[Conscript]

At some point it became cool to pretend to be morally superior to SJWs p, and to blame them for all the world's ills, always without any evidence to support the claim.

You know you are hitting a nerve when a bigot calls you that.

It's because social justice is a bourgeois fad and pretty much riding the coattails of the liberalism, tolerance, and altruism of Westerners while preaching how bad they are. They're quickly running out of it, though, it only took a couple years of that shit to bring the far right back

[mikema63]

Social justice is so poorly defined as to be useless as a term. It's used by the right to put literally every social value, group, and person who is on the left into the same pot so you can smear them all by posting a video of some idiot college student who says something stupid.

Thus everything from a moderate democrat who doesn't think gays are demons to a 17 year old otherkin who demands we refer to them as a shmeem are the same sort of evil.

In reality right wingers want to hate on 80% of the rest of humanity and treat them like dirt without having anyone comment on what an asshole they are being.

[Pants-of-dog]

It's because social justice is a bourgeois fad and pretty much riding the coattails of the liberalism, tolerance, and altruism of Westerners while preaching how bad they are. They're quickly running out of it, though, it only took a couple years of that shit to bring the far right back

Right. Just a bourgeois fad.

It has nothing to do with racism and sexism and homophobia.

Because those things are not real, right?

[MB.]

Are we still talking about SJWs at all? I was convinced that this was a fucking joke.

Yes, as am I. What's really going on here is that everyone is bored because their lives have no meaning, also the world is doomed and we all know it. Thus, literally everyone is a victim because there is no meaning in anything anymore, and someday in the near or distant future a cataclysm will destroy civilization. This cataclysm will be either ironically self inflicted by our own hedonistic excesses, or caused by some typically trivial stupid spat about national borders or something. Either way, the utter inevitability of this combined with its guaranteed pointlessness only serves to illustrate how futile the human struggle is these days. Nihilistic consumerism is the default human condition, there's nothing left except to argue about your gender pronoun.

And now there are neo-fascists and Donald Trump is US President, so we've clearly reached rock bottom.

Also here is the actual debate:

You'll notice that Professor Moran victimizes herself literally with the first thing she says, asking for sympathy for her laryngitis. For the record, Bill C-16 is utterly meaningless and symbolic but otherwise clearly harmless unless you are a bigot, or someone literally intending to commit a hate crime based on gender (why would anyone care?)

This enactment amends the Canadian Human Rights Act to add gender identity and gender expression to the list of prohibited grounds of discrimination.

The enactment also amends the Criminal Code to extend the protection against hate propaganda set out in that Act to any section of the public that is distinguished by gender identity or expression and to clearly set out that evidence that an offence was motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on gender identity or expression constitutes an aggravating circumstance that a court must take into consideration when it imposes a sentence.

The University of Toronto should feel ashamed for capitalizing on this controversy. Universities always jump at the opportunity to hold these debates like juvenile salesmen keen to close their first deal. The university- a business- is just banking on yet another "controversy" that can hopefully excite students and increase enrolments.

[Rich]

Thus, literally everyone is a victim because there is no meaning in anything anymore,

Hardly a new phenomena, Caesar, Brutus, Cato, the Confederate plantation owners and King John's Barons all seemed to see themselves as the victims of terrible and insufferable injustice. I mean even the murdering raping, thieving, terrorising, enslaving imperialists that were the proto Muslim conquerors managed to rationalise themselves as the victims of injustice.

[Conscript]

Right. Just a bourgeois fad.

It has nothing to do with racism and sexism and homophobia.

Because those things are not real, right?

I think these things are mostly non-issues and examples of them are either very faulty (e.g. rates of black men being killed by police) or the epitome of first world problems, like preferred pronouns.

The fact is the Western world is the most tolerant, altruistic, and liberal civilization in the world. It's what gave birth to the left, it came to tolerance on its own, without revolution. White people are some of the least nationalistic and ethnically bound of all humanity.

