What will you do in a post employment world? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14752712
There is a time coming, and it won't be long, when work will become the exception and not the norm. There will simply not be sufficient jobs to go around. The US began flirting with a guaranteed annual wage as long ago as the Nixon administration.

So what will people do in a post work world? How will they define themselves and their self worth?
#14752713
Join the military and fight those damn Bugs.

Everybody drops. 8)

... But uh, I suppose grow the best dope, sell it, get rich, own my own trailer park, get high and drunk as fuck, eat chicken fingers and jalapeño chips.
#14752723
Drlee wrote:How will they define themselves and their self worth?
If you define yourself by the employment you have, you have a real problem. Work does not define you, nor your self-worth.

You define yourself by contributions to society, whether it is as a spouse, friend, sibling, or parent, you are always contributing. Just being a good member of society is a contribution in, and of, itself.

I am retired, and so I am already in a post-employment world. I am not yet 50. People ask me what I do with my time, and I say, "Whatever the fuck I want.". Often that doesn't seem to please most people. :D

That my hobbies might not be what other people prefer, well... that's up to them. I like online-warship(not worship) simulations and have fun with it. I like having a beer with my buddies, and chatting, at the corner shop. I like taking my son swimming at the local resort, or going out to brunch with the wife.

That I am not "contributing" in a hobby like gardening, carpentry, or some such thing, seems to really irk some people. That's their problem, however, not mine.

In the end, you are the only one to decide what your self- worth is, and how you are defined.
#14752725
Bulaba Jones wrote:Join the military and fight those damn Bugs.

Everybody drops. 8)

... But uh, I suppose grow the best dope, sell it, get rich, own my own trailer park, get high and drunk as fuck, eat chicken fingers and jalapeño chips.


Uhhh no. If we all joined the military, then people in charge would have to start listening to us.
#14752731
I don't think it will happen so long as capitalism exists. Which is a tired refrain from a Marxist, but history just doesn't show it to be the case.

You have the industrial revolution. A single human can do what a thousand humans could do before.

There result? Everybody has to work more.

In (most of) our own lifetimes, there was the tech revolution. In 1967 they predicted what we will do with so much leisure time since computers save us so much work.



The things they have the computers do is actually not that out of control (by 1999 maybe, but not by today).

But do we use this technology for more leisure for everyone? Obviously not. We are expected to work even harder at more hours. Our companies and businesses must always be doing more, more, more, more.

Even if some of us live to a day when the capitalist mode of economy is gone, it's going to be a rocky road until we can enjoy the fruits of our labour and become human.
#14752835
Drlee wrote:So what will people do in a post work world? How will they define themselves and their self worth?

I will be too busy working to even think about it.

The lump of work theory is wrong.

But there are those who seem to yearn for pariah status; and when they get it, they start nagging and blaming everybody else.
#14752859
The same things I do now, which can sometimes be called "working" but at other times cannot possibly be called working.

The only real problem is people who want to grow populations that can't support / look after themselves, it was a problem in the past with the Roman dole and Muslim welfare, and it will continue to be a problem in the same places in the future.
#14752894
It would appear no one sees a world of artists. Think about how much of your life is involved with thinking or working toward making your life better. What happens when you have nothing to complain about? We enjoy challenge. Humans tend to turn lives of leisure into lives of decadence, because they are looking for a challenge. Something new. We must find goals for individuals in a post employment world. A return to craftsmen/artists is about the only one I can come up with. Space exploration would certainly help.
#14753021
Atlantis wrote:I will be too busy working to even think about it.

The lump of work theory is wrong.

