Xenophobia And Racism. - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14789626
Joka wrote:It is actually since I've already earlier described how the word racism was coined by Leon Trotsky who was a global communism proponent. It seems that the goal of modern socialists (Trotskyites) is that for racism to come to an end all nation states (ethnically run or managed nation states) must be abolished.

Only when nationalism, nation states, or national sovereignty is destroyed where the world is ruled by an international intelligentsia will racism come to an end by means of erasing everybody's cultural and ethnic historical identity.


This is just a strawman about the beliefs of Trotskyists and has no bearing on actual anti-racism tactics of modent socialists and communists.

More importantly, it does not contradict my point about the modern impact of historical legacies. Are you actually arguing that your erroneous beliefs about Trotsky have had more of an impact on the world than the entire colonial and imperialist eras?
By Decky
#14789630
What is it with anarchists and just feeling happy to pontificate on periods of history they know nothing about?

Only when nationalism, nation states, or national sovereignty is completely destroyed where the world is ruled by an international intelligentsia will racism come to an end by means of erasing everybody's cultural and ethnic historical identity. It's the very reason why the anti-racist movements of socialism, communism, and western liberalism supports politically an open or zero borders immigration policies.


Why could a communist want to removed everyone's cultural and ethnic historical identity? :?: You seem to be talking about capitalism. Who tried to wipe out the Irish culturally, linguistically, and indeed physically? Oh yea the capitalists.

Capitalists want to make everyone essentially the same so they are easier to market products to. What is it with right wing people and projecting the failures of their own ideology onto the left?
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By Joka
#14789631
Decky wrote:Is English not your first language?

:eh:



If I want to have a pint of cider and I don't have one right now this second it does not mean I have became a teetotaller. Socialism in one state was a strategic decision based on when it would be correct to invade the rest of the world and bring them socialism (Trotsky felt "right now" Stalin and everyone else disagreed).

Do you not see this? You do not stop being an internationalist because you want to build a few factories in the country you have right now for a few years. :eh: That makes a lot more sense than trying to invade the rest of the world immediately when the only country you have is still a backwards shithole.

The Soviet Union was not North Korea, it was an internationalist state that wanted to free each and every man woman and child on earth from capitalism.

Anyway this is all just you trying to distract from your original bizarre statement about socialists believing in open borders. Stop trying to change the subject whenever you are proved wrong. :lol: You know you are wrong and I know you are wrong. Socialists have a far sterner attitude towards border security than capitalist do (they want to import as many warm bodies into the west as they can).

Socialist borders tend to involve walls, land mines and machine gun towers, capitalist borders just wave anyone and everyone through as we can see in Europe today.

Anyone claiming anything else is a liar trying to stain socialism with the sins of capitalism. We do not push workers wages down by importing scab labour, that is what you people do.


Your misinformation here will not convince me otherwise.

Modern socialism, communism, and western liberalism all forms of Trotskyism [or influenced by it] is all about creating a global international superstate where there is no borders or independent nation states.

Socialists are all of sudden nationalistic or militaristic with borders now? :excited:

The same socialists that want to abolish nationalism everywhere? :eh: Yeah, right.... :roll:

Now you're accusing me of being a capitalist even though in other threads I've specifically stated that I'm not. Is ad-hominems all you got?
By Decky
#14789639
Socialists are all of sudden nationalistic or militaristic with borders now?


All of a sudden? We always have been, who do you think curbstomped the Nazis in Europe and the Americans in Vietnam?
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By Joka
#14789640
Pants-of-dog wrote:This is just a strawman about the beliefs of Trotskyists and has no bearing on actual anti-racism tactics of modent socialists and communists.

More importantly, it does not contradict my point about the modern impact of historical legacies. Are you actually arguing that your erroneous beliefs about Trotsky have had more of an impact on the world than the entire colonial and imperialist eras?


Right, it's not like modern day socialists (liberals) or communists don't center their internationalist political beliefs around a borderless world especially concerning immigration, silly me. :roll:

In another thread we came to the conclusion that not all capitalists are racist, were all colonialists or imperialists inherently racist? Is it safe to generalize and say that all were?

At any rate I created this thread with the aspirations of discussing xenophobia or racism purely in a modern context. I think everybody is familiar with past historical examples by now or at least should be.


Decky: All of a sudden? We always have been, who do you think curbstomped the Nazis in Europe and the Americans in Vietnam?


And it times of peacetime? (Cold wars don't count.)


Why could a communist want to removed everyone's cultural and ethnic historical identity? :?: You seem to be talking about capitalism. Who tried to wipe out the Irish culturally, linguistically, and indeed physically? Oh yea the capitalists.

Capitalists want to make everyone essentially the same so they are easier to market products to. What is it with right wing people and projecting the failures of their own ideology onto the left?