Social justice is a bunch of privileged middle class kids wanting civil rights 2.0 to have their moment in history, who spent far too much time in front of a humanities professor instead of reading books and forming their own opinions. The entire movement comes across as a bunch of left liberal cranks selling bullshit ideological products to fix thought crime-tier issues that, unlike class, will never change (like perceptions of fatness). They're heirs of the new left desperately digging for crap to hold up as a legitimate issue, meanwhile they live in a true safe space where they never talk about the rest of the world and take refuge in culture war after feeling demoralized from the late 20th century and the triumph of neoliberal economics. They hide in humanities and refuse to touch the economics department, which is what the left actually needs to fucking do.

So yea, bourgeois fad. These are the kind of people that will refuse to oppose TPP with the rest of the left because 'I don't care about the jobs of privileged white male workers'. They're nothing more than trendy race-obsessed left liberals looking for issues to couch themselves in after past generations of liberal students took care of all the real shit. You know I'm right.

[Pants-of-dog]

In other words, I called it.

You, the white hetero male have decided for all people of,colour, all women, and all LGBT people that their struggles do not matter, and that their entire movement towards equality is just a fad for white hetero middle class males.

Not at all like certain white hetero middle class men who are supposedly Marxists. Theirs is the real struggle. Right?

[Godstud]

Wanting equality, while denouncing racism, and sexism, does not make you a SJW. This makes you a principled human with empathy, and compassion.

[Conscript]

In other words, I called it.

You, the white hetero male have decided for all people of,colour, all women, and all LGBT people that their struggles do not matter, and that their entire movement towards equality is just a fad for white hetero middle class males.

Not at all like certain white hetero middle class men who are supposedly Marxists. Theirs is the real struggle. Right?

God I hate liberals

You don't know what I am, and how you presume such and suppose my interests radically differ on the matter of equality is 1) why trump won and 2) why there's renewed calls on the left (whether it's bernie, WSWS, or robert reich) to drop the identity politics emphasis, damning people for things they were born with and removing individual agency, and start talking economics again

Also yes, in 2016 in a Western country you are not 'oppressed' on the basis of anything that can be fixed within the system and made compatible with liberal values (meaning literally everything up until class because that violates property rights). And yes, the issue of economics is qualitatively different since it encompasses everyone and will actually accomplish change if you (like a marxist) believe it's the foundation for a political superstructure (and the inequality it defends). This is contrast to something like bill C-16 which is just virtue signalling in an illiberal fashion, meaning pointlessly agitating the right without accomplishing any shred of equality. It turns libertarians and the honest moderate people such as Dr Jordan Peterson into enemies of political correctness, and your stupid tirades against me despite there being no real difference between you and I other than my refusal to self-flagellate makes me one as well.

So yea, bourgeois liberal fad originating from disconnected middle class center lefties disproportionately in campuses and cities that (like hillary) failed to talk economics/neoliberal globalization and pointlessly pushed the white working class to the nationalists. Thanks for keeping the left irrelevant for another generation, good luck in the culture war. I'll be sitting around waiting for us to talk about class again.

Oh and by the way, there's a reason some parts of the anti racist, anti fascist, feminist, anti colonial struggles were regarded as intersecting with the socialist left. It's because their issues aren't on the same plane, that doesn't mean inferior, but their gains are ultimately connected to and dependent upon that of working class people because oppression is ultimately economic. When you savage that connection, eschew labor, and desire change within the system (but in a way that pisses off classical liberals and the white working class) because marginalists made you retreat from economics into culture war, you get postmodern SJWs. Both a dead end and works as a splitter of the left and working class, people who get a sense of right side of history not from capitalism's inevitable downfall, but from demographic change derived from capitalism.

Hitler beat class with race, so maybe you should stop saying 'fuck white people'

[Godstud]

No one is saying, "fuck white people.". What people are saying is not to say, "Fuck blacks/gays/women!". Kapeeesh?

[Pants-of-dog]

God I hate liberals

Tour feelings are not an argument.