But there are those who seem to yearn for pariah status; and when they get it, they start nagging and blaming everybody else.


i am tempted to write a long rant about the "lump of work fallacy" fallacy. (The two fallacies in this sentence are intentional)

Suffice it to say the 'lump of work fallacy' depends on a very naive interpretation of technological change, and is itself a fallacy.
#14753035
Life is about cooperation and competition. Even primitive bacteria cooperate and compete for scarce resources. This seems like the most enduring constant of our world. It seems to me that the technological change we are experiencing is profoundly destabilising. I feel both Conservative and Liberals are correct. Liberals are correct that the old world was highly, imperfect - Conservatives view the past through rose tinted spectacles, dangerous (at a systemic level, not just an individual one) and unsustainable. Conservatives are correct that Liberals are tearing up the old world without the foggiest idea of what they are doing. Conservatives are deluded, liberals are demented.

As to work, I feel privileged in that I believe programming will be the last jobs to go. When are if programmers are made redundant then its over for the human race. However AI doesn't have to be human level to destroy humanity. An AI may destroy humanity without having the ability to sustain itself without humanity. Even assuming AI doesn't destroy us, there will still be competition for scarce resources between humans.
#14753057
Why are we working longer hours for less pay, and greater insecurity than ever?

As an imaginative exercise, consider the following two photos:

Image
Image

Q:
What do these two images have in common?
A:
1) They are vast top-down command systems
2) They require massive infusions of capital to build

The first picture (Ford, 1913) is quite revealing. The workers are literally standing elbow-to-elbow. And this is not even the main auto assembly plant, just an ancillary wheel assembly unit. The requirement for a large 'army' of human hands to facilitate this enterprise is the central point. I use the word 'army' because these early industrial systems attacked production in the same way they prosecuted wars - i.e., on a massive scale with lots of labor.

The second picture is just as telling. You see one lone figure standing at the top left. The purpose of human workers in new automated factories is to provide monitoring and occasional intervention if something goes awry.

At this point you will always see the so-called lump of labor fallacy invoked (lol fallacy). The critique postulated by the "lump of labor fallacy" is that new technologies create new jobs to replace the ones they destroy - this critique is invariably accompanied by amused references to Luddites.

The counter to the "lump-of-labor fallacy" is the "lump-of-labor-fallacy fallacy". The original critique makes the unwarranted (and unstated) assumption that new technologies always create more jobs than they destroy. New technologies DO create new jobs, but there is no guarantee concerning their number. Indeed, the principle defining feature of new technologies is their independence of human labor. By definition, labor-saving devices eliminate labor, nicht wahr?

Now, you will usually hear the following response (lol fallacy, part II), something along these lines: "Intellectual labor is required to design and maintain these systems, and therefore what's required is skill retraining." This is even more absurd. Are we really going to replace the armies of workers shown in the first photo, with the handful of technocrats required to maintain the new automated system?

Even the most conservative extrapolation from these trends is breathtaking. Half of existing US jobs will be automated out of existence in two decades. There won't just be individual jobs eliminated - entire categories of human work will simply disappear.

Indeed, barring some total breakdown, the vector of human work being superseded by automation is now unalterable. The inevitable outcome is that the design, construction, and maintenance of automated systems will be done by machines (not to mention its raw material inputs and the distribution of its products).

So the question remains, "Why are we still hustling for the next paycheck?" TiG has already responded to this point: post-scarcity economics can't be implemented in a capitalist system. My response is that it can't be implemented in any system.

Let's take the example suggested by the first photo above. It was taken in the US, but it could easily have been taken in the Soviet Union. In either case, you have a top-down command system controlled by an elite. At the bottom, the workers have zero say in the organization or purpose of their work environment.

What they did have was numbers, and with numbers comes a certain power, even if that power might be limited. Labor, suddenly being a critical component of production, can decide to interfere with the process. This makes capital vulnerable to labor. This vulnerability is what gave labor its new power at the beginning of the twentieth century.

Without this vulnerability, the New Deal would never have happened.

Today the balance of power has shifted back to capital in the most radical fashion imaginable - an unintentional byproduct of the Automation Revolution.

in my opinion, this is why we won't have another New Deal and why we have Trump instead of Sanders.
#14753806
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