[Ter]

My problem is that you are not defining the word 'slutty

Please go to Google Images and type in "slutty". It seems to be pretty well defined.



Ter

[Rei Murasame]

I disagree, unless you are prepared to claim that all males are in some sort of hive mind and find the exact same things 'sexy', really?

Here I was thinking that males were diverse in their tastes!

[ThomasNewton]

Rei, although you have a good point Ter does as well. You are correct in saying that not all people have the same preferences. However, Ter is correct in implying that people do think similarly-otherwise the entire field of psychology would not exist.

Trust me on this one, I'm a furry and I know not everyone's into that. However, it would be incorrect to assume just because people think differently they do not also think similarly.

[Ter]

Rei, "slutty" is different from "sexy".
I don't see where you are going with this.

Ter

[Maxim Litvinov]

That's not much of an argument, Rei.

If the authorities have information about what increases the likelihood of something going wrong, the only responsible course of action is to let people know. If driving in the rain for long periods of time increases accidents, let people know about it - even if some workers, like truck drivers or people with a long commute, can't really avoid it.

As for the 'male problem' - which I presume means the problem with people committing sexual violence - well, about as much as can be done is being done in this area. Campaigns more recently in many countries have focussed on getting men to 'look out' for their mates and trying to foster a culture of respect towards women.

[Rei Murasame]

Okay, guys, I think you are not getting it.

If we compiled a list of what males potentially think is 'slutty', they will basically generate a list of everything that has any sort of figure-enhancing cut, followed by a list of every single occupational fetish they can imagine, followed by sportswear, followed by bubblegum, followed by loli, followed by anything else that isn't a tent.

This eventually ends up with you guys advising everyone to wear a tent, and still having to fend off sexual assault anyway.

And yes, I think males do think similarly on some things - like for instance, almost all heterosexual males tend to like women who have young/child-like facial features, and fall within a certain hip-waist ratio. What are we supposed to do? Disfigure ourselves?

That's not much of an argument, Rei.

Well, we can't walk around wearing tents!

[Maxim Litvinov]

You seem to be overthinking this.

[1] Can a woman dress more conservatively? In many situations, yes.
[2] If it is true that less conservative dress increases rates of sexual assault, should people be given this information or left ignorant? They should be given it.

[Rei Murasame]

• 1. I'm sure that we can dress more and more conservatively, just it will not be enough until we are wearing tents, apparently, since no one can tell us where this magical line between "normal" and "provocative" is.
  
  
• 2. If it is true*, then I do agree that people should be told, just it doesn't really solve anything since it'll just become a slow slide toward the burkha, with rapists simply adjusting their targets with the changing fashion.

*which apparently it isn't, since Yiwa's links are suggesting that deliberately attempting to dress significantly more conservatively than your peers actually makes you a more likely target for rapists.

[Maxim Litvinov]

[1] Is faulty reasoning. There is no 'magical line', nor any need for there to be one. Women are not stupid - they know what is conservative and what is provocative.

To use an analogy, drivers know that the faster they drive, the more likely they are to be in a serious accident. Even driving at 20km/h and your risk is slightly higher than driving at 10km/h. Does this mean everyone will or should drive at 10km/h? No (putting paid to your argument in [2]). Do some drivers modify behaviour as a result of this knowledge, leading to fewer fatalities? Yes.

[Rei Murasame]

There is no 'magical line', nor any need for there to be one. Women are not stupid - they know what is conservative and what is provocative.

Apparently we don't, because rapists still try to chase after us no matter what we wear. But if we tried to play that game anyway, then the new 'conservative' will be established in the minds of males, and a new 'provocative' will emerge as a result. It's basically a whole lot of intersecting social issues and it's also not an absolute scale, it's relative, so if you are correct it would always end up being a race toward the most conservative dress imaginable.

Rapists are effectively fashion-blind anyway, and they seem to think that simply being a woman while wearing clothes, is 'provocative'. We'd basically end up altering our whole dress culture in a misguided attempt to ward off a demographic of people who are largely blind to it.

[Maxim Litvinov]

People think that dressing provocatively is more likely to get them assaulted and there has been no 'race to the most conservative dress possible' as you are predicting. Your expectation is faulty.

My position is simply that people should be given the facts which will help them make an informed decision. If it's a fact that dressing more conservatively helps, let people know. If it's a fact that a certain park is less safe after dark, let people know. If it's a fact that walking with a friend decreases the chance of stranger rape by 50%, let people know.

As far as I can tell, your position (and yiwa's) is not the same as this. You appear concerned that giving people the facts will make victims think differently about their victimhood. To me, if telling people the facts results in even just one fewer rapes then it's worth it.

[JRS1]

My problem is that you are not defining the word 'slutty', and the reason you can't do that is because it's actually different for any given observer.

Anyone can rationalise anything they want, can't they?

My problem is that you are pretending not to know the difference between what is likely to perceived as slutty and not slutty - in the context of school uniforms by the way!

I personally dont attach any importance to how women dress or the word slutty, and wouldnt dream of passing judgement or taking this as a cue for anything. But then again Im not a rapist.

And yes, I think males do think similarly on some things - like for instance, almost all heterosexual males tend to like women who have young/child-like facial features, and fall within a certain hip-waist ratio. What are we supposed to do? Disfigure ourselves?

