[Rei Murasame]

To focus on the "skimpy armour" tangent, my argument would suggest that one way to make female gamers more welcome in a game would be to have female game developers create the looks for female characters in video games.

Yes, but then centre-leftists still complain, because they discover that female designers definition of what 'cute' and 'sexy' women are, happen to overlap which what men think a 'cute' or 'sexy' woman looks like.

So if they go for a sexy design, then they are accused of 'pandering to the sexual gaze of men'. And if they go for a cute design, then they are accused of 'pandering to airheaded women and ephebophiles'. It is almost impossible to 'win' when they have a criticism for both design choices.

Example, the character designer for Bayonetta is a woman (Shimako aka Mari Shimazaki). And the character designer for Hyperdimension Neptunia is also a woman (Tsunako aka... I cannot remember her true name). People like Sarkeesian have a criticism for both ends of that spectrum, so that designers literally cannot 'win'.

The other excuse by Sarkeesian is that Asian female designers and design leads 'do not count', for some incomprehensible reason (she believes we 'do not have any feminism at all'). So when she says she wants more female designers, she means she wants more of them to be white women as opposed to Asian ones.

[Potemkin]

To focus on the "skimpy armour" tangent, my argument would suggest that one way to make female gamers more welcome in a game would be to have female game developers create the looks for female characters in video games.

An excellent idea, PoD! I suggest asking these fine ladies to design the female characters in video games for male and female nerds the world over. I'm sure they'll come up with a completely non-objectifying design for female characters which will totally not pander to the male gaze....



ESSEX! ESSEX! ESSEX!

[Decky]

The centre left enjoy moaning, whatever happens it will be "wrong" as far as they are concerned.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, but then centre-leftists still complain, because they discover that female designers definition of what 'cute' and 'sexy' women are, happen to overlap which what men think a 'cute' or 'sexy' woman looks like.

So if they go for a sexy design, then they are accused of 'pandering to the sexual gaze of men'. And if they go for a cute design, then they are accused of 'pandering to airheaded women and ephebophiles'. It is almost impossible to 'win' when they have a criticism for both design choices.

Example, the character designer for Bayonetta is a woman (Shimako aka Mari Shimazaki). And the character designer for Hyperdimension Neptunia is also a woman (Tsunako aka... I cannot remember her true name). People like Sarkeesian have a criticism for both ends of that spectrum, so that designers literally cannot 'win'.

Yes, there will be criticism no matter what they come up with.

I have faith in female game developers to be able to receive the criticism in an intelligent manner. By this I mean, I think they are smart enough to listen to female gamers and not centre-leftists, or anyone else with an axe to grind.

The other excuse by Sarkeesian is that Asian female designers and design leads 'do not count', for some incomprehensible reason (she believes we 'do not have any feminism at all'). So when she says she wants more female designers, she means she wants more of them to be white women as opposed to Asian ones.

I haven't really paid attention to her because she is, in my opinion, more of a critic than a gamer or game developer. Having said that, I get the vibe that she is speaking from within her own cultural paradigm and probably has trouble seeing things from a non-Western point of view, thus impairing her ability to critically analyse non-Western games.

[Rei Murasame]

Yes, there will be criticism no matter what they come up with.

I have faith in female game developers to be able to receive the criticism in an intelligent manner. By this I mean, I think they are smart enough to listen to female gamers and not centre-leftists, or anyone else with an axe to grind.

Fair enough, this much I can agree on.

I haven't really paid attention to her because she is, in my opinion, more of a critic than a gamer or game developer. Having said that, I get the vibe that she is speaking from within her own cultural paradigm and probably has trouble seeing things from a non-Western point of view, thus impairing her ability to critically analyse non-Western games.

Essentially, yes. This is kind of twilight zone, do we usually end up agreeing on something?

[mikema63]

I think rei is turning into a center leftist.

[Rei Murasame]

I think it's just that at Pants-of-Dog isn't willing to follow Sarkeesian into madness, which is perfectly reasonable.

Also, I want to address this issue of male gaze, since I find that western feminists far too often assume that if there is a gaze happening, that the gaze is always male. But when the female designer is drawing, under whose gaze is that pen? There must also be a female gaze that falls upon other females, one which people should have realised long ago anyway, since if you remove all men from an environment, women actually continue to compete with each other on the basis of looks.

For example, taking school as a benchmark, I can think of no time at which a female student would go out of their way to show a really cute bra to a male student, because why would you do that, it's not like they will appreciate it given that they are interested in your boobs without the bra on. So who is it actually shown to? Female colleagues, obviously, hence why if you are showing something off, you used to go to other women to be like, "check this out, isn't it great?". Girls are therefore in fact dressing themselves for girls to look at, in many contexts.

I'm sure that Saeko and Colliric can confirm this, if anyone thinks it's just me being weird. There is a homosocial framework that decides these things, which is frequently overlooked.

