[QatzelOk]

Notice the physical differences between the castes of ant

Hierarchy

The modern industrial society is made up of thousands of different roles and specialties.

Many modern organizations - like the military and large factories - require a rigid social hierarchy in order to thrive. Likewise, many economic institutions and other institutions imitate and modify the hierarchy that can be found in battle, and on the shop floor.

But is this natural? Or is it a huge source of alienation?

Was mankind hardwired to take orders and perform tasks in a ritual and mindless way?

[Fasces]

Where did hierarchy come from, assuming it is unnatural?

[QatzelOk]

Where did hierarchy come from, assuming it is unnatural?

Here, you are suggesting that everything is natural.

This reduces the meaning of the word down to zero. Nice work.

But what about addressing the issue in the OP without that kind of semantic cop out. Can you do it?

Is the current level of social hierarchy in modern industrial societies natural? Or is the artifice of it actually killing us and making us socially sick?

[Fasces]

Here, you are suggesting that everything is natural.

No, I am suggesting social behaviors are natural - at least until such a time when cybernetic implants are responsible for the bulk of human thinking.

Can you do it?

No, because you have not defined unnatural. If hierarchy developed, it must have done so for a reason, especially if that development runs contrary to what would be natural human social development. I am asking you to provide that reason. In the absence of a hypothesis, however, I would like to appeal to Occam's Razor and suggest that yes, hierarchy is a natural development.

The lack of physical manifestations of hierarchy is absolutely meaningless. No such physical differences manifest themselves in mammals, to my knowledge, or, more to the point, primates.



Which is the alpha gorilla, Qatz?

[Chill]

No mammal species I know do not adopt hierarchy. So it's in the blood I guess.
But we overcome some of our natural characters and enter into the era of civilization. Natural things, if not good in social value, do not have to exist.

[Nattering Nabob]

Is hierarchy natural among humans?

Perhaps not but then neither is agriculture natural among humans...

Just because something is not natural does not mean it is not beneficial...

[QatzelOk]

Just because something is not natural does not mean it is not beneficial...

Are you sure about this?

Is pollution beneficial?

How about climate change?

A lot of British wine growers will be able to have a healthier crop if the planet warms, after all. Isn't this kind of destruction "beneficial?"

Or do we no longer understand "benefit" from a global perspective because we've been turned into selfish and neurotic parasites by (unnatural) media?

Or is this beneficial?

[ThePublicOpinions]

Is it natural to wipe one's ass? Is it natural to shield oneself from the elements? We have advanced as a species; must we let ourselves be shackled by nature?

[Wolfman]

The issue breaks down like this:

Qatz found something he doesn't like (hierarchy).
Qatz wants to find a way to make it seem terrible, by claiming it's unnatural
Qatz refuses to explain how it would have developed if it is unnatural
Qatz claims that because somethings are unnatural are destructive, hierarchy must be destructive
Qatz has yet to show that hierarchy is in anyway a bad thing

I believe the overall problem with this thread is Qatz.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes and no.

Hierarchy is natural, but it is not the only factor gioverning human behaviour.

Hierarchy is also not natural, as often we are unnaturaly forced into positions that put us subservient to people who would not be our superiors if we were still primates.

Also, there are unnatural ways of creating non-heirarchical behaviour, like organised collective behaviour.

And finally, and most importantly (in my opinion) there are completely natural instincts in us that want to get rid of hierarchy.

[Typhoon]

I would go as far to say that all social organisms form hierarcies in terms of the deleagation of roles (even if at purely a sexual level), this is not inheriently a bad thing as it allows us to effieciently organise our society. So in responce to the OP, yes it is natural and I would imagine hardwired to some respect.

That said hierarchy does not by nessesity mean that a role is benificial or will always be benificial or not open to abuse.

[grassroots1]

Is it natural to wipe one's ass? Is it natural to shield oneself from the elements? We have advanced as a species; must we let ourselves be shackled by nature?

Whether or not we like it, human advancement and growth is constrained by environmental limits. We need a re-definition of our priorities (and a more holistic and universal understanding of human existence, like Qatz is promoting) if we hope to effectively and cooperatively confront this problem that we all face. Competition will drive us ever faster into a brick wall, using cooperation hopefully we will be able to break that wall down, and continue on in a sustainable fashion.

