energy is always the same"

~ 3:40 he says that science lacks a dogma of providing "purpose" to existence or evolution. This is not the purpose of science. Science cannot form the foundation of spiritual beliefs or promote spiritual and philosophical beliefs. Evolution is not linear; science cannot provide purpose to evolution because evolution is not a linear process. The question of why we exist, and why there is even existence at all, is not just "what was the reason for the big bang", but philosophical and spiritual questions we have been asking ourselves since the dawn of time, of which the latter, more intangible questions are ones science cannot fundamentally ask or answer because science deals with reality, not the spiritual.

~ 3:50 "Dogma [of science] 6: biological heredity is material..." Yes, it is.

~ 04:10 "Memories are stored [entirely] in your brain..." He has some interesting ideas like "morphic resonance" which concerns collective memory and psychic phenomena, alternate medicine, and also psychic phenomena alone (unattached to his idea of morphic resonance). The issue is that with collective memory, citing examples like some animals being trained in a certain behavior causing other animals nearby to sometimes exhibit that same behavior and then thinking it has something to do with collective memory or psychic behavior is massively stupid: animals are capable of observing and mimicking behavior, and some animals can communicate in ways we can't yet decipher; worker bees can move in patterns, like dancing, which can convey a vast amount of information, including spatial data to tell other worker bees exactly where to travel within miles (truly remarkable).

~ 04:20 "Dogma [of science] 8: Your mind is inside your head; all your consciousness is the activity of your brain..."

~ 04:30 "Dogma [of science] 9: Psychic phenomena is impossible..." I'm open to the concept of matter and energy within a biological system being capable, somehow, of affecting matter and energy at a distance, but to date, no studies or experiments have produced good results to provide any evidence for such a belief.

~ 05:00 his final dogma 10 consists of him being upset at the idea that modern medicine is dominant above alternate medicine. Things like herbal medicine, faith healing, acupuncture, meditation, and so on can produce psychosomatic results not unlike biofeedback manipulation. This does not mean alternate medicine is a replacement for surgery, new organs, blood transfusion, gene therapy, life-saving/life-improving medication, and so on.

This man's problem is he does not understand what science is. Science does not and cannot measure the spiritual; science can test material claims made by spiritual believers, but it cannot test an immaterial, intangible spiritual belief. Science is open to change, but there has to be evidence, verifiable proof, and replicable results. Anyone who takes even a basic science course will most likely be familiar with the idea of the scientific method, the kind of methodology used, and the idea of a peer-review process. Simply wanting to believe in something is not sufficient evidence. A study that suggests modern humans developed language skills 10,000 years earlier than previously believed will be less controversial than a study that suggests humans have psychic abilities. This is not due to a scientific conspiracy or a belief system of dogma and orthodoxy: the latter claim would throw countless scientific developments, assumptions, studies, experiments, fields of science themselves, out the window. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If concrete evidence were provided, much as Einstein's theory of relativity changed our understanding of science, and the results could be replicated, and the results were fully publicized, there would be no conspiracy of scientists suppressing it in the name of dogma and orthodoxy; claims of the supernatural and para-psychology do not, as yet, provide sufficient evidence of the claims made.

It's great that Sheldrake believes in a lot of things, like collective memory, psychic abilities, and so on; lots of people all over the world believe in even stranger things and some even think the world is only less than 10,000 years old. The problem is that people like Sheldrake do not provide sufficient evidence for any of these pseudo-scientific claims, and yet demand they be considered legitimate science, and complain about them being classified as pseudo-science. Scientists would be only too happy to discover actual, real evidence of the supernatural or the para-psychological: instant Nobel prizes, going down in the scientific history books for all time, virtual guarantee of massive grants to pursue additional research, book opportunities, employment among the finest institutions of education and research, and so on. The mere existence of scientists like Richard Dawkins who use principles of science to try and disprove spiritual concepts does not mean that the mechanisms of science are the same.

This is why Sheldrake is not only a liar and a pseudo-scientist, he doesn't even understand what science is, what its purpose is, or what the limitations of science are.
#14339091
mikema63 wrote:I don't know this guy well enough to say much but psychic abilities are well disproven.


It is too bad that you are just dismissing him as basically "weird" or "mystical" simply because you oppose him. How disappointing. Oh well, I was hoping you'd have an actual argument, but I suppose that's too much to ask for.
#14339099
mikema63 wrote:I very specifically pointed out that I didn't know him well enough to do that, however psychic abilities have been thoroughly disproven.

I cannot tell if your being sarcastic or not.