Egalitarianism, some radicalists of the communist variety I've spoken to say there can never be any kind of true equality so long as everybody views themselves differently therefore differences of culture, ethnicity, language, sex, religion, politics, and so on must be abolished according to their point of view. Differences is not compatible with egalitarianism or equality according to their thinking where only sameness is.
Last edited by Joka on 24 Mar 2017 17:19, edited 4 times in total.
#14789643
Joka wrote:Right, it's not like modern day socialists or communists don't center their internationalist political beliefs around a borderless world, silly me. :roll:


When you have more than one socialist or communist telling you that they do not believe the things that you are ascribing to them, then perhaps you are wrong about what we believe.

International socialism is about reducing the economic inequality between the developed world and the developing world, which are in turn caused by capitalism, imperilaism, and colonialism.

In another thread we came to the conclusion that not all capitalists are racist, were all colonialists or imperialists inherently racist?


While colonialists and imperialists may not be racist as individuals, these two systems are inherently racist.

At any rate I created this thread with the aspirations of discussing xenophobia or racism purely in a modern context. I think everybody is familiar with past historical examples by now or at least should be.


And the point of looking at the past is to understand how it affects the present. Capitalism's past has had far more effect on modern race relations than any Soviet socialist.
#14789650
It is actually since I've already earlier described how the word racism was coined by Leon Trotsky who was a global communism proponent. It seems that the goal of modern socialists (Trotskyites) is that for racism to come to an end all nation states (ethnically run or managed nation states) must be abolished.

Only when nationalism, nation states, or national sovereignty is completely destroyed where the world is ruled by an international intelligentsia will racism come to an end by means of erasing everybody's cultural and ethnic historical identity. It's the very reason why the anti-racist movements of socialism, communism, and western liberalism supports politically an open or zero borders immigration policies.

Great. An 'anarchist' who's a fan of Alex Jones. :roll:
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By Joka
#14789658
Potemkin wrote:Great. An 'anarchist' who's a fan of Alex Jones. :roll:

And yet not a single Alex Jones article and quote throughout this entire thread.

If you can't discuss anything with an opponent go straight into insults or defamation. I see how it is, do you have anything else to contribute to the conversation?
Last edited by Joka on 24 Mar 2017 17:42, edited 1 time in total.
By Decky
#14789659
And it times of peacetime? (Cold wars don't count.)


:lol: Troll.

Asking for an example of a socialist state doing something but disallowing war time? Socialist states are at war from the second they come into being, the capitalists, the anarchists and the fascists (all pretty much the same thing really) start trying to tear down working class power the second the working class gains any.
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By Joka
#14789673
Decky wrote::lol: Troll.

Asking for an example of a socialist state doing something but disallowing war time? Socialist states are at war from the second they come into being, the capitalists, the anarchists and the fascists (all pretty much the same thing really) start trying to tear down working class power the second the working class gains any.

I'm saying separate from communist groups from Stalin's nationalism or like it (Trotskyite communists) would embrace open borders and open immigration much like western liberal democracies today. (Liberal democratic socialism very Trotskyist influenced.)
By Decky
#14789676
We already know what a modern socialist state looks like, we don't have to guess.

Belarus.

Image

Would you like to guess what their attitude is to open borders troll?

Liberal democratic socialism


:lol: Is that a joke? There is no such thing. You might as well talk about a zebra-elephant or a vehicle that is both a train and a bicycle.
Last edited by Decky on 24 Mar 2017 18:26, edited 1 time in total.
#14789677
Joka wrote:And yet not a single Alex Jones article and quote throughout this entire thread.

If you can't discuss anything with an opponent go straight into insults or defamation. I see how it is, do you have anything else to contribute to the conversation?


The meme that Trotsky invented the word "racism" is a myth that circulates through the far right. Assuming that this Alex Jones person is a supporter of the far right, then it is logical to assume that you are a fan of this pundit.

As for the socialist open borders thing, please explain to me how Cuba has an open borders system. Thank you.
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By Joka
#14789678
There are certainly some communist nationalism holdouts like Cuba however a majority of communists are Trotskyites that again support the notion of global communism with the elimination of nation states. For their group eventually nations like Cuba would have to give up their nation state to eventually embrace internationalism in a full revolutionary manner.


I'm sorry but all communists I've come across beyond the internet view internationalism within a globalist mindset where nationhood or nationalism is abolished where eventually communism nationalists hold outs are also disbanded.