[Saeko]

Murder victims have no voice. Women do.

Exactly, and by the logic of your argument, that would mean that it would be impossible to know whether any murder has ever actually occurred.

If you can objectively define things like sexism (as you did in a previous post) and murder, then you don't need the victims of sexism or murder to tell you what those things are.

I know what sexism is. I know enough about it to know that it affects women more than men.

Your continual failure, purposeful or otherwise, to notice the contradiction won't make it go away.

So is sexism something that we can objectively determine is happening or not?

And yet every time you ask me to define a word, I wrote the definition I am using and you agree with it.

Yes, I agree with them all because

a) I don't want to get into an argument about semantics
b) Your argument is your own, and I don't want to be accused of putting words in your mouth by assuming a different meaning for the terms you use.

You have no point, as far as I can tell, except to try and make me define every word of my argument over and over again.

I have only asked you to define two whole words. Once each. I have never asked you to repeat those definitions.

I have, however, asked you to apply those definitions in specific circumstances, which you've tried to dodge at every opportunity.

Look, I am no longer going to have the debate about how I debate. From now, I will simply reply to those parts of your posts that I deem relevant. I hope you understand.

Easy to say that after you've said your peace on how I debate. I don't care what you do and don't reply to, I'm going to call bullshit when I see it.

The strawmen are multiplying.

I will clarify my argument.

According to many female gamers and female game developers, there are a large number of video games and video game communities that are sexist and not appealing to women.

These female gamers and female game developers also have suggestions and ideas about how to make games more appealing to women. Some are even using these ideas to create games to tap into the female gamer market.

Your "argument" is just "somebody said something, and therefore it must be true and we must do what they say". What if I told you that according to many neo-nazis, the Jews rule the world. Would you then accept their suggestions on how to "remedy" the situation unquestioningly?

Furthermore, there are many female gamers and game developers who don't find much video game content to be sexist. You don't hear from us much because we usually don't bemoan the lack of sexism.

To focus on the "skimpy armour" tangent, my argument would suggest that one way to make female gamers more welcome in a game would be to have female game developers create the looks for female characters in video games.

And as Rei points out, the character designs will look much the same as those designed by men. Personally, if I were designing a game, I would populate it with attractive females, unless there was some reason to make some characters deliberately unattractive.

Yes, but then centre-leftists still complain, because they discover that female designers definition of what 'cute' and 'sexy' women are, happen to overlap which what men think a 'cute' or 'sexy' woman looks like.

So if they go for a sexy design, then they are accused of 'pandering to the sexual gaze of men'. And if they go for a cute design, then they are accused of 'pandering to airheaded women and ephebophiles'. It is almost impossible to 'win' when they have a criticism for both design choices.

Which is precisely why I think that the real objection Sarkeesian and P-o-D have to sexy female character designs is that men might enjoy them and nothing more.

I'm sure that Saeko and Colliric can confirm this, if anyone thinks it's just me being weird. There is a homosocial framework that decides these things, which is frequently overlooked.

Yes, and sometimes I even pick out articles of clothing for no one's enjoyment except my own!

[Pants-of-dog]

Exactly, and by the logic of your argument, that would mean that it would be impossible to know whether any murder has ever actually occurred.

If you can objectively define things like sexism (as you did in a previous post) and murder, then you don't need the victims of sexism or murder to tell you what those things are.

Again, there is a qualitative difference between sexism and murder in that the targets of sexism are more than capable of voicing their disagreement with sexism.

So is sexism something that we can objectively determine is happening or not?

Sexism is inter-subjective. It is not objective.

I am tempted to say no, simply because of the amount of cultural signifiers you would need to understand in order to understand if something is sexist. This is why I agree with Rei Murasame about Ms. Sarkeesian being unable to critically analyse non-Western video games.

Your "argument" is just "somebody said something, and therefore it must be true and we must do what they say". What if I told you that according to many neo-nazis, the Jews rule the world. Would you then accept their suggestions on how to "remedy" the situation unquestioningly?

No. My argument is that female gamers and female game developers have far more practical experience than I about sexism in video games.

Furthermore, there are many female gamers and game developers who don't find much video game content to be sexist. You don't hear from us much because we usually don't bemoan the lack of sexism.

And I understand that you do not see a problem with sexism in video games. And because I understand that you do not see a problem, I am going to assume that your voice does not need support in a debate about sexism in video games for the simple reason that you are not actually involved n the debate.

And as Rei points out, the character designs will look much the same as those designed by men. Personally, if I were designing a game, I would populate it with attractive females, unless there was some reason to make some characters deliberately unattractive.

Okay. As I said, I am not arguing for or against any particular outfit, even the ones that I personally think objectify women.

I am arguing that if a video game company wants to create a video game that is appealing to women and is not sexist, and they want to do this by addressing what the character looks like, then they should hire a female game developer to do so because she would have more practical experience addressing that demand.

