[yiwahikanak]

The issue of gender roles came up in the intersex thread, but I didn't want to hijack that one, so here we go. A thread all about parenting, and the formation of gender roles!

What parents teach their children has an enormous impact on the formation of gender stereotypes in their children.

...parents distort their perceptions of their own children in gender role stereotypic activities such as math and sports, that the child's gender affects parents' causal attributions for their children's performance in gender role stereotypic activities, and that these perceptual biases influence the children's own self-perceptions and activity choices

This does not often seem to be intentional, but rather simply an effect of parenting how one was his, or herself parented...along with how you think you should play with girls, versus playing with boys (as parents).

Many will argue that gender roles in children develop based on biological differences, and that socialisation has little to do with it, or merely reinforces what is biologically true.

It would be nice to have a debate on this issue, using facts (PLEASE!) rather than merely opinions on the subject. Anecdotal evidence is great, but studies are better. My OP is clearly biased towards one point of view, and I acknowledge that up front, as I am arguing gender roles are more a function of socialisation than biology.

[yiwahikanak]

Hmmm.

Let me try this:

Biology doesn't determine gender roles...forcing kids to 'act like girls' and 'act like boys' create gender roles!



Ah? Ah? Takers?

[Thunderhawk]

My primary source of information on this matter comes from Why Gender Matters by Dr. Sax and from first had experiance as a kid and as a teen around some kids. Forcing certain gender roles is foolish, but then so is ignoring biology and existing characteristics.

[yiwahikanak]

My response to that is, enforcing any sort of gender role is foolish...that includes pushing tonka trucks on girls and sparkly tights on boys (if they want them, that's a different story)! Giving children the space they need to become the people they are should be the primary goal of parents. It's more active than that though...when others attempt to force gender roles on your children, you need to discuss that with your kids. If someone takes a spiderman toy away from your daughter because it's a 'boys toy', talk to you kids about the fact that some people believe these things, without really having any good reason for it.

[Thunderhawk]

If the child watches TV they will likely be exposed to gender roles that they will pick up. If they socialize/play with other children or adults that have already adopted certain gender roles then the children will pick up on that too. Giving a girl a spider man toy or allowing boys to play with barbies is one thing, but teaching them that they dont have to follow the socially normal behaviour is another, especially since that will read as "you can be odd, different and thus picked-on.. if you want"

[yiwahikanak]

Okay, so how to you combat that?

I don't have television, that's one way I deal with it. That doesn't shield them from the world, however. So the discussions about gender roles and people's (often unthinking) beliefs about gender roles is ongoing. I see it as a process of teaching critical thinking skills. You also need to be teaching your kids to deal with being picked on anyway.

[Thunderhawk]

I suspect it is a multigeneraltional issue. It would take a few generations of adults dismissing gender roles completely in all social media for real gender indifference in society to exist. But there will be those who stick to the old way and will force it on others by some media or another, so it comes down to minimizing that contact and maximizing variety - IMO.


On that note, I suppose I should make it clear: I am not for gender equality, as I do not believe the genders nor people are all equal. I am however for gender indifference in situations where it shouldnt matter.

[yiwahikanak]

I'd say that's pretty much my position, but before I agree too much, when DO you think it matters?

[Thunderhawk]

There are various medications that affect men and women differently, so I believe discrimination should apply there. I believe physical/chemical castration should be a tool for dealing with male rapists, even though I dont know of any female equivilant to castration.

In cases where parental leave for child birth is short (say 1 month), I believe it should all go to the mother (who gave birth) rather then be split along with another parent. No other cases come to mind.

[Agent S]

Hmmm.
Let me try this:
Biology doesn't determine gender roles...forcing kids to 'act like girls' and 'act like boys' create gender roles!
Ah? Ah? Takers?

