[ckaihatsu]

Anatomy of a Platform: The News Cycle


Hi, all, I'm starting a new illustrative process using a sociological-type graphic framework that I developed. The basis illustrations are here:


Anatomy of a Platform: The News Cycle






Anatomy of a Platform




And:


History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle





This is the first usage of it:


Anatomy of a Platform: The News Cycle -- Anti-Trump-Dynasty




So, as you can see, the framework allows for any combination of 'platforms' (and, further, 'strategies' and 'tactics') in common over extended political-ideological terrain (the one-dimensional left-right political spectrum).

I'd like to open this up to any and all serious participation. Please feel free to make suggestions, perhaps from sketches that use the same framework elements, for any news developments that would benefit from such an illustrative approach.

Thanks!


Chris



--
___

RedMarx - A Forum
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Politics Forum
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RevLeft.com -- Home of the Revolutionary Left
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Photoillustrations, Political Diagrams by Chris Kaihatsu
postimage.org/ckaihatsu

Meetup.com
meetup.com/members/1278720


-- Will talk about the weather with anyone --

[Odiseizam]

Anatomy of a Platform: The News Cycle

You can also make room in this 3d diagram for an Centrist Root above the Nationalist/Status-Quo soil stratum, coz like this looks as bipolar picture and in reality indeed there is balance above all, hm, it could be [1][1] at least after any next global cataclysmic events i.e. Why Cant We Be Friends to roll day after without substitute ...

btw nice chart, I liked also Your other experiments [1] looks like AoI is intuitive for graphic juggling!? as I can see from the AoI manual there is good import option even for vectors [1] and probably has potential as smooth spline to trice conversion in obj pipeline [1]

[ckaihatsu]

You can also make room in this 3d diagram for an Centrist Root above the Nationalist/Status-Quo soil stratum, coz like this looks as bipolar picture and in reality indeed there is balance above all, hm, it could be [1][1] at least after any next global cataclysmic events i.e. Why Cant We Be Friends to roll day after without substitute ...

btw nice chart, I liked also Your other experiments [1] looks like AoI is intuitive for graphic juggling!? as I can see from the AoI manual there is good import option even for vectors [1] and probably has potential as smooth spline to trice conversion in obj pipeline [1]

Thanks for the positive comments, but I can't agree with you politically.

'Centrism' basically means the nationalist status quo, which only injects state force to keep the left from defeating the right, as with Biden's 'unity' politics that accommodates to the Republicans and the far-right.

Here's a way of illustrating this dynamic, in graphical form:


Ideologies & Operations -- Left Centrifugalism

Spoiler: show

Yes, AoI is a very good basic 3D modeling app, is cross-platform (Java), and has great procedural textures. With some trial-and-error one can even get the rendering results to be fairly sharp / detailed, though it will always have a softer, 'artistic' look to it, compared to the more-photorealistic LuxCoreRender renderer that I also use, as with this recent creation:


inductive vs. deductive reasoning

Spoiler: show

[Odiseizam]

'Centrism' basically means the nationalist status quo, which only injects state force to keep the left from defeating the right, as with Biden's 'unity' politics that accommodates to the Republicans and the far-right.

food for thought ... no, Biden is accommodated to neocons, while eg. Trump was more right~centrist alike [1][1][1] tho with too big ego so he could endure both sides, maybe I would need whole thread to explains this more logically ...

now, centrism is Balance, its simple, we live in world where this could be achieved, like it or not that is idealism without substitute, why, take for example the sun and the moon their centrists twilight is most dream alike state of the day, altho as crossfade it could be also difficult period if people are not use to it i.e. we are too long trenched in the opposites, I'll say You have opinion that suggests monoculturalism, and living in world of diversity that would mean utopia or dystopia depending on the circumstances! other example it would be Marriage, You want nice little creatures to wander around You, then You need to go along with Your woman and have good nice loving atmosphere with her

My deep understanding of causality in this world especially on political level is that until there is no Balance there would be neither true Peace ... and this is not utopianism but pragmatism, otherwise we would more blessed by Platos than Aristotles reasoning ...

... we must accept that as humans we have all Free Will and that would ask for political compromises, now if You think that this not possible I am also ok with that, just I am afraid that when power principles are around such vibe storms and earthquakes loom easily, so dont be so cliquish You belong to humanity not to some utopian ideology sorry for my moralizing ...

[Odiseizam]

hm, I need to point to one paradox, as political centrism the balance is possible only on local tribal level, otherwise it would be also another utopian ism, logically if and only if we want to keep the cultural diversity and not fall on monocultural braindamage!