[Igor Antunov]

To focus on the "skimpy armour" tangent, my argument would suggest that one way to make female gamers more welcome in a game would be to have female game developers create the looks for female characters in video games.

Ok:



Oh wait doesn't count because not white anglo-saxon woman. American cultural imperialism is disgusting.

[Decky]

No surprise to see a misunderstand and bigoted criticism of non European cultures from PoFos resident conquistador.

[Rei Murasame]

On the other end of that spectrum, since we are apparently putting examples now, is Tsunako who draws like:







Neptune is really just one of the cutest characters you ever saw. But I'm sure you can see how there is 'no winning', if you are told that both these approaches are 'wrong'.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

It's wrong, Rei. You're wrong, Rei! You need a strong, intelligent man like POD to tell you what to think and how to dress. You think that stuff is cute? You're just so, so wrong (because a man is telling you that you're wrong). Maybe you like to dress like Saeko does, that is, based on your own choices and what you like to wear (and not because you are dressing for anyone else's pleasure)? Wrong again. Women, as POD portrays oh so well, are weak creatures incapable of making independent choices free of a strong man telling them what to think. So really, you're all just sex objects and unless you dress the way your man wants you to, you're just walking examples of objectification

Holy fuck.

[Igor Antunov]

I find the above pics creepy but I'm not going to start a social movement over it and ask for donations. I simply have more respect for myself. Unlike some...

NSFW: http://imgur.com/a/N6D5p/all

I also realise that animu characters aren't actually human beings, just rough approximations of such. Some even have animal anatomy (such as tails or rabbit ears). They are personifications of heavily stylized fantasy humanoids.

In Knights of Sidonia, one of the most human characters (her role is cook and moral support to the crew) is seemingly a bear. (granted it is a life support suit, but you get the idea)

[Pants-of-dog]

Lol.

All the boys are mad at me because I said the ladies should decide.

[Igor Antunov]

You're just promoting useless leeches. This goes for both ladies and gents in the anti-gamergate camp.

[Ganeshas Rat]

All the boys are mad at me because I said the ladies should decide.

What should the ladies decide? Should they decide how I must piss? Shit. Why I can't choose for myself if I prefer to piss staying, sit with spreaded legs and play games with bra armor girls? I do not make anyone to do it in the same way, why do you decide for me? You Americans are total nuts with your tolerancy.

[Decky]

What should the ladies decide? Should they decide how I must piss? Shit. Why I can't choose for myself if I prefer to piss staying, sit with spreaded legs and play games with bra armor girls? I do not make anyone to do it in the same way, why do you decide for me? You Americans are total nuts with your tolerancy.

PoD isn't a yank, he is a Spaniard.

[Saeko]

Again, there is a qualitative difference between sexism and murder in that the targets of sexism are more than capable of voicing their disagreement with sexism.

Dodging the issue yet again.

Sexism is inter-subjective. It is not objective.

I am tempted to say no, simply because of the amount of cultural signifiers you would need to understand in order to understand if something is sexist. This is why I agree with Rei Murasame about Ms. Sarkeesian being unable to critically analyse non-Western video games.

So if someone doesn't understand that something is happening, does that mean that that thing is not happening, or merely that it is happening but the subject does not understand what exactly is happening?

No. My argument is that female gamers and female game developers have far more practical experience than I about sexism in video games.

Why do you find their expertise so valuable? What are the reasons that they give that there is a lot of sexism in video games? What are their proposed solutions, and why do you think that these solutions will work?

And I understand that you do not see a problem with sexism in video games. And because I understand that you do not see a problem, I am going to assume that your voice does not need support in a debate about sexism in video games for the simple reason that you are not actually involved n the debate.

Then read what I wrote again. Nothing I've said even remotely implies that sexism (when present) is not a problem. I am simply saying that there is no reason to believe that there is anywhere near the amount of sexism that is usually claimed by you and the "voices you support".

Okay. As I said, I am not arguing for or against any particular outfit, even the ones that I personally think objectify women.

I am arguing that if a video game company wants to create a video game that is appealing to women and is not sexist, and they want to do this by addressing what the character looks like, then they should hire a female game developer to do so because she would have more practical experience addressing that demand.

If a company wants to create a video game that is appealing to women and is not sexist, then they should do some research and find out what is appealing to women and do more of it, and find out what sexism is and do less of it.

Female game developers should be hired for their skills and competence, not to satisfy internet ideologues, or because they are somehow magically free of sexist attitudes or beliefs.

This is an example of character designs by SJW Brianna Wu:



Notice the... uh... realistic body proportions? Umm... non-conventional representations of beauty...? The ethnically diverse cast... ? Lack of heteronormativity and gender binari... ? Hmm...

[mikema63]

^To be honest those are the ugliest video game characters I've seen in recent memory.