Oxymoron wrote:Meaning this, setting a proper gender example. Meaning if the father stays at home there better be a good reason for it. Best situation is if the Mother is the main caretaker, if she is the bread winner then I can see that a Father would be the better choice over a baby sitter.
That is still extremely vague. If the father stays home and is the primary caregiver...how could he be 'the mother'? What would that entail?
You said, "I dont have a problem with a stay at home dad either, as long as he is not trying to be the Mother." If being a stay at home father is not immediately a violation of the gender norms you support...then what would be, in his context as the primary caregiver to his children?
What would he have to do to 'try to be the Mother'?
Oxymoron wrote:
Feminists are pushing for womens power, they want equal compensation for unequal work
I have never seen a feminist advocate this, anywhere. In fact, the refrain is "
equal pay for equal work". This is the sort of claim you need to back up with some sort of proof given how opposed it is to the actual advocacy done by feminists.
Oxymoron wrote:, they want men to be complaint with this agenda. Feminist want to allow women freedom, but position men in subservant roles.
What are subservient roles, in your opinion? How are men positioned into these roles by feminists?
Oxymoron wrote:
Meaning anytime a man wants to defend himself and his beliefs he is labeled a Mysoginist or worse.
Again, none of this makes much sense without examples.
Oxymoron wrote:
Your examples are I am reviewing and will comment later.
Appreciated.
Oxy, I am trying to understand what your position is here...but I'm having a lot of difficulty. Can you be more specific, and provide examples of feminists actually doing or advocating the things you claim they do?
Because it's fine to have an opinion that 'this is feminism'...but if you want other people to believe that your opinion is a correct characterisation then you sort of have to back it up. Particularly since you have told me in a few threads that my views are not represented in mainstream feminism (to which I am very willing to respond with evidence that contradicts your assertion).
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noemon wrote:
I partly agree, but that is irrelevant. To identify ideals, like in any mathematical system, one has to isolate the system. To identify the ideal gender roles, one has to do so first within an isolated family, after this exercise is complete one can enter the parameters of the extended-family and identify how these members can help within the community, and after this exercise is complete we can then proceed on setting the parameters for society as a whole through Law, and how can Law aid to preserve these ideals that we have agreed in the first place for the betterment of individual families and therefore society as a whole.
But we are not there yet. And to make this discussion comprehensive, we first have to set the micro-particles within an isolated system. As far as I am concerned it does not go more micro than the 2-base system of parenthood.
As Socrates said: You want democracy?, start with your family.
Well that's your particular approach, but it certainly doesn't suit my cultural paradigm, so forgive me if I don't accept it as a methodology I wish to apply when I think about gender roles and family.
I don't have much to say about what you've described in terms of breast-feeding and negotiating what comes after that...you haven't introduced inherent limits to the roles of parents, thus I am not in opposition.
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KFlint wrote:So then yiwahikanak, in your view, is a feminist for or against a man treating women in a chivalrous manner? I.e. opening doors, taking the outside of the street, pulling out a chair, standing when a lady enters the room, etc?
The problem with what many people call 'chivalrous' is that with it comes expectations of how the woman is supposed to act.
I open the door for people regardless of gender, and I imagine most polite people do the same. Well, I'd hope so anyway. Nothing worse than having a door slam in your face because someone couldn't be bothered to even hold it open behind them.
Would you be offended if a woman opened a door for you to be polite? Would that harm your 'chivalry'? If not, I'm not seeing the problem.
I don't understand the need to stand when a lady enters a room, but if that's your particular custom, I'm not going to be offended by it. Not unless based on that custom you think I need to do something that I don't want to do...examples of which I can't come up with, perhaps you have some?
What you call chivalry, I'd call human politeness and I do not think it is limited to a single gender. Consideration for others does not need to be a gendered issue.
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Oxymoron wrote:Perhaps my issues are not so much with Feminists, but more generally with contempary society as a whole. That is why I created this thread, to discuss what should society look like, and what should we expect from its citizens. Obviously Men and Women are biologically different, there is a difference in the way our bodies are structured and how we react to the world, there is obviously a social element. So I want to figure out a balance between freedom of choice, and a healthy society.
I think most people share your dissatisfaction with contemporary living, whether they approach this from a feminist perspective or not. I see increasing urbanisation being carried out in ways that alienate people from one another (suburbs) rather than promoting closer social bonds. I support a more communal approach to child-rearing, which would ideally include extended families but could also involve a network of friends etc. I want there to be more space for families in general, which would mean altering the way in which we work in order to allow us to spend time with our loved ones. I want these things for men and women because I believe that modern living can be profoundly unhealthy if we continue to alienate ourselves from one another and from our environment.