[The Decay of Meaning]

Why are suicide rates so high in Western countries, and so low in undeveloped countries?

[redcarpet]

Consumerist class exploitation, family breakdown and for some gay teenagers homophobia of their peers.

[Political Interest]

Because people have nothing to keep them going. Often things are very secular, no ideology, no pride, nothing. There is absolutely nothing, except work, work and more work. It is a mix of boredom and a lack of any sense of purpose which drives many to suicide.

[Invictus_88]

Forums aren't in depth enough to fully answer this. The matter is very complex, and open to debate.

The answers you get here will tell you more about the poster than about the world.

[Annatar]

I tend to agree with Political Interest. If people have nothing they value more than temselves, personal problems are more likely to lead to suicide.

[Donna]

Female sexual power over the Western male is probably the kernel of most suicides in our society. As we know, most suicides are male, usually the leading cause of death among males aged 25 - 29, second leading cause of death among youth aged 15 - 24 (and leading cause of death for males in this age range), with around 90% of suicides officially attributed to depression; and of course, depression in males aged 15 - 29 might have much to do with sexuality and sexual dysfunction, especially considering that the male sexual peak is disturbingly parallel with the graphical peak of male suicide (ages 17-19). I am using Canadian data, but I imagine it would not be much different elsewhere in the Anglosphere.

[Zyx]

As I frequently cite, this investigation by Durkheim brought about the field of Sociology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durkheim

[edit] Suicide

In Suicide (1897), Durkheim explores the differing suicide rates among Protestants and Catholics, explaining that stronger social control among Catholics results in lower suicide rates. According to Durkheim, Catholic society has normal levels of integration while Protestant society has low levels. There are at least two problems with this interpretation. First, Durkheim took most of his data from earlier researchers, notably Adolph Wagner and Henry Morselli,[19] who were much more careful in generalizing from their own data. Second, later researchers found that the Protestant-Catholic differences in suicide seemed to be limited to German-speaking Europe and thus may always have been the spurious reflection of other factors.[20] Despite its limitations, Durkheim's work on suicide has influenced proponents of control theory, and is often mentioned as a classic sociological study.

Durkheim's study of suicide has been criticized as an example of the logical error termed the ecological fallacy.[21][22] Indeed, Durkheim's conclusions about individual behaviour (e.g. suicide) are based on aggregate statistics (the suicide rate among Protestants and Catholics). This type of inference is often misleading, as is shown by examples of Simpson's paradox.[23]

Durkheim stated that there are four types of suicide:

* Egoistic suicides are the result of a weakening of the bonds that normally integrate individuals into the collectivity: in other words a breakdown of social integration. It is symptomatic of a failure of economic development and division of labour to produce Durkheim's organic solidarity. The remedy lies in social reconstruction. Durkheim refers to this type of suicide as the result of "excessive individuation."

* Altruistic suicides occur in societies with high integration, where individual needs are seen as less important than the society's needs as a whole. As individual interest was not important, Durkheim stated that in an altruistic society there would be little reason for people to commit suicide. He stated one exception; if the individual is expected to kill themselves on behalf of society.

* Anomic suicides are the product of moral deregulation and a lack of definition of legitimate aspirations through a restraining social ethic, which could impose meaning and order on the individual conscience. This is symptomatic of a failure of economic development and division of labour to produce Durkheim's organic solidarity. People do not know where they fit in within their societies. The remedy lies in social reconstruction.

* Fatalistic suicides occur in overly oppressive societies, causing people to prefer to die than to carry on living within their society. This is an extremely rare reason for people to take their own lives, but a good example would be within a prison; people prefer to die than live in a prison with constant abuse.

Durkheim noted the effects of various crises on social aggregates – war, for example, leading to an increase in altruism, economic boom or disaster contributing to anomie.[24]

Invictus_88, what does this tell you about me?

[Order]

Why are suicide rates so high in Western countries, and so low in undeveloped countries?

Do you have the statistics at hand?

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

although if you look at it most of the undeveloped countries have antique data...

[Evilive]

Because people have nothing to keep them going. Often things are very secular, no ideology, no pride, nothing. There is absolutely nothing, except work, work and more work. It is a mix of boredom and a lack of any sense of purpose which drives many to suicide.

PI pretty much nailed it spot on. Also I suspect (from personal experience) that social alienation may play a role.

[Order]

although if you look at it most of the undeveloped countries have antique data...

Indeed. Makes you wonder whether most of the less developed states actually have the capabilities to properly determine the number of suicides. The higher results of the developed countries might simply be a reflection of their ability to gather such data. The statistics also demand a "Why are men such pussies that they have to kill themselves so much more frequently" thread to make some people really angry. :-D

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

Indeed. Makes you wonder whether most of the less developed states actually have the capabilities to properly determine the number of suicides. The higher results of the developed countries might simply be a reflection of their ability to gather such data. The statistics also demand a "Why are men such pussies that they have to kill themselves so much more frequently" thread to make some people really angry. :-D

Also what one isn't considering is just how much more death occurs in an unindustrialized country than does in an industrialized one, and that includes childhood deaths, accidental deaths, deaths from consensual and unconsensual violence, death from illness, etc, all of which are relatively low in the more industrialized countries and thus the "weak" are not weeded out.