Being attractive isnt the same as being dressed in a way that may put you at risk from some men in certain situations.

If you truly dont think that there is any increase in risk relating to how one dresses then please just say it. If you think the risk is acceptable for the benefit of a greater good then say it. I, like Max, think women should be given the full facts.

[Rich]

Don't dress like a slut if you want to avoid sexual assault

This is a Conservative lie. The evidence within societies suggests that how you dress makes little difference, but that women who dress like sluts are less likely to get raped. However I do wonder if they have properly controlled for the key variables. Getting blind drunk and going to clubs where a lot men are drunk could well increase the chance of getting rape. The evidence from between societies though is absolutely and completely overwhelming. The more sluttily women dress the more respect women receive. Take Afghanistan, women are just barged off the pavement, and treated without the slightest respect.

[The Clockwork Rat]

The more sluttily women dress the more respect women receive.

It's not really such a direct relationship; look at the women in hip-hop and rap songs for example. Having money rubbed all over and credit cards swiped through your arse crack isn't exactly respectful.

[Quercus Robur]

Rape and sexual assault are slippery issues which is why it may be important not to jump too hard down the throat of this officer. While he was being crude and inaccurate, especially on the subject of rape, he was perhaps trying to get at a basic truth about the phenomenon of sexual assault. It is absolutely the case that 'rapists' look for targets rather than sluttily dressed people, and that sluttily dressed people do not turn people into 'rapists'. However, very few men/women are 'rapists' while the majority of men and women engage in casual sexual assaults on the back of unreciprocated sexual desire - very unusually (partly because it is a very tricky form of rape to demonstrate legally) this type of casual sexual assault becomes a 'rape'. The point about not dressing sluttishly is to avoid unwanted sexual attraction, (by exercising greater control over who you attract) and thus avoid casual sexual assault, but as it happens this method of avoiding such attention doesn't strike me as all that important - more importantly by far is where you are and who you're with. However, this may not be an innocent error as 'dressing sluttily' can serve to justify the rape - giving it undue prominence is suspicious - it may hint at a subconscious belief that rape of immoral women is ok.

So the apology does it for me - further disciplining is probably unnecessary. Do you agree Yiw?

[eugenekop]

Apparently we don't, because rapists still try to chase after us no matter what we wear. But if we tried to play that game anyway, then the new 'conservative' will be established in the minds of males, and a new 'provocative' will emerge as a result.

That's true, and even if it wasn't, the police officer could still be wrong. At worst it was a wrong suggestion. But the feminists somehow frame this as something against women which is ridiculous. To ignore vital safety information for some stupid political correctness is irresponsible and unjustified.

[QatzelOk]

as a man I feel more aroused by a young woman in a very short "fuck-me" skirt than a woman dressed modestly.

As a homo, I am not attracted to women in "fuck me" skirts, but I understand the natural feelings that they provoke.

Many women who wear "fuck me" clothing want to be fucked. So if dressing in a less hard-on-provoking way can prevent avoidable sexual frustration that - if you really don't want to get fucked - isn't going to go anywhere anyway, then this is a case of vain women thinking they can play with and ultimately control men through their instincts.

When you play with controlling other people, you are bound to get hurt at some point. And by dressing in a sexually suggestive way, you are not only inviting your own rape. But you are feeding into the idea that women are just sexual objects waiting to be had.

Your willful ignorance is absolutely abhorrent.

Yeah, we know. Women's slavery to the fashion that men provide them with is totally okay and healthy. It's the natural sexual reaction that men have that is sick and unclean.

It's all about how horrible men are, and I'm glad you started a thread to prove this. Wear a transparent bra and baby dolls on mass tranist, and then get pissed off when men objectify you.

[The Clockwork Rat]

Many women who wear "fuck me" clothing want to be fucked.

Of course it has nothing to do with media influenced concepts of how women should dress on a night out, regardless of their desire to fuck strangers. When my ex went out clubbing, she would dress up to be sexy because it made her feel good, not because she wanted some random bloke to come up and fuck her (she could come home and have me do that). Some blokes may well have interpreted her clothing choice as "fuck me" but that was certainly not what she intended.

Remember, we live in an egoistic society, so people will often dress simply to please themselves as blurry reflections of what they have been told is attractive, not because they want to be fucked by someone else. If someone wants to fuck, their behaviour will demonstrate that. A minority of people may misinterpret that behaviour, but that is not the fault of the first person.

[Pants-of-dog]

...Yiwa's links are suggesting that deliberately attempting to dress significantly more conservatively than your peers actually makes you a more likely target for rapists.

I just wanted to repeat this as people seem to be ignoring it. The facts and evidence seem to show that dressing in a sexy manner will not increase your chances of being raped and may even decrease them.

[Maxim Litvinov]

I just wanted to repeat this as people seem to be ignoring it.

I don't think it's really become the issue.

If what the police officer said in the OP was factually inaccurate, he should have been told off on those grounds. Instead, we have been debating whether or not someone should give what they consider good advice to women about rape risk factors even if it might cause rape victims to feel more culpable for being assaulted.

Yiwa seems to be saying that the information should be withheld - that she'd prefer a situation where a few more women are raped for the sake of making current victims feel less guilty. I don't think this makes sense.