[Oxymoron]

What does equality even mean? Equal to who? Quantified how?

It means every person should have the same protection of rights, and equal opportunity. Meaning if a girl wants to join the fire department she has to pass the same tests. Meaning if a woman is passed over a job even though she is best qualified there should be recourse.

KKK in application on this issue is about advancing the interests of white men as an organised group with the aim of helping to build a more just and sustainable society. That's neither about equality nor supremacy, but simply about what is best.

How does that sound?

[Rei Murasame]

When did you transform into a defender of the liberal order? Seriously, what?

(Plus, I didn't say anything about mandating that women should be automatically given positions in fire departments anyway.)

[Oxymoron]

What do you mean liberal order?

[Rei Murasame]

This:

every person should have the same protection of rights, and equal opportunity.

Basically locking in the present order and declaring that everything is okay and that nothing would be wrong so long as the laws on the books claim that everyone is 'the same'.

[Oxymoron]

Yes if everyones rights are respected equally, there shouldnt be a problem.

[Rei Murasame]

You are essentially a classical liberal then. When did this happen?

[yiwahikanak]

When talking about any sort of discrimination and Supremacist Ideology, you will get blow back Yiw. feminism is a form of supremasist ideology.

Yes Oxymoron, I am quite aware that you and Ter and others believe this. You state it as unquestionable fact, and truly believe it, regardless of what feminists have to say on the matter. I am tired of having to dispute your very fucked up version of feminism. Having you tell me what I believe and what I fight for, is you trying to define for me what feminism is and then demand that we discuss it on your terms. You don't get to do that and have me respond to your accusations. I define what my feminism means, and if you do not have the ability to respect what I have to say about my feminism, then butt out. Seriously.

It's not that this conversation can't happen...but as I said, I'm tired of it being the only allowable/possible conversation about feminism that people on this forum can engage in.

[Rei Murasame]

Also, in defence of Yiwa's approach, I just have to say it's a little odd how she's now the one catching most of the flak for feminism, when she's presenting what is probably a slightly more accommodating approach than I am (I think?).


I've also seen feminists get accused of a 'war on men' (earlier today in some other thread, I'm sure it was Oxy that made the accusation) or some such thing, but I'm pretty sure that this isn't occurring - at the present moment, women don't have any particular ability to break up or interrupt male-bonding at all (nor would we want to).

However, I won't dismiss it, if someone can tell me what is it that men are feeling that they are losing, then I'll certainly listen, but from here I see that men still hang out with each other, talk their own specialised lingo, watch football, discuss topics that are completely incomprehensible to me, etc, etc. I don't see anyone telling them that they should stop that.

[yiwahikanak]

Also, in defence of Yiwa's approach, I just have to say it's a little odd how she's now the one catching most of the flak for feminism, when she's presenting what is probably a slightly more accommodating approach than I am (I think?).

I think I probably am, which is something I would really love to explore with you sometime, once these conversations are more possible. Like, I see some of your positions and go "OH MY FUCKING GOD, WHAT!?" and then think...."but this is an intelligent, reasonable person so what is her intelligent reasonable justification for that position I wonder"? I just haven't had the breathing space to get into it with you, but it's on my To Do list

[Pants-of-dog]

Actually it is, the whole idea is to advance womens interests beyond equality because that threshold has been met already.

The threshold of equality has not been met yet. I can give you one clear example of how it has not been met: feminists cannot have a discussion about feminism on PoFo without it becoming a discussion on how feminists oppress men. It gets derailed every single time. If people had the space to actually discuss feminism without a bunch of men coming and controlling the discussion, you might have a point.

Since that is not the case, the threshold of equality is still not met.

What feminists want is the wholesale destruction of what it means to be a man. They want to break down not only definitions on what is a women, but also to change what a men is. Feminism is a menace, and it is not misogynist to say so, I want equality not women in charge.

Thank you for providing evidence for my argument.

[Oxymoron]

You state it as unquestionable fact, and truly believe it, regardless of what feminists have to say on the matter. I am tired of having to dispute your very fucked up version of feminism. Having you tell me what I believe and what I fight for, is you trying to define for me what feminism is and then demand that we discuss it on your terms. You don't get to do that and have me respond to your accusations. I define what my feminism means, and if you do not have the ability to respect what I have to say about my feminism, then butt out. Seriously.