[Zyx]

Death from consensual violence?

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

Death from consensual violence?

Fights, including fistfights or gunfights. Sort of like gang activity here. I call it consensual violence when both of the parties involved are criminals.

[Lokakyy]

Why are suicide rates so high in Western countries, and so low in undeveloped countries?

While there might be other reasons, I think it is mostly about statistics - I find it hard to believe that Chinese or Indian statistics can be directly comparable to the most meticulously kept statistics by the European countries.

[Photonmaton]

Female sexual power over the Western male is probably the kernel of most suicides in our society. As we know, most suicides are male, usually the leading cause of death among males aged 25 - 29, second leading cause of death among youth aged 15 - 24 (and leading cause of death for males in this age range), with around 90% of suicides officially attributed to depression; and of course, depression in males aged 15 - 29 might have much to do with sexuality and sexual dysfunction, especially considering that the male sexual peak is disturbingly parallel with the graphical peak of male suicide (ages 17-19). I am using Canadian data, but I imagine it would not be much different elsewhere in the Anglosphere.

This.

The bisexualist chic, courtship (princess mentality), physiology of orgasm, inherent aesthetic superiority of female form, etc all give women as a sex an overwhelming dominance over males in terms of 'sexual power', which translates quite easily into financial manipulation (not to mention demographic superiority in college attendance and graduation) and relationship power dynamics. Speaking just from anecdote, this realization has deteriorated my mental health in the past years and I constantly think of suicide when going over the complete uselessness and structural anti-male sentiments in society (I know there are anti-female, culture, race sentiments that may or may not overshadow the 'anti-whitemale' flavor but it remains a significant detriment to my life nonetheless). Internalizing the idea of having some original sin for being white coupled with the complete sublimation of American 'white' culture into consumerist, liberal Protestantism only adds to the alienation.

So yes, I feel like an obsolete and inferior genetic fossil who is vilified as evil, stupid, and guilty of everything wrong in the world.

A bit melodramatic to some, yes, but this is actually how my brain thinks, without any exaggeration.

[Zyx]

So yes, I feel like an obsolete and inferior genetic fossil who is vilified as evil, stupid, and guilty of everything wrong in the world.

Let me guess . . . you're . . . [Don't say it Zyx!]

Photonmaton, you speak of this:

http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=102167

Essentially, society promulgates a mythical norm which hardly any of us fit in, so we define ourselves according to that mythical image. Your response to the mythical image is self-deprecation, whereas others respond through hatred towards people unfitting this norm, still others just adapt the norm and work hard toward it, failing their whole life but trying.

Essentially, your feelings are due to a fetishization of something impossible, a photoshopped life if you will. You should really just turn off your television.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

^ That's pretty true, good post.

[Socinus]

Forums aren't in depth enough to fully answer this. The matter is very complex, and open to debate.

Which is what forums are perfect for!

I think we need to consider that we THINK of suicide rates being low in under-developed countries because the methods in which that kind of information is gathered is rather haphazard because it's a low priority. Also, suicides may not be reported or recorded as such by an over-burdened medical staff or by family members who dont want their kin remembered that way.

That said, I think it warrants a closer examination.

First off, who is the most likely age group to commit suicide?

15-24 years old.

So why is this?

I think its because we have a society that doesn't have a place for this group of people.

When you're a teenager, society doesnt have an expectation for you other than for you to get in trouble. We put teenagers in a real limbo by often treating them like children or criminals then being angry when they actually act that way. Teens are also the target of MASSIVE amounts of marketing and this marketing is much more direct than with adults; it promises happiness and social acceptance (something all teens want) if you buy this or that and after a while teens start catching on that that really isnt true. Add that to the fact that our society really doesnt tolerate teenagers or what they go through very well and you've got a surefire method to make sure some of them off themselves.

As you get older, you start realizing that a lot of what you learned as a kid was wrong and that the world really isnt a kind place. You learn just how crappy people can behave and that's extremely disheartening. Also, once you start working, you may feel a certain futility in it because you never get ahead, and even if you are getting ahead you may not see any point to getting ahead.

I think a big part of it is our methods of marketing. We try and teach people that happiness is attainable through purchase and unhappiness comes when we start seeing through that.

[Zyx]

15-24 years old.

I stopped reading here. Tell me if I should continue.

This isn't true.

Whereas my sociology would have made sense for this age group and it's probably true that this age group most considers suicide, the elderly are the most suicidal. Look it up--I have to catch a bus.