I believe he is.
Just curious though, how have psychic abilities been disproven?
#14339177
Experimental studies. One in particular springs to mind in the case of aura manipulation.

These people claimed they could feel and manipulate the aura of others. So they were asked to put their hand through a barrier and determine if there was a person there. They couldn't beat chance.
#14339188
The James Randi foundation still has a million dollars kicking around.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

    The Foundation is committed to providing reliable information about paranormal claims. It both supports and conducts original research into such claims.

    At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

    To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests.
#14339270
mikema63 wrote:Experimental studies. One in particular springs to mind in the case of aura manipulation.

A more thorough review of experimental studies can be found here:

[youtube]qw_O9Qiwqew[/youtube]

There is particularly interesting research in precognition that measures subconscious body responses to violent or pornographic images before they are shown to the test subject. There's also been some interesting results in experiments measuring the ability of people to mentally influence random number generators.
#14343460
Okay, this is my thinking process it sounds reasonable in my own head and is part of what prompted this topic, please feel free to critique it. The world is insanely large, every day there are many interactions taking place on the earth between particles, fields, etc. Naturally in any large system with an insane or perhaps mind boggling number of interactions would be a better term there are likely to be abnormalities. Just by their very nature they will be [I]infrequent and non-reproducible[I]. Because of this they are outside the realm of science though they could conceivably be explained scientifically. Note: I am not saying this means that pay abilities are real or that I personally have experienced any such phenomena (that I can recall), however let us pretend for the sake of argument that I had "phased" through a wall or somesuch. How could I prove it to you? I could not. In fact I would have no way of reproducing the experience because I wouldn't understand it or know all of the factors that led to it. Now, if I would relate that experience to someone especially someone trained as a scientist who in a sense has a duty/responsibility to maintain a healthy skepticism I would probably be thought a lunatic. In fact the scientist might convince me that I was a lunatic even if the experience was real! It seems to me that it part "reality" is just "agreed upon events" and their meaning. So... what is different ...? We now live in a world of 7 billion people. 14 billion eyeballs and other sense organs dynamically experiencing the world anew each moment not counting the effect of animals, inanimate objects, etc. At some point just by random chance someone is going to experience something weird. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that all accounts of UFO abductions, astral projection, etc are now TRUE. I am asking how should science/logic/reasonable people deal with the new age we live in in which there is a deluge of data and much of it is lost within a relatively short period of time (on a cosmological scale)? http://news.ubc.ca/2013/12/19/scientifi ... ming-rate/ Also, how can we tell the difference between real experience that was lost, hallucination/etc, and the creation of our own perceptions both within our minds and in objective (ie shared) perception? http://m.livescience.com/39038-how-delu ... ption.html
How do we know that new kinds of brains aren't evolving that are perceiving (creating) the world anew? It has happened before with synesthetes for example who were thought nuts until modern Neuroscience. To me, it seems like people observe something new -> detractors say they are crazy or kill them -> we gain more knowledge that allows us to integrate the information with "what we know" -> the universe throws us a new monkey wrench and we go on the merry-go-round once again. It has happened with great individuals/inventors/minds like Newton, etc but also men like the Buddha who "saw something new" (ie that all humans could have value and meaning in a time where degredation of humans was quite common) and it happens with societal shifts such as accepting evolution or that Africans are human beings not animals. So it happens both with noticing new phenomena and ascribing new meaning to that phenomena. For the theists in the audience it is perhaps akin to deistic/pantheistic version of progressive revelation. Anyhow, it is late. Goodnight.
#14348112
mikema63 wrote:Experimental studies. One in particular springs to mind in the case of aura manipulation.

These people claimed they could feel and manipulate the aura of others. So they were asked to put their hand through a barrier and determine if there was a person there. They couldn't beat chance.


How does this disprove psychic abilities? It only proves that those who claimed to have them were frauds. It's possible that some humans have a psychic ability which they have used but have unable to reproduce them, or that those who do have them have not came forward to be tested. Or quite simply, we have the ability but no one has discovered it yet.

In short, psychic abilities have not been disproved.
#14348290
No because scientific claims and theories are still open to scrutiny and rapid modification.

Science is a methodology for evaluating observed phenomena. There isn't a counter proposal for an alternative methodology other than 'we shouldn't evaluate observed phenomena'.

To imply dogma/orthodoxy is to imply some kind of faith based approach. To imply faith is to imply that 'we shoudn't evaluate observed phenomena'. As I understand it scientific method still chiefly relies on experimentation, observation and evaluation.

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