Trotsky was the first to define the word racism purely in ideological terms politicizing it. The word existed prior to him of course historically in usage but he was nonetheless the first to give ideological meaning to the word that in turn dominates the political spectrum today.
Last edited by Joka on 24 Mar 2017 18:47, edited 2 times in total.
By Decky
#14789680
They are not holdouts, they are the norm. You are just annoyed you can't find an example of your fictional version of socialism. :lol:

Cuba, Belarus, Vietnam, all socialist and all guard their borders better than the capitalist nations do. Go sell your propaganda elsewhere capitalist no one here is buying it. Open borders are a right wing thing, a feature of capitalism, open markets mean open borders. The capitalists want to be able to shift workers around the world like any other commodity. Communists want to preserve workers culture and allow them to live in their actual homes and build a proper economy with proper jobs where they already are.

You are either a liar or you are too ignorant of socialism to be able to discuss it.

User avatar
By Joka
#14789686
I don't know how many times I have to state to people that I'm neither a capitalist or a conservative for that matter. It becomes really annoying.
By Decky
#14789688
So, Cuba, Vietnam, Belarus, actually not just those examples but every socialist state in history supports my argument, what exactly is there to support your argument? :lol: Anything? Name one of these open border socialist states? Please remember evidence from inside your imagination or from the Alex Jones show won't be good enough, it has to have actually existed out there in the world.

Let me guess you will change the subject again like you do whenever called on one of your wild unsupported theories?
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By Joka
#14789691
If communist nationalism is the norm going by what you say, then why do communists or socialists call for the disbanding of nationalism in the west?

You will probably say something like to create a new more reformed version of nationalism in the west with socialist values. If that is the case, what would that look like? What would immigration and border enforcement look like with that?

I'm surprised by the anger within this thread by me just pointing out that Trotskyists support global communism with the destruction of nation states. There is no room there for debate as that is just historical fact.

Ultimately the goal of communism is everybody being communist worldwide which means a communist global superstate as such an agency is the only thing that can make that possible or something very much like it.
By Decky
#14789697
If communist nationalism is the norm going by what you say,


I don't know what you mean by communist nationalism. You seem to be calling your imaginary communism "communism" and calling real communism "communist nationalism." Could you use definitions as the world outside of your head use them please, it would simplify things.

then why do communists or socialists call for the disbanding of nationalism in the west?


We don't, again this is the problem with the real world and the world in your head again. :roll:

I shall now source (hey maybe you could try sourcing now and then!) from the first edition of Britain's road to socialism (January 1951). A document published by the Communist Party of Great Britian.

NATIONAL INDEPENDENCE OF THE BRITISH PEOPLE AND OF ALL PEOPLES OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE

The Communist Party fights for the national independence and the true national interests of the British people and of all the peoples of the British Empire.

The subjection of Britain to American imperialism is a betrayal of the British people in the interests of big business and of those who are planning a new world war. In the economic sphere, Britain has been turned into a satellite of America, and an American monopolist placed in supreme command of Britain’s industry and American economic controllers and supervisors established in London and reporting to Washington. American big business controls our financial policy, imposes trade restrictions and bans, openly dictates policy, as in the case of devaluation, and is extending the network of American financial penetration and control over British industry. In the military sphere, Britain has been turned into an American base, and the American army of occupation is growing. The new arms programme was decided on American instructions, and under the Atlantic Pact, Britain’s armed forces have been placed under an American Supreme Commander. The British Empire, similarly, has been subjected to increasing American financial and military penetration.

For the first time in its history, our country has lost its independence and freedom of action in its foreign, economic and military policy to a foreign power—the United Slates of America.

The Labour Government and its advisers dare take no major step without American permission, and the leaders of the Tory and Labour Parties compete with one another in servility to the Americans. The leaders of the Labour and Tory Parties have become spokesmen of a foreign power.

Concerned only to defend capitalism and profit, the Labour leaders and the Tories openly betray Britain’s national interests. Such differences as they allow themselves with America are those of the bankrupt junior partner striving to retain what it can in face of American pressure.

The restoration of British national independence, which has been given away by the leaders of the Tory, Liberal and Labour Parties, is the indispensable condition for Britain’s recovery and political, economic and social advance.

The Communist Party declares that the leaders of the Tory, Liberal and Labour Parties and their spokesmen in the press and on the B.B.C. are betraying the interests of Britain to dollar imperialism. Our call is for the unity of all true patriots to defend British national interests and independence.

We stand for a Britain, free, strong and independent. We want our country to be subordinate and subservient to no foreign power, but to stand in friendly association and equal alliance with all powers that recognise and respect Britain’s national interests.

The Communist Party would break with the policy of sell-out to America. It would restore to the British Parliament its exclusive sovereign right to control the country’s financial, economic and military policy, close the country to foreign capitalist penetration and restore the command of the British Armed Forces to British commanders.

To restore control of its own affairs to Britain, so that Britain’s, power could be used on the basis of an independent foreign policy, would be a great contribution towards the preservation of world peace.

