If communist nationalism is the norm going by what you say,
I don't know what you mean by communist nationalism. You seem to be calling your imaginary communism "communism" and calling real communism "communist nationalism." Could you use definitions as the world outside of your head use them please, it would simplify things.
then why do communists or socialists call for the disbanding of nationalism in the west?
We don't, again this is the problem with the real world and the world in your head again.
I shall now source (hey maybe you could try sourcing now and then!) from the first edition of Britain's road to socialism (January 1951). A document published by the Communist Party of Great Britian.
NATIONAL INDEPENDENCE OF THE BRITISH PEOPLE AND OF ALL PEOPLES OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE
The Communist Party fights for the national independence and the true national interests of the British people and of all the peoples of the British Empire.
The subjection of Britain to American imperialism is a betrayal of the British people in the interests of big business and of those who are planning a new world war. In the economic sphere, Britain has been turned into a satellite of America, and an American monopolist placed in supreme command of Britain’s industry and American economic controllers and supervisors established in London and reporting to Washington. American big business controls our financial policy, imposes trade restrictions and bans, openly dictates policy, as in the case of devaluation, and is extending the network of American financial penetration and control over British industry. In the military sphere, Britain has been turned into an American base, and the American army of occupation is growing. The new arms programme was decided on American instructions, and under the Atlantic Pact, Britain’s armed forces have been placed under an American Supreme Commander. The British Empire, similarly, has been subjected to increasing American financial and military penetration.
For the first time in its history, our country has lost its independence and freedom of action in its foreign, economic and military policy to a foreign power—the United Slates of America.
The Labour Government and its advisers dare take no major step without American permission, and the leaders of the Tory and Labour Parties compete with one another in servility to the Americans. The leaders of the Labour and Tory Parties have become spokesmen of a foreign power.
Concerned only to defend capitalism and profit, the Labour leaders and the Tories openly betray Britain’s national interests. Such differences as they allow themselves with America are those of the bankrupt junior partner striving to retain what it can in face of American pressure.
The restoration of British national independence, which has been given away by the leaders of the Tory, Liberal and Labour Parties, is the indispensable condition for Britain’s recovery and political, economic and social advance.
The Communist Party declares that the leaders of the Tory, Liberal and Labour Parties and their spokesmen in the press and on the B.B.C. are betraying the interests of Britain to dollar imperialism. Our call is for the unity of all true patriots to defend British national interests and independence.
We stand for a Britain, free, strong and independent. We want our country to be subordinate and subservient to no foreign power, but to stand in friendly association and equal alliance with all powers that recognise and respect Britain’s national interests.
The Communist Party would break with the policy of sell-out to America. It would restore to the British Parliament its exclusive sovereign right to control the country’s financial, economic and military policy, close the country to foreign capitalist penetration and restore the command of the British Armed Forces to British commanders.
To restore control of its own affairs to Britain, so that Britain’s, power could be used on the basis of an independent foreign policy, would be a great contribution towards the preservation of world peace.
The Communist Party therefore rejects all theories which declare national sovereignty to be out of date and thus seek to justify enslavement to American imperialism or aggression against other nations. Real international co-operation can be based only on the sovereign freedom and equal rights of all nations, great and small. Because of this, the cause of Britain’s national independence is bound up with ensuring that all nations in the present Empire also enjoy full national rights and independence.
Within the British Isles, the enforced partition of Ireland and the maintenance of British troops in Northern Ireland must be ended, to enable Irish national unity to be realised. There must be full recognition of the national claims of the Scottish and Welsh peoples, to be settled according to the wishes of these peoples.
Above all, the Communist Party would solve the question of the relations of Britain with the countries of the British Empire.
The enemies of Communism declare that the Communist Party, by underhand subversive means, is aiming at the destruction of Britain and the British Empire. But it is a lie, because it is precisely the Tories and the Labour leaders who are doing this by their policy of armed repression and colonial exploitation. British colonial policy and armed repression have resulted in the undying resistance and hostility of the people of Malaya, Africa and Egypt towards Britain.
In fighting to impose Syngman Rhee on the Korean people and in supporting reactionary puppets in South East Asia and the Middle East, it has earned the hatred of the people of Asia, and thus placed our country at loggerheads with the majority of mankind.
The colonial policy of the Tory and Labour leaders is not only a crime against the colonial peoples, it is draining away our manpower in endless colonial war, and has cost, and will continue to cost, hundreds of millions of pounds. It has disrupted the production of food and raw materials. It can only weaken Britain still further. The colonial peoples struggling for national liberation can never be subdued.
The Communist Party would put an end to the present abnormal relations of colonial war and repression between the British people and the peoples of the Empire by establishing durable friendship with them on the basis of equal rights. This act of historical justice would help lo wipe out the bitterness of the past, and would enormously strengthen Britain on a new democratic basis.
All relations between the peoples of the present Empire which are based on political, economic and military enslavement must be ended, and replaced by relations based on full national independence and equal rights. This requires the withdrawal of all armed forces from the colonial and dependent territories and handing over of sovereignty to Governments freely chosen by the peoples.
Only by this means can Britain be assured of the normal supplies of the vital food and raw materials necessary for her economic life, obtaining them in equal exchange for the products of British industry, needed by those countries for their own economic development.
This would provide the basis for a new, close, fraternal association of the British people and the liberated peoples of the Empire. Only on this basis can true friendship be established between the peoples of the present Empire to promote mutually beneficial economic exchange and co-operation, and to defend in common their freedom against American imperialist aggression.
https://www.marxists.org/history/intern ... 1/51.htm#3Now since you have such wild and unusual ideas I will repeat part of this (I doubt you will read the source anyway).
We stand for a Britain, free, strong and independent. We want our country to be subordinate and subservient to no foreign power, but to stand in friendly association and equal alliance with all powers that recognise and respect Britain’s national interests.
That is what the Communist Party said and that is what Communists believe. The only place communists want to destroy western nationalism is in the pro capitalist propaganda of writers of fiction (there is one right here in this thread!).
You will probably say something like to create a new more reformed version of nationalism in the west with socialist values. If that is the case, what would that look like? What would immigration and border enforcement look like with that?
How many times do you need me to answer the same question before you actually read it?
We already know what socialist border enforcement will look like we don't need to guess.I will not answer this question again, you have hands and you have google. Start by looking up the iron curtain and then the Berlin wall. This is not a complex question.
I'm surprised by the anger within this thread by me just pointing out that Trotskyists support global communism with the destruction of nation states. There is no room there for debate as that is just historical fact.
All communists support global communism. That does not however mean we want people being forced to go all around the world just to find work,
the system that promotes that is called capitalism.Ultimately the goal of communism is everybody being communist worldwide which means a communist global superstate as such an agency is the only thing that can make that possible or something very much like it.
Communism actually means a classless stateless society. You notice I talk of socialist states rather than communist states in my posts? There can be no such thing as a communist state by definition.
USSR= Union of Soviet
Socialist Republics.
I am not sure that you are intellectually equipped to debate this subject.
Some people are nobody's enemies but their own.
"The IDF is retarded" - Zionist Nationalist