When did racism end? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14906992
It has been argued by several forum members that western societies are now just and that racism is no longer an issue.

If that were the case, when did racism end?

Today, I read an article where a cop beat up a brown guy because he was Muslim. The other white cops corroborated his claim, but witnesses corroborated the claims of the man who was the target of this racist police brutality.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... -1.4620988

Not only did the cop yell racist slurs and hit the guy repeatedly, but the other cops lied for him. This shows that racism amongst police is not just a case of a few bad apples, but that the force itself tries to hide this racism from others.

How do you reconcile that with the idea that western societies are just and that racism is no longer an issue?
User avatar
By Saeko
#14906993
Racism ended with the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the martyrdom of MLK Jr. This ended racism as both official state policy and mainstream ideology. It is no longer considered acceptable by anybody to harbor racial prejudice.

That's not to say that there are no more racist people.

Not only did the cop yell racist slurs and hit the guy repeatedly, but the other cops lied for him. This shows that racism amongst police is not just a case of a few bad apples, but that the force itself tries to hide this racism from others.


The police will do that when it comes to just about anything a cop does. Cops who work together tend to be friends, and a cop found guilty of a crime could lose not only his freedom but his pension as well (and therefore, what little financial support his family relies on). The motivation for covering for acts of racist violence is not itself necessarily racist.
User avatar
By ThirdTerm
#14907002
Today, I read an article where a cop beat up a brown guy because he was Muslim.


When police asked how many drinks he had, El Hallak said he told them he had not been drinking. El Hallak was beaten up because he wasn't taken up on repeated offers to provide a breath sample, refusing to cooperate. He was initially charged with impaired driving, refusing to take a breathalyzer and obstructing a police officer.

Almost a quarter of Russians have witnessed or experienced beatings carried out by police and medical staff, a new report has revealed.

Some 22 percent of people said they'd seen police attacks firsthand, while 12.3 percent of respondents said that they had personally fallen victim to police brutality, a survey by human rights organization "Public Verdict" and Moscow's Metodicheskaya Laboratoriya found. Another 28.6 percent of Russians had heard of similar cases from family and friends, Russia's RBC news outlet reported.

Just 41 percent of respondents said that officials should be able to carry out “minor” human rights violations for the greater good, but that figure rose when participants were asked whether a kidnapper should be tortured to give up the location of their underage victims (reaching 63 percent), or whether a doctor should be able to violently restrain a mentally-ill patient in order to administer drugs (73 percent).

Some 786 people were surveyed as part of the study, RBC reported.


I think police officers are somewhat brutal and racist by nature and they naturally act like ruffnecks. Over 40 percent of Russians think officials should be able to carry out “minor” human rights violations for the greater good, such as beating up suspects. Criminals are deterred from committing crimes because of the fear factor, without which social order will break down.
Last edited by ThirdTerm on 17 Apr 2018 18:59, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
By Saeko
#14907012
layman wrote:What is the difference between racism existing and there still being racists?

I don’t understand this thread.


The Flat Earth Theory is no longer an accepted part of science, yet there are still people who believe that the Earth is flat.
User avatar
By AFAIK
#14907023
@layman
It's like arguing that Britain is a feudal society because The House of Lords still exists. Or that you are a Neanderthal because 5% of your DNA is shared with Neanderthals. In other words one swallow doesn't make a spring.

The OP makes the argument that racist people still exist. It doesn't demonstrate that USA's institutions are inherently racist.
User avatar
By ingliz
#14907029
In February 1999 the Macpherson report was published. It accuses the Metropolitan Police of institutional racism and makes 70 recommendations, many aimed at improving police attitudes to racism. It also includes some proposals for changes in the law, including strengthening the Race Relations Act to try to clamp down on discrimination.

Ten years on from the Macpherson inquiry, a report from a member of its panel, Dr Richard Stone, says the police have made significant progress in reforming but charges of racism remain.

Today, the Met is still "institutionally racist".
#14907034
The only proof that racism still exists lies in the area of rampant and open discrimination against white people, thanks to the quota system being implemented in many degenerate western countries. Merit is openly sidelined and skin color is used as the basis for hiring practices, higher education position attainment, etc.
#14907061
The answers above are excellent. My comments won’t add much, but here they are.
The people of the US (including white men) joined together to pass laws against racism. It is inaccurate and unfair to keep claiming a country is institutionally racist just because some individual acts can be construed as racist. We have the laws to deal with these acts and they do. Just because you are unhappy with some of the findings, does not make the country racist.
Many of us are outraged at how racist it is to use racism for political gain at the cost of dividing our country. It has the same effect as telling your child, at every opportunity, they are stupid. They start to believe you out of defense. This is what is happening today. “You refuse to accept we are not racist, so the only defense is to be racist.” It is self destructive. It is time to trust our legal system to handle injustice as an individual matter and not a racial matter.
#14907112
Saeko wrote:Racism ended with the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the martyrdom of MLK Jr. This ended racism as both official state policy and mainstream ideology. It is no longer considered acceptable by anybody to harbor racial prejudice.