Also, You don't know what I am.

You don't know what I am, and how you presume such and suppose my interests radically differ on the matter of equality is 1) why trump won and 2) why there's renewed calls on the left (whether it's bernie, WSWS, or robert reich) to drop the identity politics emphasis, damning people for things they were born with and removing individual agency, and start talking economics again

I see. You think an immigrant living in Canada was part of the reason Trump won. Lol.

There are also calls from the left to keep fighting for racial equality, fighting againgst sexism and homophobia, and generally being a moral person.

Also yes, in 2016 in a Western country you are not 'oppressed' on the basis of anything that can be fixed within the system and made compatible with liberal values (meaning literally everything up until class because that violates property rights). And yes, the issue of economics is qualitatively different since it encompasses everyone and will actually accomplish change if you (like a marxist) believe it's the foundation for a political superstructure (and the inequality it defends). This is contrast to something like bill C-16 which is just virtue signalling in an illiberal fashion, meaning pointlessly agitating the right without accomplishing any shred of equality. It turns libertarians and the honest moderate people such as Dr Jordan Peterson into enemies of political correctness, and your stupid tirades against me despite there being no real difference between you and I other than my refusal to self-flagellate makes me one as well.

So yea, bourgeois liberal fad originating from disconnected middle class center lefties disproportionately in campuses and cities that (like hillary) failed to talk economics/neoliberal globalization and pointlessly pushed the white working class to the nationalists. Thanks for keeping the left irrelevant for another generation, good luck in the culture war. I'll be sitting around waiting for us to talk about class again.

Oh and by the way, there's a reason some parts of the anti racist, anti fascist, feminist, anti colonial struggles were regarded as intersecting with the socialist left. It's because their issues aren't on the same plane, that doesn't mean inferior, but their gains are ultimately connected to and dependent upon that of working class people because oppression is ultimately economic. When you savage that connection, eschew labor, and desire change within the system (but in a way that pisses off classical liberals and the white working class) because marginalists made you retreat from economics into culture war, you get postmodern SJWs. Both a dead end and works as a splitter of the left and working class, people who get a sense of right side of history not from capitalism's inevitable downfall, but from demographic change derived from capitalism.

Hitler beat class with race, so maybe you should stop saying 'fuck white people'

I stopped reading because I assumed that you were doing that stupid thing where you accuse anti-discrimination movemnets of being a tool of capitalism.

Not that you ever support this argument. You just complain.

Let's face it, you will never actually support that claim with anything.

Yeah, they way the capitalists are supporting the protesters at Standing Rock sure proves blablabla.

---------------------

No one is saying, "fuck white people.". What people are saying is not to say, "Fuck blacks/gays/women!". Kapeeesh?

No, Conscript does not "capisce". He is too busy trying to convince everyone that he is the most victimest victim that ever victimed, because he is a white male who claims to be working class.

[Godstud]

No, Conscript does not "capisce". He is too busy trying to convince everyone that he is the most victimest victim that ever victimed, because he is a white male who claims to be working class.

I'm a white middle class male from the working class. Was there a memo that I missed?

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Would you guys view his break down of PC authoritarians and PC liberal as correct? A useful tool?

There is something to it, I think, but then you always have a spectrum in any ideology/belief system. The delineation along free speech is certainly useful, because it represents a real threat, in my opinion. What is also nice to see is that he, as a social scientist, gives them some of their own medicine in that he associates traits with different groups. So overall, this is pretty good although he is a rather lone voice.

Of course in a general debate there is no need to make careful distinctions. Depending on who one speaks to and the purpose of the argument, groups can be conflated and traits and dangers exaggerated to the point where they become hyperbolic.

Do you think his "the PC game" is a correct description of Social Justice Warriors?

It's one perspective. Another one is that these are people and their enablers who regard narcissism with respect to feelings as a virtue.

Is he non-ideologue (as he claims) and insightful, or is it eloquent bull?

