Extraterrestials and the possibility of them visiting us - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Anything from household gadgets to the Large Hadron Collider (note: political science topics belong in the Environment & Science forum).

Moderator: PoFo The Lounge Mods

#15282056
Carbon seems to be the only valid basis for life. While silicone and other elements still have some of the amazing chemical flexibility of carbon, ultimately they are probably not actually able to be a basis for life. That is why, as far as we can tell, carbon based lifeforms are the only ones that can exist. That means life probably need compareable conditions to our planet to develop. Conditions such as the presence of liquid water.

Recently science has found out that a planet like ours is actually very unlikely to exist. We have a rare type of star, our star is most unusually silent and stable, we have the rarest subtype of planet distribution (big gassy planets on the outside, small rocky planets on the inside), our planetary orbits are also very stable (safe for Mercury and Venus who are a bit too close to each other for completely stable orbits and could theoretically over time collide or throw another out of orbit, which however wont turn into a problem before our sun turns into a red giants and will swallow them both anyway), and are very round with little excentricity (safe for Pluto and other outer dwarf planets), our satelite the moon is also very important to life (it stabilizes our rotation axis), as is our magnetosphere, which save for a gap around 500 million years ago has always protected our atmosphere and allowed gases like nitrogen and oxgen to exist in the first place (while for example Venus was stripped of everything but carbon dioxide). Using various methods we have found thousands of extrasolar planets by now, but none of them is like our Earth.

But the size of the visible universe is immense, and while the average distribution of matter is amazingly thin, it has accumulated in places, we call them galaxies, to very high densities. Roughly a hundred billion of these galaxies are in the visible universe, and roughly a hundred billion of star systems are on average in a galaxy. Thats why, no matter how unlikely sentient life in the end is, we are very likely not alone.

So extra-terrestials, despite the fact we have no evidence for them, are very likely to exist. The real question is therefore does FTL (Faster Than Lightspeed) travel exist ?

Because the only way that extra-terrestials can realistically reach us without FTL is if they would reside in the same galaxy and would have been spreading over this galaxy in automated probes, generation ships, and compareable concepts. Would any civilization actually put in the enormous effort to explore their own galaxy this way ? Will WE ever undergo this enormous effort ? Important is also that without FTL, extra-terrestials wouldnt have visited us so quickly after we started using the nuclear bomb. Which seems to have been the trigger point of reports of UFOs being sighted.

Modern scientists mostly think FTL is probably not possible. However there are constructs such as the Einstein-Rosen-Bridge (more commonly known as Wormhole, or White Hole) or the Alcubierre drive (sort of popularized by Star Trek as Warpdrive, though technically the idea of the Alcubierre drive actually was introduced in the 19960s while Star Trek was already around in the 1960s).

---

It is therefore excessively hard to determine what is to make of recent claims that mankind has had contact with extraterrestial life. Namely the US administration is accused of having collected spaceships and bodies of extraterrestial origin and keeping them from the public.

https://www.npr.org/2023/07/27/11903903 ... ogics-uaps

Personally I think this story is clearly a hoax. Why would the US government allow officials running around spreading state secrets in the open ? Look no further than Edward Snowden, Juliane Assange and Chelsea Manning to find out how the USA treats people who publically report wha the US elites dont want to be publically known. Spoiler alert: they dont get to testify in front of a US federal parliament.

Another very clear sign is that the people who say the USA did this - provide no evidence whatsoever for their claim. Instead they stated they will provide evidence to the authorities in private, but most people know what that means by now. It means they have most likely simply diddly squat to show and are just fake whistle blowers, with the real goal to distract the public from the recent political events, such as the increasingly alarming findings about the sitting presidents family and his ever more likely involvement in corruption.

So the most likely scenario seems to me that we dont actually have contact with extraterrestials. Either extraterrestials are so extremely far away that even with FTL we are too hard to reach, or much more likely FTL is really impossible.

---
#15282425
Negotiator wrote:

So extra-terrestials, despite the fact we have no evidence for them, are very likely to exist. The real question is therefore does FTL (Faster Than Lightspeed) travel exist ?





That's the big question, isn't it?