That's not to say that there are no more racist people.


And yet police and other government figures are openly racist. Judges routinely acquit police who shoot black people. Redlining is still an issue. And if I type “racism” into Google News, Imgetbpages and oages of links to articles describing racist activity by western politicians and authorities.

The police will do that when it comes to just about anything a cop does. Cops who work together tend to be friends, and a cop found guilty of a crime could lose not only his freedom but his pension as well (and therefore, what little financial support his family relies on). The motivation for covering for acts of racist violence is not itself necessarily racist.


That does not matter. It is still an example of cops tacitly supporting racism, even if they are doing it for reasons other than racism. For the people of colour dealing with police brutality, the motivations of the other pollice are irrelevant compared to the fact that the other cops are enabling and supporting racism.

—————————

AFAIK wrote:@layman
It's like arguing that Britain is a feudal society because The House of Lords still exists. Or that you are a Neanderthal because 5% of your DNA is shared with Neanderthals. In other words one swallow doesn't make a spring.

The OP makes the argument that racist people still exist. It doesn't demonstrate that USA's institutions are inherently racist.


Actually, I never mentioned the USA at all. I will assume you are from the US since it is generally people from the US who assume everyone is always talking about the US.

Institutions are still racist in North America. For example, indigenous law in Canada is about how to navigate thise laws that deal with how Canada took indigenous land. It is not about the law made by and for indigenous people.

Another example, again not from the US, is the police ignoring how hundreds of indigenous women have gine missing or murdered and nothing is being done about it.

Examples abound. Do you have any evidence that western institutions have eradicated racism from their midst?

——————————

layman wrote:Some lawyer said it so it must be true....

The op needs to be more specific.


Yes, the guy beaten up in the article cited in the OP never actually got beat up. It was just some story a lawyer told.

:roll:

———————————

Sivad wrote:It was never their land. The crime of colonialism wasn't that Europeans moved in, it was the genocide they committed after they moved in. They should have made fair accommodation, but the natives never had the right to exclude anyone from coming here.


Yes, it was their land. And it still is, according to their laws.

Indigenous people,actually have legal systems of their own. This may be a hard concept to grasp, but it is true, and these laws dictated land ownership.

Also, nations have the right to stop people from coming onto their land. This is why border security exists.

Most groups within the progressive movement have the same backers, just like most of the groups in the wingnut movement are supported by the Kochs. And you might not be aware of it but most groups within any big movement share an intellectual and political lineage. Your command and control caricature is just an ignorant appeal to ridicule.


Please provide evidence that the DNC has anything to do with indigneous sovereignty movements in Canada. Or even in the US for that matter.

You're definitely not a socialist and liberal and totalitarian are definitely not mutually exclusive.


Wrong on both counts.

If you do not understand the difference between luberalism and totalitarianism, then you should reserarch the definitions of these words before using them.

Well I never said that. Of course there's racism, there's lots of racism, it's just not anywhere near as bad as SJW liberals would have us believe.


:roll:

Yes, there is a secret conspiracy by all progressives to make everyone think racism still exists because ..... well, there seems to be no motiavtion for anyone to do that, but your feels are important so it must be true.

:lol: A group of native kids show up drunk and armed on some stranger's property, break into his vehicles, almost kill his wife, and one of them gets shot. That's hardly structural racism.


Please provide evidence for these claims.

Also, the justice system that forced the trial to have an all white jury, which in turn almost guaranteed an acquittal, is an example of structural racism.

Are you joking? There are plenty of conservative people of color that don't buy the SJW structural racism nonsense. Shit, even most Black Democrats are super tough on crime. Not all people of color share your delusions.


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... democrats/

Over 80% of blacks in the US see racism as a big problem. There may be a few who do not, but they are few.

It's the same in Canada. There's no big difference.


Please provide evidence that your myths about indigenous people apply to indigenous people in Canada.

Not because of ongoing structural racism, that's for sure. It's because they're trapped in a vicious cycle of dysfunction. That cycle may have been caused by structural racism but that's certainly not what is currently perpetuating it. If you want to help natives you have to help them help themselves. They do need jobs, healthcare, social services, education, but none of that will make a difference if they don't take responsibility for themselves and for their communities.


So you do not know what caused this cycle of abuse.

Look up “residential school system” and then get back to me.
User avatar
By Saeko
#14907123
Pants-of-dog wrote:And yet police and other government figures are openly racist. Judges routinely acquit police who shoot black people. Redlining is still an issue. And if I type “racism” into Google News, Imgetbpages and oages of links to articles describing racist activity by western politicians and authorities.


And yet, none of what you've said here contradicts anything I've said. I explicitly said that racists are still around, some of them cops and government officials. But if you think Jim Crow is still on the books or that Richard Spencer has a shot at public life, you're living in liberal la-la land.