Impossible to say if he's an ideologue or not. However, the free speech issue is real and hence what he has to say about it is insightful. At this point, anything that raises the issue and any angle is good, in my opinion.

[Conscript]

I see. You think an immigrant living in Canada was part of the reason Trump won. Lol.

I think your left-liberal attitudes are why Trump won, yes.

I stopped reading because I assumed that you were doing that stupid thing where you accuse anti-discrimination movemnets of being a tool of capitalism.

I guess you can't read. I said SJWs

1) ride the coattails of capitalist globalization and the diversity, erosion of national borders, and collapse of social mores derived from such. That doesn't make them bad or wrong, that does define their relationship to the proletariat and our theory of history, though
2) as direct descendants of the new left are grasping at straws to find issues to stake a political career out of, since it's been 50 years since the 60s
3) have all of their issues and solutions completely compatible with the political framework of liberal democracy and capitalism (thus why I call them left-liberals), meaning their intersection with the proletarian revolutionaries will eventually run its course if it hasn't already
4) as middle class hipsters, share the adversarial relationship of the bourgeoisie to the (especially rural, native) working class and deride its beer-drinking lad culture as problematic, and do not care at all about the class issues facing them regarding globalization. They actually cheer on things like TPP as taking down a notch the 'privileged' white working class

Not that you ever support this argument.

I've stated the above many times now and given supporting arguments, especially within the Marxist theory of history.

Let's face it, you will never actually support that claim with anything.

Let's face it, when you reply to me you either A) say something sarcastic or B) say I just never explain something to your satisfaction, which is ever-changing. This is why you always reply with one-liners, simply put you're probably not one of PoFo's finer posters.

Yeah, they way the capitalists are supporting the protesters at Standing Rock sure proves blablabla.

Intersections with the (liberal) left are rarely so simple and universal. What makes you think a capitalist can't disagree with Standing Rock but support the academic left's development of ideological justifications for diversity that's entirely derived from an economic need to remain globally competitive and demographically sustain the welfare state?

No, Conscript does not "capisce". He is too busy trying to convince everyone that he is the most victimest victim that ever victimed, because he is a white male who claims to be working class.

Muh white male

I don't play oppression olympics, I just point out things that are bourgeois and, as compatible with the system, play a key role in revolutionizing it (which we've consistently underestimated capitalism's ability to do, from FDR to Trudeau or Merkel). SJWs are the left wing of capital and provide ideological justification for it in this globalized era defined by a collapsing white middle class, diversifying population, and worsening race + class issue as well as a town and countryside divide (where the bourgeoisie and the left liberals primarily reside on one side). They are the new ruling class ideology, and this is why you suddenly have 'anti-establishment' nationalism that's disproportionately supported by (especially rural, blue collar) working class people that would've been the basis for a labor movement decades ago.

[Pants-of-dog]

I think your left-liberal attitudes are why Trump won, yes.

Yeah, but you believe a lot of incorrect things about me.

I guess you can't read. I said SJWs

1) ride the coattails of capitalist globalization and the diversity, erosion of national borders, and collapse of social mores derived from such. That doesn't make them bad or wrong, that does define their relationship to the proletariat and our theory of history, though
2) as direct descendants of the new left are grasping at straws to find issues to stake a political career out of, since it's been 50 years since the 60s
3) have all of their issues and solutions completely compatible with the political framework of liberal democracy and capitalism (thus why I call them left-liberals), meaning their intersection with the proletarian revolutionaries will eventually run its course if it hasn't already
4) as middle class hipsters, share the adversarial relationship of the bourgeoisie to the (especially rural, native) working class and deride its beer-drinking lad culture as problematic, and do not care at all about the class issues facing them regarding globalization. They actually cheer on things like TPP as taking down a notch the 'privileged' white working class

Whatever, you never support this argument.

I've stated the above many times now and given supporting arguments, especially within the Marxist theory of history.

No, you have not.

What you do is repeat it over and over again, and now you have decided that you are going to claim you supported once long ago. You have not.