I recently watched a youtube by a physicist describing the problems we will face developing an FTL drive. It looks impossible.

But, you never know. But I will say (for the millionth time) that if somebody did come all that way, we'd know it, assuming we survived.

#15282432
ingliz wrote:The pixelated universe.

It's most likely we are Sims, so whoever programmed the simulation could have us meeting whomever she, he, or it pleases.


:)


I totally disagree. People vastly vastly underestimate what it takes to simulate even a microscopic volume of space let alone an entire universe.
#15282499
@Saeko

Space-time and matter are not fundamental phenomena. Instead, physical reality is fundamentally made up of bits of information, from which our experience of space-time emerges. By comparison, temperature emerges from the collective movement of atoms. No single atom fundamentally has temperature.

It from bit symbolises the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom — at a very deep bottom, in most instances — an immaterial source and explanation; that what we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe.

John Archibald Wheeler (1989) Information, Physics, Quantum: The Search for Links


:)
Last edited by ingliz on 08 Aug 2023 15:08, edited 1 time in total.
#15282500
No. We will not be visited by aliens for a very long time. We're too immature. Our first response to meeting aliens would be to see what hurts them. It's our human nature. We need to overcome that and become of one mind before we can do that. Our world is fractured and always at war. We're not there yet.

Aliens who do even a bit of research, will learn this.
#15282508
Beren wrote:
Which means literally nothing, especially if you're a layman.



Yes, and no.

I'm not ruling it out, but then neither is the physicist in the video. You did watch it, didn't you? It sounds impossible, what that means is it's not likely to happen in this century. Maybe not the next one, either.
#15282516
late wrote:It sounds impossible, what that means is it's not likely to happen in this century. Maybe not the next one, either.

It doesn't even necessarily mean that. At least in the movie nuclear fission seemed impossible to Oppenheimer himself even while being reported that it had been actually done in Germany, so he couldn't even dream about making a nuclear bomb himself. Scientific or whatever breakthrough can come totally unexpectedly and change everything suddenly.
#15282550
If aliens wanted to contact us, they would have already. They don't want to to. They want to observe us.

I still have doubts that all of these UFOs can't be explained by something else, but I am open-minded. :D

What if we already made "First contact", but didn't know it? :eek:
#15282585
When it comes to travelling, we haven't done particularly well over the last half a century. Human's haven't left low earth orbit. Our missions to the outer planets, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto have been extremely limited. Our commercial jets don't really fly faster. High speed rail has advanced some what but its extremely limited in its coverage. For many people in the western world their driving time, in other words their fastest travelling time for their most common journeys has increased rather than decreased.For the last 500 years the prospect of us meeting alien life has continually receded.

Scientists obviously have above average intelligence, well above average intelligence when applied to their fields, when they go beyond that they can display the most gross stupidity. Perhaps nothing better illustrates the stupidity of scientists better than the Voyagers' Golden records. What a waste of effort that was. If you want to put a record of humanity to be found by Aliens, even when we've gone extinct, put it on the Moon, Mars on one of the rocky satellites of the gas giants. If you want to maximise its permeance put it on some Kuiper Belt objects. The last place you should put it is on some tiny space craft that will be power dead in decades heading out into interstellar space. Yet people look up to these scientist morons.

We live in a very special place on the surface of the earth. That's what we've learnt or should have learnt over the last 500 years. Even a hundred years ago, it was still reasonable to believe that we might find life on Mars. The Moon's dead. The planets are dead. Their satellites are almost certainly dead. The Kuiper Belt objects are dead. So Hey lets go another 40 trillion kilometres to the nearest start system so we can find some more almost certainly dead planets. But the idiot scientists keep regaling us with their Copernican Principle nonsense.
#15282586
Rich wrote:When it comes to travelling, we haven't done particularly well over the last half a century. Human's haven't left low earth orbit. Our missions to the outer planets, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto have been extremely limited. Our commercial jets don't really fly faster. High speed rail has advanced some what but its extremely limited in its coverage. For many people in the western world their driving time, in other words their fastest travelling time for their most common journeys has increased rather than decreased.For the last 500 years the prospect of us meeting alien life has continually receded.

