[Frollein]

Perhaps you shouldn't give out citizenships like candy, then.

Remember that photo where the Pope washed the feet of a Muslim? He thought he was doing some Christian symbolic ritual - the Muslims saw the head of the Christian church humiliating himself and submitting to Islam. I don't have to explain the symbolic connotations of soles of feet and shoes in those cultures, do I?

So what you see and what the Muslims see may be worlds apart. You may want to think about the messages you're sending to them.

[noemon]

She is born and bred a Greek.

[Frollein]

She is born and bred a Greek.

If she's wearing a hijab with all its moralistic/ideological connotations, she's obviously not "bred a Greek."

[noemon]

So you're saying a 16 year old girl should fight with her parents to prove her Greekness?, when the standard for flag-bearers is to excel and she officially has all the standards.

[Frollein]

So you're saying a 16 year old girl should fight with her parents to prove her Greekness?

How would that constitute a fight with her parents over her Greekness? Are you saying that not wearing a hijab would be cause for a fight with her parents over which cultural (and contingent with that, ideological) system they should give preference to? Gee, are you saying that she isn't "bred a Greek" after all? Because if she was, there wouldn't exist any competing cultural attitudes in her house. There would only be one culture, one set of values, and the hijab wouldn't be a part of it.

[The Sabbaticus]

The hijab is a symbol of Islamism and political Islam. In Western societies it has also come to stand for self-segregation, 'us versus them' polarization, cultural regression, community disintegration, neighbourhood dilapidation and social strife.

[Frollein]

women had head scarf in the UK just as women in Iran or Turkey right up to the 50s

And I guess any Western woman of the fifties who wasn't wearing one was regarded as a slut? And did Jesus tell the women to cover themselves, too?

She is obviously here because her heritage of wanting, finding and branding a group of people as untermensch has got new directions to cultivate its self, now that she's found a climate which allows her to do it freely.

That's a rule 3 violation right there. Funny how the racist is accusing me of racism because of my heritage.

As for the untermenschen: the Germans are "a race of dogs," according to Mr. Karabulut of the Turkish Parents union. But in his case, it's probably really a spiritual thing.

[noemon]

By bred I meant in Greece, but her household is not culturally Greek obviously, she is the first Greek in her family though her environment clearly is.

Look I don't like hijabs, but yeah I assume her parents and she not being an adult have some control over her clothing and especially the hijab, perhaps she likes wearing it perhaps not, I don't know and you don't either, the fact is she won the honour fair and square. I am proud with the fact that she and her parents allowed her to honour the Flag with the Cross when they as good "Muslims" they could have snubbed it, and that in my view would have been the dishonour. They put a Greek tradition above their own religious sensitivities. Things like that could end up in getting her killed by crazy Muslims, they know it but they did it anyway. She could have come up with a million excuses to avoid carrying the cross, even if she said "I'm Muslim, can't really carry that thing", we wouldn't know anything ourselves.

[Frollein]

By bred I meant in Greece, but her household is not culturally Greek obviously, she is the first Greek in her family though her environment clearly is.

If her family is not culturally Greek, how can she be and still wear a hijab, unless a hijab is suddenly part of Greek culture? She's not "integrated," and pretending that she is won't change that.

I assume her parents and she not being an adult have some control over her clothing and especially the hijab,

Yeah, that's what I'm assuming, too, but why do you assume that this parental control and conditioning stops at a headscarf?

I am proud with the fact that she and her parents allowed her to honour the Flag

Yes, it was a picture that appealed to emotions, not the viewers' brains, and it obviously worked. I don't know if you caught what I wrote above about the Pope's feet washing stunt, since we posted so rapidly, but images can always be interpreted differently depending on the viewer, and I bet I'm not the only one who interpreted it differently from you. Muslims feel superior to the unbelievers, do you really think they'd see the girl "subdued" by the flag? Or do they see her as being the first to capture it?

[noemon]

Muslims take honour, flags and crosses very seriously. Putting a cross above you is serious haram in Islam, there were and possibly still exist many laws against crosses in Muslim countries, honourably parading a cross in Islam? That is some serious shit. They understand it as I do because that is how it actually is.

[Frollein]

Sure. I guess that's why so many people went "mental" over it, as you put it. But whatever, Muslims in Greece are Greece's problem - at least until you foist them on us.

[noemon]

:) Sure. I guess that's why so many people went "mental" over it, as you put it. But whatever, Muslims in Greece are Greece's problem - at least until you foist them on us.

People being silly is not an argument. My rationale is solid, if you think about it without blinders.

[Potemkin]

Yes, it was a picture that appealed to emotions, not the viewers' brains, and it obviously worked. I don't know if you caught what I wrote above about the Pope's feet washing stunt, since we posted so rapidly, but images can always be interpreted differently depending on the viewer, and I bet I'm not the only one who interpreted it differently from you. Muslims feel superior to the unbelievers, do you really think they'd see the girl "subdued" by the flag? Or do they see her as being the first to capture it?