Let's face it, when you reply to me you either A) say something sarcastic or B) say I just never explain something to your satisfaction, which is ever-changing. This is why you always reply with one-liners, simply put you're probably not one of PoFo's finer posters.

Well, seeing as how you always reply to me with this same old crap, it is odd that you expect me to come up with new and scintillating responses to this every time.

Intersections with the (liberal) left are rarely so simple and universal. What makes you think a capitalist can't disagree with Standing Rock but support the academic left's development of ideological justifications for diversity that's entirely derived from an economic need to remain globally competitive and demographically sustain the welfare state?

Why would a capitalist support the academic left?

The people I know in the academic left were actually spied on and hunted by capitalist gov'ts.

And as I have said and you have ignored many many times, there is no need to justify diversity.

Muh white male

I don't play oppression olympics, I just point out things that are bourgeois and, as compatible with the system, play a key role in revolutionizing it (which we've consistently underestimated capitalism's ability to do, from FDR to Trudeau or Merkel). SJWs are the left wing of capital and provide ideological justification for it in this globalized era defined by a collapsing white middle class, diversifying population, and worsening race + class issue as well as a town and countryside divide (where the bourgeoisie and the left liberals primarily reside on one side). They are the new ruling class ideology, and this is why you suddenly have 'anti-establishment' nationalism that's disproportionately supported by (especially rural, blue collar) working class people that would've been the basis for a labor movement decades ago.

Would you like me to provide a link where you claim that white working class males are more oppressed than working class women of colour?

What I find hilarious is how often you follow me around writing these posts. It is like I have become your personal bogeyman.

[Conscript]

Are you serious? You started following me around the forum in various threads and sneer at how I break with left orthodoxy with a post there. You've been doing it since this election season started.

I've elaborated on my arguments many times, telling me I didn't support them without explaining how or pointing out which don't make sense to you is your failure, not mine. Try challenging me on things instead of quoting a whole post and saying none of this applies and I didn't support it enough to your satisfaction (and you never say what you don't understand), neither of which is an argument. Occasionally you'll throw in other irrelevant stuff, like how my writing is bad. You're basically a troll at this point.

These 'debates' are one sided because they consist of elaborated points on my part and then one liners on yours that try to poke holes, but really suggest intellectual laziness and a sense of aghastness at what I'm saying that you follow with mockery and shaming.

It's hard to believe you're one of the older members here and this is all you can give us:

No, you have not.

Whatever, you never support this argument.

In other words, I called it.

You, the white hetero male

[Blondie]

I've encountered the same themes in my interactions with POD as well, Conscript; he never backs up his arguments with sources or sound logic. He has trouble thinking for himself, so when he goes up against others that can, he responds with repetitive one-liners and dismissive sarcasm out of shame.

[Frollein]

There's a reason that PoD is the only poster on my ignore list...

[Political Interest]

It's because social justice is a bourgeois fad and pretty much riding the coattails of the liberalism, tolerance, and altruism of Westerners while preaching how bad they are. They're quickly running out of it, though, it only took a couple years of that shit to bring the far right back

I've always viewed social justice as a reform movement within liberal capitalism rather than a revolutionary force that seeks a complete overthrow of the system.

It would explain why there was no revolution in the West. Instead of fighting for communism the Western left fought for social justice and ethnic politics. In the end they failed to establish socialism but were able to make their liberal capitalist democracies more equal.

In other contexts the fight was not for a reform of the old order but its total overthrow (China, Russia).

[mikema63]

When we talk about SJW's I always feel like the category should be broken down into types. A lot of posters (just about all of them) talk about social justice as such a broad category that it essentially just means left-liberal. I'd be curious to see you guys try to break it down into more specific categories and tell us what you think of each of them.

Let's take gay marriage for instance, say someone is a gay marriage advocate and also get's annoyed when people say faggot. Surely he's in a different category than a college student demanding a trigger warning about war in a world history class. Which would be still different than a civil rights advocate suing a school district to desegregate.