Scientists obviously have above average intelligence, well above average intelligence when applied to their fields, when they go beyond that they can display the most gross stupidity. Perhaps nothing better illustrates the stupidity of scientists better than the Voyagers' Golden records. What a waste of effort that was. If you want to put a record of humanity to be found by Aliens, even when we've gone extinct, put it on the Moon, Mars on one of the rocky satellites of the gas giants. If you want to maximise its permeance put it on some Kuiper Belt objects. The last place you should put it is on some tiny space craft that will be power dead in decades heading out into interstellar space. Yet people look up to these scientist morons.

We live in a very special place on the surface of the earth. That's what we've learnt or should have learnt over the last 500 years. Even a hundred years ago, it was still reasonable to believe that we might find life on Mars. The Moon's dead. The planets are dead. Their satellites are almost certainly dead. The Kuiper Belt objects are dead. So Hey lets go another 40 trillion kilometres to the nearest start system so we can find some more almost certainly dead planets. But the idiot scientists keep regaling us with their Copernican Principle nonsense.

The Earth is not an average place in the Universe. Hell, even interstellar space isn’t an average place in the Universe. No, if you were somehow to be dropped into a random place in the Universe, the overwhelming likelihood is that you would find yourself in intergalactic space, millions of light years from the nearest star. 99.9999999999% of the Universe is a bleak wasteland in the middle of nowhere, literally.
#15282590
So from our current understanding of biochemistry the appearance of life should be virtually impossible. Even the most basic biological replicator seems to require such complexity, that even if every planet in the known universe were suitable for life, we would not expect a single instance to appear by chance. Yet life seems to have appeared on earth almost as soon as the conditions allowed it. This is the conundrum.

So it seems to me that the Fermi Paradox is really quite unsound. If life is common. If intelligent life is relatively common and like us wants to expand and settle on other planets. Then the obvious question to me would seem to be not where are they, but why are we here. If we could get to a habitable plane, our instinct would be to settle it, introducing what ever biological organisms from our own world that seemed desirable, modify them if necessary. We would not say, oh lets observe this planet for the next four and half billion years and see what emerges so as we might be able to have an interesting conversation a few billion years from now.

The conclusions I would draw, is that either intelligent life has not merged else where in the galaxy, or if it has, it has not been able to seed complex life across interstellar space. Life on earth could have been seed across inter stellar space, and that would explain its appearance so suddenly after conditions for sustaining life on on Earth arrived.
#15282624
Rich wrote:If we could get to a habitable plane, our instinct would be to settle it, introducing what ever biological organisms from our own world that seemed desirable, modify them if necessary. We would not say, oh lets observe this planet for the next four and half billion years and see what emerges so as we might be able to have an interesting conversation a few billion years from now.

Sure, we're still instinctive rather than aware and intelligent, so we really don't know if how really (highly) aware and intelligent creatures might (collectively) be. In my opinion they'd mean to conceive planets (with their own DNA or DNA from their home planet(s), for example) rather than directly conquering and inhabiting them, then they'd probably oversee what happens. That's how I think they'd colonise planets, although we clearly don't know if what agenda and methods they have even if they're just an-order-of-magnitude older (~100,000 years old) or more developed civilisation than we are.
#15282629
We'd be little more than tool-using apes to any species that could master interstellar travel. Our greatest technology and weapons would be little more than a slight inconvenience to such a species.
#15295434
Godstud wrote:If aliens wanted to contact us, they would have already.


Sure it may have happened already, albeit covertly.

They don't want to to. They want to observe us.


No, as long ago as 1964 Vallee rejected that notion, rightly I think.

I still have doubts that all of these UFOs can't be explained by something else, but I am open-minded.


Good. :)
#15295489
Aliens never contacted Earth nor are they visiting us because otherwise you would need to explain a global conspiracy of at least 50-100 most developed states and all the people not talking about it and bringing up evidence. That is not plausible at all. Sadly either aliens don't care about us/prohibited to talk to us or they do not exist as a sentient beings who reached a higher technological level than us.

Leftists have often and openly condemned the Octob[…]

Israel-Palestinian War 2023

So you do, or do not applaud Oct 7th? If you say […]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this be als[…]

@FiveofSwords " chimpanzee " Havin[…]