[Daktoria]

Where did hierarchy come from, assuming it is unnatural?

It came from that very question.

Even naturally speaking, we live in a 4 dimensional world. Just because multiple entities are in different locations does not necessarily mean one entity's special for existing in a certain location compared to the other.

Likewise, vertical relationships are not the only possibilities. Horizontal, inward-outward, and sequential relationships are just as possible.

Perhaps vertical relationships are natural, but that doesn't mean they're necessary.

Also, if we relegate the definition of relationships to comparative positions, then we still haven't yet realized why positions themselves are important.

For example, hierarchy by itself does not explain the value of being a master or a slave. It only shows they can exist, but it doesn't show why they must exist.

If you rotate your perspective on hierarchy by 90 degrees, the master and slave become equitable. Rotate it 90 degrees in a different direction, and one or the other doesn't appear at all.

Let time pass by, and they might even switch positions altogether. Hierarchy doesn't explain why it must be the correct perspective.

Is it natural to wipe one's ass? Is it natural to shield oneself from the elements? We have advanced as a species; must we let ourselves be shackled by nature?

Spot on.

[Beren]

Is the current level of social hierarchy in modern industrial societies natural?

Obviously not. How could modern industrial societies be considered natural?

[Takkon]

No such physical differences manifest themselves in mammals, to my knowledge, or, more to the point, primates.

The mating season of the mandrill takes place from June to October which is when sexual swellings occur.[21] They breed every two years. When breeding, a male will follow and guard a female in estrous. Adult males exist in two different forms; the brightly colored and "fatted" dominant males and the paler and "non-fatted" subordinate males. Both males exchange in mating but only the dominant males are able to sire offspring.[16] Gaining dominance results in an increase testicular volume, reddening of sexual skin on the face and genitalia and heightened secretion of the sternal cutaneous gland.[22] When a males loses dominance the reverse happens, although the blue ridges remain brightened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrill#S ... production

Really it only proves your point, you just took it one step too far: there is no "natural" amount of hierarchy because it's different for each species.

[Paradigm]

Are you sure about this?

Is pollution beneficial?

How about climate change?

A lot of British wine growers will be able to have a healthier crop if the planet warms, after all. Isn't this kind of destruction "beneficial?"

Or do we no longer understand "benefit" from a global perspective because we've been turned into selfish and neurotic parasites by (unnatural) media?

Or is this beneficial?

Clearly no one has benefited from you having internet access. I recommend you shut it off and go live in the woods somewhere to gather nuts and berries while annoying the squirrels with your tangential rants about modernity.

[QatzelOk]

we are unnaturaly forced into positions that put us subservient to people who would not be our superiors if we were still primates

I think this is closest to my own position.

Certain forms of human hierarchy are natural, but these are very purpose-specific (letting the largest male in the family screw your wife, for example, or taking the largest males on a hunting expedition).

But the modern hierarchy is unnatural in that it is NOT based on criteria that helps us adapt to the environment around us in the long run.

It's all based on short-term status-symbol collection.

there is no "natural" amount of hierarchy because it's different for each species.

Exactly. We need to compare our modern human hierarchy with pre-neolithic human hierarchy to find out if it's natural (meaning instinct-based rather than text-based).

Obviously not. How could modern industrial societies be considered natural?

Above, Fasces suggests that everything is natural because... everything comes from nature. But I firmly disagree. For example, the behavior of cattle that live their entire lives in a box... is NOT natural behavior, I would argue.)

Clearly no one has benefited from you having internet access. I recommend you shut it off and go live in the woods somewhere to gather nuts and berries

Before you can have your George Washingtons, you need to eat all your Paul Reveres.

[Takkon]

Exactly. We need to compare our modern human hierarchy with pre-neolithic human hierarchy to find out if it's natural (meaning instinct-based rather than text-based).

How far back do you want to go? I mean between 200k-9.5k ybp, a lot of stuff changed among humans.

[Cookie Monster]

Hierarchies are not a bad thing. It allowed the rapid expansion of human societies ever since the introduction of agriculture. Also, much of our arts are based on hierarchies (of concepts, principles, laws, rules, etc).

[Beren]

The issue is what kind of hierarchy we should live in.