Organizing society in an uninhabitable island - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By eugenekop
#13667550
I am not against sharing resources, I am only against aggression. Should those who didn't use violence against others be allowed not to recognize the leadership or perform the "duties" and "obligations" set by the leaders?
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By Figlio di Moros
#13667559
Violence is an occassional necessity; if 40 people havea leader, and 10 people refuse to cohabitate, refuse to leave, and demand the other 40 people suscribe to their ideas, then violence might become necessary. Yiwa's describing them having the option to leave rather than follow the leadership agreed upon or requiring violence to settle the dispute.

Yiwa, do you believe 50 random westerners would naturally revert to band-organization? One of the problems in modern society is the distance from our natural environment; while there's likely a number of random skills useful in the group, there's a distinct possibility a number of people who treat it like Survivor.
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By Fasces
#13667560
Persons 1-49 agree that Person 2 is a good leader, and agree to his program.

Person Eugenekop disagrees. He should be allowed to freely hoard resources, because he doesn't agree with the rationing program set forward by Person 2.

Eugenekop hopes that Persons 1-49 let him be. He thinks this is moral.

In reality, person 1-49 beat Eugene, take his coconuts, and tell him to shape up.

Eugenekop thinks this is unjust. He should be allowed to hoard his coconuts. It is his right.

Persons 1-49 would rather eat.
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By Figlio di Moros
#13667570
I see it differently, Fasces-

Persons 1-49 agree on person 2's leadership

Eugenekop disagrees

Eugenekop believes he has a right to the product of his labor, and should be able to freely trade

Persons 1-49 withdraw their coconuts from eugenekop

Eugenekop can't climb palm trees or hunt, so he tries trading rocks

Eugenekop starves
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By Fasces
#13667572
Is it enough to say that the idea that fifty people comprise a state, and can devise currency, trade regulations, and so forth is patently ridiculous, and the analogy simply fails, in that regard?
By eugenekop
#13667577
f 40 people havea leader, and 10 people refuse to cohabitate, refuse to leave, and demand the other 40 people suscribe to their ideas


They don't demand that. They live peacefully. That was my assumption. Should they be able to live peacefully?

In reality, person 1-49 beat Eugene, take his coconuts, and tell him to shape up.


Why would they beat me? If there are 50 coconut trees and I only use one, what's the problem?

Person Eugenekop disagrees. He should be allowed to freely hoard resources, because he doesn't agree with the rationing program set forward by Person 2.


What If I agree that I will not take more resources than every other person. Would that save me from violence or you would apply violence in any case?
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By Fasces
#13667585
Should they be able to live peacefully?


Should they be allowed to take from a limited pool of resources as they desire?

If there are 50 coconut trees and I only use one, what's the problem?


So, you're accepting the system of governance in practice, while rejecting government?

What If I agree that I will not take more resources than every other person. Would that save me from violence or you would apply violence in any case?


What if I do pay my taxes and go to jury duty? Will the government leave me alone?

You can say you reject the leadership all you want if you continue to abide by it. "Fuck government and taxes. Death to government! Hello, Mr. Tax Collector, how much do I owe you this year? Will a check do?"
By grassroots1
#13667601
Persons 1-49 agree that Person 2 is a good leader, and agree to his program.

Person Eugenekop disagrees. He should be allowed to freely hoard resources, because he doesn't agree with the rationing program set forward by Person 2.

Eugenekop hopes that Persons 1-49 let him be. He thinks this is moral.

In reality, person 1-49 beat Eugene, take his coconuts, and tell him to shape up.

Eugenekop thinks this is unjust. He should be allowed to hoard his coconuts. It is his right.

Persons 1-49 would rather eat.


:lol: This would be my response as well.
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By ThereBeDragons
#13667604
eugenekop wrote:Why would they beat me? If there are 50 coconut trees and I only use one, what's the problem?

Why do you get a coconut tree in the first place?
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By yiwahikanak
#13667613
Figlio di Moros wrote:
Yiwa, do you believe 50 random westerners would naturally revert to band-organization? One of the problems in modern society is the distance from our natural environment; while there's likely a number of random skills useful in the group, there's a distinct possibility a number of people who treat it like Survivor.


If I were stuck with a bunch of urban westerners, I'd probably go off on my own to be honest, rather than deal with those bizarre 'Survivor'-like power games.

So no...I think most would choose a system that would be most suited to such a situation (interdependence), but I do believe some would be idiotic about it. I can imagine someone like eugenekop espousing his ideals and totally failing to help in the most basic, obvious ways then wondering why people consider him less than useful.
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By Figlio di Moros
#13667675
Always look for the guy with the cowboy hat, if you're ever in that scenerio. Rednecks are your natural ally(outside the great plains, ofc). ;)

honestly, I'd be worried the people I'd be stuck with were the urbanites. If the 40-10 scenerio were reversed, 40 urbanites playing "survivor" games and 10 of us playing "colony", do you think going off would be a practicable solution? There's a chance they'd need us to survive, and would try to get us back after they started to starve; would you go back to lead in that scenerio?

Obversely, they would continue being wasteful, slovenly(sic), and manage to obtain food much less effeciently. If they began wasting our resources, would you consider violence a possible solution?
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By yiwahikanak
#13667695
Most urbanites are not so stupid as to fail to recognise the importance of the skills that rural people tend to have, particularly in situations where those skills are needed.

The ones who are that stupid...hopefully would be soon persuaded. If they attempted to fuck things up, I would most certainly use violence to protect my ability to continue living.
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By Figlio di Moros
#13667730
You've just inspired me to make a bow from a branch; always a good skill to have.

I'm sure urbanites aren't that dumb, but a lot of shit on TV(note: not the people, the viewers) makes me wonder about the mentality of them. There's always the distinct possibility of subversion-through-laziness.
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By Thunderhawk
#13667769
The primary assumption is that escape is impossible

You should have said so in the beginning. No chance of rescue does not mean no chance of escape.
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By Figlio di Moros
#13667773
Who here can fashion seaworthy craft?
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By yiwahikanak
#13667776
Sorry, my people are from the Plains.
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By Figlio di Moros
#13667777
Making decent sails would be difficult... I have no idea how to turn plant material into fiber, and it would take a lot of animals to get the hides necessary. The alternative is flaying the unproductive for sail-material- get some sort of productivity out of them. Also, their flesh could fertilize the soil, if we have any sowable vegetables on the island.
By eugenekop
#13667993
Why do you get a coconut tree in the first place?


I never said I would. I'm sure norms regarding ownership will emerge. However I don't imagine a welfare state ever emerging unless people were willing to use violence in order to make those who refuse to pay "taxes" to submit to their rule. I'm pretty sure that the right of secession would be respected in such scenario as well, at least with western people on the island. As I see it the organization in such experiment will eventually lead to Anarcho-capitalism.
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By ingliz
#13668012
50 people ...Anarcho-capitalism

Capitalism implies mass production, mechanisation, the factory system, wage labour, division of labour, etc. etc. I do not see the need for such a system in a tiny isolated subsistence economy. What are you going to do with the surplus? Bury it
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