And therein is the crux (literally, in this case) of the reason why the 'multi-kulti' model is integration has failed. 'Multi-kulti' is based on the idea that the immigrants be allowed to retain their own traditional cultures and values and ideological Weltanschauung, as opposed to relinquishing these things in the 'melting pot' model of integration (which has its own problems, as I said earlier). The problem with different cultural traditions is that they tend to be incommensurate with each other; they cannot be reconciled into a single society. People from differing cultural traditions will look at the same event and they will see different things. To paraphrase Einstein, our ideologies tell us what we can observe. Our experiences are not merely coloured by ideology and culture, they are to a great extent created by our ideology and culture. This is not usually a problem if everyone more or less shares the same culture, but it can create serious problems if very different cultural traditions coexist side-by-side in the same society. Ultimately, these cultural traditions will be competing against each other as the 'correct' way of experiencing the world. It is, after all, one of the pre-requisites for having a culture that you believe it is the only correct culture; this sense of the rightness of one's own culture is both inevitable and necessary. To lose that sense of rightness, or to give it up, is to lose or give up one's culture itself.

[Tewodros III]

The one lost a war, the other is currently bringing it to Europe. What is your argument again?

Tewodros, the hijab has become the symbol of Islam, or do you see any woman in Saudia Arabia or Iran etc. without one on the streets? And Muslim women in Europe have begun wearing it as an ideological statement, declaring their support of Islam's ideological demands - twenty years ago, you didn't see young girls with it, only the fat old grannies.

Is it support for Islamist or support for the right of being muslims? Again muslims been in europe for centuries and have followed their laws, again Europe should have preserve the Ottoman Caliph.

[noemon]

The thing is there are still states that enforce assimilation into their own culture which is neither multi-culti nor melting pot, it is "stealing" human beings from one side to another.

Some states have slack policies and rely on their soft cultural power, states like Britain, US, Canada, however Greece like Israel and Turkey enforce their identity onto people through complicated state procedures and also cultural norms by simply being geared towards it. The UK relies on its openness, wealth and Beatles for example, Greece has her own Greek Beatles but something extra, the state as well behind that effort and the procedures are subtle but they are there.

I would say Turkey and Israel are even harder towards that effort but it's all a matter of relative volume and the needs of every state. Greece at some point was 99% Greek in 1990 that is. This did not simply happen out of ethnic-cleansing during the wars with Turkey but also assimilation, hard and strong one at that.

This girl came upon a dilemma and she was forced to make a choice one that will bring her closer or drive her further away and that is possibly the third of many others to follow in her life, until she completely jumps ship and sees no more dilemmas but acts like a native or a stranger and things turn black & white, either way inside or outside. Dilemmas which no longer exist in the UK or other liberally advanced & progressive European states allowing multi-culti to run rampant.

[Frollein]

Is it support for Islamist or support for the right of being muslims?

Where's the difference? Don't tell me you believe in this Western chimera of "Islamism." There is only Islam. And the "right of being Muslim" doesn't just mean the right to bang your head on the ground five times a day. It also consists of Sharia law and delusions of supremacy that manifest as rape of non-Muslim women and murder of non-Muslim men.

Again muslims been in europe for centuries and have followed their laws

They did as long as they were in the minority and as long as the majority's ideology didn't cater to their sense of entitlement. That has changed recently, and now they show their true colors.

[noemon]

You did not answer the question Frollein, if you wish to see more policies towards that effect?

[Frollein]

You did not answer the question Frollein, if you wish to see more policies towards that effect?

That's because I couldn't figure out what you meant. Policies towards which effect?

[noemon]

Similar to the ones I mentioned, like national parades, dancing lessons at school of the traditional dances of the ethnos, a state subtly oiled to work better for co-nationals and co-religious people, and there are more I am forgetting right now. All there to pro-actively push foreigners to choose between their own identity and the host national identity as well as reinforce national identity into their own which then become missionaries of that identity working as peer-pressure towards foreigners at schools and so on and forth. This kind of policy works against multi-culti by making it harder for foreign people to form enclaves.

This subject is one of the most pressing subjects concerning governments in Europe right now but I see no discussion about it neither here nor outside of PoFo, despite my attempts to bring it up in here. It's alike nobody wants to talk about it.

This is all nationalism, the very definition of it.

[Frollein]

Similar to the ones I mentioned, like national parades, dancing lessons at school of the traditional dances of the ethnos, a state subtly oiled to work better for co-nationals and co-religious people, and there are more I am forgetting right now. All there to pro-actively push foreigners to choose between their own identity and the host national identity as well as reinforce national identity into their own which then become missionaries of that identity working as peer-pressure towards foreigners at schools and so on and forth. This kind of policy works against multi-culti by making it harder for foreign people to form enclaves.

Sure, I'm all for policies that force foreigners to assimilate, I just don't think that dancing your anthem at school will do anything towards that goal. The first step would be to crack down on the criminal networks that have formed over the past decades, and to expel any criminal foreigners. Stop building mosques, cut the financial umbilical cord to Turkey and Saudi Arabia, dissolve all those NGO players like Ditib, etc.

We'd need a different government for that. Or a civil war.