That does not matter. It is still an example of cops tacitly supporting racism, even if they are doing it for reasons other than racism. For the people of colour dealing with police brutality, the motivations of the other pollice are irrelevant compared to the fact that the other cops are enabling and supporting racism.


That's utterly absurd, of course it matters. If you want to explain a person's actions, then you need to understand their motivations. Is a doctor who saves the life of a Neo-Nazi a tacit supporter of racism?
#14907125
Saeko wrote:And yet, none of what you've said here contradicts anything I've said. I explicitly said that racists are still around, some of them cops and government officials. But if you think Jim Crow is still on the books or that Richard Spencer has a shot at public life, you're living in liberal la-la land.


So racism did not end. And western societies are still unjust to people of colour.

That's utterly absurd, of course it matters. If you want to explain a person's actions, then you need to understand their motivations. Is a doctor who saves the life of a Neo-Nazi a tacit supporter of racism?


Please explain how it matters to the person in the cited article. Thanks.

From his perspective, the other cops still turned a blind eye to racist violence, and since they were government officials, this means that the government also turned a blind eye to the racist violence of one of its own officials.
User avatar
By Saeko
#14907127
Pants-of-dog wrote:So racism did not end. And western societies are still unjust to people of colour.


So is this gonna be yet another one of those "debates" where you don't even bother to support your points with any sort of arguments and simply repeat them over and over?

If so, tell me so I can find some less tedious way to waste my time.

Please explain how it matters to the person in the cited article. Thanks.


1. You are deflecting. The issue is not whether or not the motivations of the police officers involved matter to the victim. Their motivations are certainly relevant in a discussion about the existence of institutionalized racism.

2. You haven't answered my question about whether or not a doctor who saves the life of a Neo-Nazi is a tacit supporter of racism.

From his perspective, the other cops still turned a blind eye to racist violence, and since they were government officials, this means that the government also turned a blind eye to the racist violence of one of its own officials.


You are jumping to conclusions. The cops involved in this case are neither the totality of the government nor are they its main representatives. In cases where some aspect of the government fails, it is the duty of the other parts to correct it. A just system of government is not one where nothing ever goes wrong, but one where things that do go wrong get corrected.
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14907134
Saeko wrote:You are jumping to conclusions. The cops involved in this case are neither the totality of the government nor are they its main representatives. In cases where some aspect of the government fails, it is the duty of the other parts to correct it. A just system of government is not one where nothing ever goes wrong, but one where things that do go wrong get corrected.

Well put, the specific problem in cases like this is that most cops believe that they (and their fellow officers) can do no wrong.

I agree with you in principal that racism as an accepted institution in America has ended. But that change is still being disputed, which leads to contrary allegations. Trump definitely isn't helping things.

Zam
User avatar
By Suntzu
#14907135
What is racism? Anyone who doesn't believe there are differences in the races has never watched the Olympics, a NFL game, a NBA game or watched the graduation at medical school.
#14907168
Saeko wrote:So is this gonna be yet another one of those "debates" where you don't even bother to support your points with any sort of arguments and simply repeat them over and over?

If so, tell me so I can find some less tedious way to waste my time.


There is still racism. You agree with this.

There is still structural racism. Redlining is still an issue. Impunity for police officers who kill minorities is still an issue.

Even the POTUS was able to use racism to get him elected.

So, even if some of the worst excesses are now illegal, that does not change the underlying structural racism of western countries.

1. You are deflecting. The issue is not whether or not the motivations of the police officers involved matter to the victim. Their motivations are certainly relevant in a discussion about the existence of institutionalized racism.

2. You haven't answered my question about whether or not a doctor who saves the life of a Neo-Nazi is a tacit supporter of racism.


1. No, the motivations are not relevant because the impact of their actions is to support and perpetuate racism, and this is true regardless of what they believe.

2. No, because the doctor is not part of the government and his or her actions have no social impact.

You are jumping to conclusions. The cops involved in this case are neither the totality of the government nor are they its main representatives. In cases where some aspect of the government fails, it is the duty of the other parts to correct it. A just system of government is not one where nothing ever goes wrong, but one where things that do go wrong get corrected.


In this case, the other police were there to supposedly act as a check or balance to the racist police officer. They did not act this way. Because of the testimony of the other officers, the prosecutor felt there was not enough evidence to even see if the racist cop did anything wrong.

The Muslim who was beat had to personally go and ask his neighbours for their testimony, and get their testimony to the prosecutor before anything was done. In other words, all of the checks and balances that actually worked were a result of private and individual action that was completely independent from government oversight.

——————————

Zamuel wrote:Well put, the specific problem in cases like this is that most cops believe that they (and their fellow officers) can do no wrong.

I agree with you in principal that racism as an accepted institution in America has ended. But that change is still being disputed, which leads to contrary allegations. Trump definitely isn't helping things.


If racism as an institution is not accepted in the US any more, then why was Trump able to win an election by appealing to racism?
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