The Communist Party therefore rejects all theories which declare national sovereignty to be out of date and thus seek to justify enslavement to American imperialism or aggression against other nations. Real international co-operation can be based only on the sovereign freedom and equal rights of all nations, great and small. Because of this, the cause of Britain’s national independence is bound up with ensuring that all nations in the present Empire also enjoy full national rights and independence.

Within the British Isles, the enforced partition of Ireland and the maintenance of British troops in Northern Ireland must be ended, to enable Irish national unity to be realised. There must be full recognition of the national claims of the Scottish and Welsh peoples, to be settled according to the wishes of these peoples.

Above all, the Communist Party would solve the question of the relations of Britain with the countries of the British Empire.

The enemies of Communism declare that the Communist Party, by underhand subversive means, is aiming at the destruction of Britain and the British Empire. But it is a lie, because it is precisely the Tories and the Labour leaders who are doing this by their policy of armed repression and colonial exploitation. British colonial policy and armed repression have resulted in the undying resistance and hostility of the people of Malaya, Africa and Egypt towards Britain.

In fighting to impose Syngman Rhee on the Korean people and in supporting reactionary puppets in South East Asia and the Middle East, it has earned the hatred of the people of Asia, and thus placed our country at loggerheads with the majority of mankind.

The colonial policy of the Tory and Labour leaders is not only a crime against the colonial peoples, it is draining away our manpower in endless colonial war, and has cost, and will continue to cost, hundreds of millions of pounds. It has disrupted the production of food and raw materials. It can only weaken Britain still further. The colonial peoples struggling for national liberation can never be subdued.

The Communist Party would put an end to the present abnormal relations of colonial war and repression between the British people and the peoples of the Empire by establishing durable friendship with them on the basis of equal rights. This act of historical justice would help lo wipe out the bitterness of the past, and would enormously strengthen Britain on a new democratic basis.

All relations between the peoples of the present Empire which are based on political, economic and military enslavement must be ended, and replaced by relations based on full national independence and equal rights. This requires the withdrawal of all armed forces from the colonial and dependent territories and handing over of sovereignty to Governments freely chosen by the peoples.

Only by this means can Britain be assured of the normal supplies of the vital food and raw materials necessary for her economic life, obtaining them in equal exchange for the products of British industry, needed by those countries for their own economic development.

This would provide the basis for a new, close, fraternal association of the British people and the liberated peoples of the Empire. Only on this basis can true friendship be established between the peoples of the present Empire to promote mutually beneficial economic exchange and co-operation, and to defend in common their freedom against American imperialist aggression.


https://www.marxists.org/history/intern ... 1/51.htm#3

Now since you have such wild and unusual ideas I will repeat part of this (I doubt you will read the source anyway).

We stand for a Britain, free, strong and independent. We want our country to be subordinate and subservient to no foreign power, but to stand in friendly association and equal alliance with all powers that recognise and respect Britain’s national interests.


That is what the Communist Party said and that is what Communists believe. The only place communists want to destroy western nationalism is in the pro capitalist propaganda of writers of fiction (there is one right here in this thread!).

You will probably say something like to create a new more reformed version of nationalism in the west with socialist values. If that is the case, what would that look like? What would immigration and border enforcement look like with that?


How many times do you need me to answer the same question before you actually read it?

We already know what socialist border enforcement will look like we don't need to guess.

Image

I will not answer this question again, you have hands and you have google. Start by looking up the iron curtain and then the Berlin wall. This is not a complex question. :roll:

I'm surprised by the anger within this thread by me just pointing out that Trotskyists support global communism with the destruction of nation states. There is no room there for debate as that is just historical fact.


All communists support global communism. That does not however mean we want people being forced to go all around the world just to find work, the system that promotes that is called capitalism.

Ultimately the goal of communism is everybody being communist worldwide which means a communist global superstate as such an agency is the only thing that can make that possible or something very much like it.


Communism actually means a classless stateless society. You notice I talk of socialist states rather than communist states in my posts? There can be no such thing as a communist state by definition.

USSR= Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

I am not sure that you are intellectually equipped to debate this subject.
#14789707
@Joka
And what you're conflating communists (real communists), with whiny middle class SJWs.
Those are not actual communists in the sense they want a worker revolution. Those are communists in the sense that the USSR used ideological subversion to basically plant them as a seed of internal collapse and conflict in the US(i.e ideologically impure population purposed to spread chaos ) . Needless to say, its working.
By Decky
#14789710
They are not communists in any damn sense! They were not planted by the Soviet Union they a product of capitalism and the bourgeois decadence of the ruling class in a capitalist system. These idiots that Joka is bizarrely and deceitfully labelling as communists would have been the first to get sent to a gulag in the Soviet Union.

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