You are not the spokesmen for Feminists, your idea of feminism doesnt make it official. So when you post threads about feminism I view them through the movement as a whole and not your interpetation Yiw.

Pants, the reason males take over threads on Pofo is because Pofo is male dominated, and there is not one blocking more females from joining. I would welcome and infusion of some more active and smart girlies like Yiw

[Pants-of-dog]

You are not the spokesmen for Feminists, your idea of feminism doesnt make it official. So when you post threads about feminism I view them through the movement as a whole and not your interpetation Yiw.

Then why do you give yourself the right to define what feminism is?

Pants, the reason males take over threads on Pofo is because Pofo is male dominated, and there is not one blocking more females from joining. I would welcome and infusion of some more active and smart girlies like Yiw

Why do the men always derail feminist discussions into the same "feminists oppress men" discussion?

[Oxymoron]

Then why do you give yourself the right to define what feminism is?

I dont take the right away from Yiw, but I have a right to defend my point of view on Feminism no matter what Yiw thinks it is. I have a right to state my position.

Why do the men always derail feminist discussions into the same "feminists oppress men" discussion?

We dont derail, we simply dont agree with the premise. This is a discussion forum, not a blog.

[Pants-of-dog]

I dont take the right away from Yiw, but I have a right to defend my point of view on Feminism no matter what Yiw thinks it is. I have a right to state my position.

And people have the right to show you that your point of view is not accurate. Moreover, you should provide evidence for your position if you want it to be seen as true.

We dont derail, we simply dont agree with the premise. This is a discussion forum, not a blog.

Please go to the Misogyny around the world thread to see an example of men derailing a discussion in the exact way I described.

[Oxymoron]

And people have the right to show you that your point of view is not accurate. Moreover, you should provide evidence for your position if you want it to be seen as true.

Yes and its called a discussion or debate, so stop calling it a hijacking. I do provide evidence of my arguments.

Please go to the Misogyny around the world thread to see an example of men derailing a discussion in the exact way I described

I am sure there is some of that on both sides.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes and its called a discussion or debate, so stop calling it a hijacking.

If the discussion or debate is about misogyny, then purposefully changing the subject to something else is hijacking.

I do provide evidence of my arguments.

You have no tprovided evidence that "the whole idea is to advance womens [sic] interests beyond equality", nor have you presented evidence that they "want to break down not only definitions on what is a women [sic], but also to change what a men [sic] is".

I am sure there is some of that on both sides.

Some of what? Are you saying that both sides were trying to derail it? One side was derailing the subject while others were trying to keep it on track.

[Ter]

You have no tprovided evidence that "the whole idea is to advance womens [sic] interests beyond equality", nor have you presented evidence that they "want to break down not only definitions on what is a women [sic], but also to change what a men [sic] is".

How pedantic of you, Pants, to try and ridicule a person less educated than you.
How much lower can you stoop ?
This is disgusting. It reveals more about you than about Oxy.
You might be educated, but Oxy speaks from his heart.


Ter

[Pants-of-dog]

How pedantic of you, Pants, to try and ridicule a person less educated than you.
How much lower can you stoop ?
This is disgusting. It reveals more about you than about Oxy.
You might be educated, but Oxy speaks from his heart.

You are accusing me of being disgusting, pedantic and ridiculous. I am pedantic, admittedly.

If Oxymoron feels that I am ridiculing him and informs me of such, I will apologise to him and explain that I did not mean to denigrate him.

Now, do you have anything to add to the discussion?

[Ter]

Now, do you have anything to add to the discussion?

Discussion ? What discussion ?
You and Yiwa are just bullying everybody out of your threads unless they sing your song.

Do you have any problem with me defending Oxy (or others) when you intimidate him with your so-called superior education ?
Never mind, I don't need your permission. This is a discussion board and it does not belong to you or Yiwa.

Ter

[Oxymoron]

If the discussion or debate is about misogyny, then purposefully changing the subject to something else is hijacking.

No its called disagreeing with the premise. Like if someone said how do you stop the liberal menace, and someone pointed out that there is no such thing and converesly the conservatives are the real menace. Basically its called a debate, if you cant handle opposing view points create a blog.

Some of what? Are you saying that both sides were trying to derail it? One side was derailing the subject while others were trying to keep it on track.

No some people against feminism may say things of a personal nature, or be rude and that is true of the feminist side. Taking an differing view is not derailment.