I'm a bit late on the uptake but read recently about a woman who has managed to conceal the gender of her child, who is now about 4 years old. The child does have a physical gender (i.e. wasn't born intersex), but this can't be ascertained from the name (it's something like Charlie) and the child doesn't have gender-specific clothes or toys. People who meet the child know him/her simply by name and don't know whether they are a boy or girl. The mother wants her child to establish their own identity, and not be coerced into conforming to a particular pattern of behaviour and expectations. There are some practical problems, and the mother realises these will increase once the child is attending school, but is keen to allow her child their freedom for as long as possible.

What do you think of her decision?

[Ter]

I don't see the problem...

Papa goes to work and Mama is the housewife.


Ter

[yiwahikanak]

I'm a bit late on the uptake but read recently about a woman who has managed to conceal the gender of her child, who is now about 4 years old. The child does have a physical gender (i.e. wasn't born intersex), but this can't be ascertained from the name (it's something like Charlie) and the child doesn't have gender-specific clothes or toys. People who meet the child know him/her simply by name and don't know whether they are a boy or girl. The mother wants her child to establish their own identity, and not be coerced into conforming to a particular pattern of behaviour and expectations. There are some practical problems, and the mother realises these will increase once the child is attending school, but is keen to allow her child their freedom for as long as possible.

What do you think of her decision?

Interesting...school will have a massive impact. I imagine the child is not being exposed to television or other media, which is rife with gender stereotypes.

I tried to do this as much as possible with my own children, without concealing their sex. I find a lot of it involves battling stereotypes that other people promote. Like telling them, no, you can too play with a spiderman toy. There is no such thing as 'girl toys' and boy toys' only "what you want to play with and what you don't".

I'm sure she gets no end of abuse from adults.

I don't see the problem...

Papa goes to work and Mama is the housewife.


Ter

[Kman]

Yiwa why are you trying to create an unnatural situation? Women have boobs for a reason, they are designed to take care of children.

[Pants-of-dog]

Males can also lactate.

[Ter]

Yiwa why are you trying to create an unnatural situation? Women have boobs for a reason, they are designed to take care of children.

Kman, beware, you have no idea what we are dealing with here.
I am trying to humour her.


Ter

[Aesthetic]

Yiwa why are you trying to create an unnatural situation? Women have boobs for a reason, they are designed to take care of children.

I second Ter's . Is this another version of "weather vs. climate" found in "sex vs. gender?"

[yiwahikanak]

It's pretty simple. There are certain social roles assigned to those who are biologically female and those who are biologically male. Some of the roles are similar, and some are quite different.

Children do not necessarily know what those roles are until they are taught them. Studies, linked to in the OP, have shown that these roles are not inherent and rely greatly on how parents interact with their children and what they teach them is 'proper' behaviour for girls, and boys.

Those of you wishing to argue that certain roles are based on biology could perhaps introduce some detailed arguments that could be addressed, rather than merely stating your opinions...that'd be great thanks.

Kman, beware, you have no idea what we are dealing with here.
I am trying to humour her.


Ter

I think you mean 'poke her with red hot irons of pissed offedness'

[U184]

yiwahikanak, lets run with all you have said, and step it up a notch. How does all this work with Homosexual families who are raising Heterosexual children?

[Aesthetic]

I'm sure she gets no end of abuse from adults.

Do you think there is a happy medium that pragmatically parents can try to achieve? That's obviously what you're doing. Honestly, it seems like children will be picked on no matter what their problems are... if it's not "being a sissy" or "being a dyke" then it'll be glasses, hair, clothes, teeth, name, or even a hundred things that parents have no control over. With that in mind, some sort of gender-role freedom is certainly beneficial. Assuming that your (or any) children are free from oppressive advertising found on TV (and cereal boxes!), have you tried using somewhat gender-neutral toys? E.g. a wooden playset obviously does not lean one way or another, nor do trains, or plush toys... etc.

[U184]

I would argue that they do, have you heard the term GI Joe-ing the boys and Barbie-ing the girls?