I could argue further why decentralization is useful, but until liberal capitalism is in full swing this is not possible, nor socialism will offer similar centrist change and chance for selfsufficient balancing of the multiculti diversity, is we know that socialism per-se is centralization from birth that eventually could become left centrism alos but usually leads to communism ...

centrism as ideology should would and could be something as postcapitalistic management of economy and politics, what already is in motion in the western realm after the last financial crisis when the states started to bail out the Too Big Too Fail banks and corporations, also have in mind that inside every current empire there is not stable political togetherness it would be not possible any reform to provide if not lasting then strong results as solutions to the piling deadends of the liberal capitalism ...

now, Ask Yourself how is it possible to have abundance if there is idealization of isms on finite planet, and the answer (in my opinion) should be Everyone (every nation) should be tankful that exist, as such it should and can balance each other even if they are completely different by structure productivity or needs i.e. they can help each other on every level but with no need of any federalism, maybe by regionality unionism, but definitely they dont need to be copy of each other, what is exactly what is happening nowadays, and the current unions became also Too Big To Fail and are seen as ultimate solution to existence in some circumstances tho by predetermined obligatory tweaking i.e. federal centralized centrism [1]

yet liberal capitalism as economic norm is disruptive because overexploitation and unethical competitiveness i.e. the further need of green standardization is utmost needed now so we as humanity can keep the planet in balance from natural risks like deluge(glo.war.) earthquakes(fracking) badharvests(gmo monocultures) etc. etc. for what I think at the moment highest ecofootprint risk is the methane release due to fracking [1][1] so first things first as biggest contributor usA should find common ground and investing massive in venting tech know-how stop their emissions immediately, because if this will not happen we are all doomed to extreme tribalism day after Artic and the rest Glaciers will melt ...

[ckaihatsu]

food for thought ... no, Biden is accommodated to neocons, while eg. Trump was more right~centrist alike [1][1][1] tho with too big ego so he could endure both sides, maybe I would need whole thread to explains this more logically ...

I agree that Trump was nationalist-isolationist, while the Democrats (Obama) have been upholding the (Bush) neocon legacy.

now, centrism is Balance, its simple, we live in world where this could be achieved, like it or not that is idealism without substitute,

This line is both philosophical *idealism*, and is also *idealistic* -- in terms of societal *goals* we can't ignore the *class divide*. It's the paramount social ill in society, and needs to be addressed, meaning that the world's working class need to be the ones to control social production -- what stuff gets made, and how, and for whom.

'Balance' doesn't cut it because it's too vague and doesn't address the real world.

why, take for example the sun and the moon their centrists twilight is most dream alike state of the day, altho as crossfade it could be also difficult period if people are not use to it i.e. we are too long trenched in the opposites, I'll say You have opinion that suggests monoculturalism, and living in world of diversity that would mean utopia or dystopia depending on the circumstances! other example it would be Marriage, You want nice little creatures to wander around You, then You need to go along with Your woman and have good nice loving atmosphere with her

You're mixing scales here -- political economy ('politics') isn't about personal *relationships*, or social psychological dynamics, as many believe, it's about how society disposes of its surplus.

Here's this diagram again, to illustrate *scale*:


‭History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show

My deep understanding of causality in this world especially on political level is that until there is no Balance there would be neither true Peace ... and this is not utopianism but pragmatism, otherwise we would more blessed by Platos than Aristotles reasoning ...

... we must accept that as humans we have all Free Will and that would ask for political compromises, now if You think that this not possible I am also ok with that, just I am afraid that when power principles are around such vibe storms and earthquakes loom easily, so dont be so cliquish You belong to humanity not to some utopian ideology sorry for my moralizing ...

The *main* 'power principle' is who has to produce for others, and who doesn't. Here's a good summation of it:

Oscar Wilde 1891

The Soul of Man under Socialism

The chief advantage that would result from the establishment of Socialism is, undoubtedly, the fact that Socialism would relieve us from that sordid necessity of living for others which, in the present condition of things, presses so hardly upon almost everybody. In fact, scarcely anyone at all escapes.

Now and then, in the course of the century, a great man of science, like Darwin; a great poet, like Keats; a fine critical spirit, like M. Renan; a supreme artist, like Flaubert, has been able to isolate himself, to keep himself out of reach of the clamorous claims of others, to stand ‘under the shelter of the wall,’ as Plato puts it, and so to realise the perfection of what was in him, to his own incomparable gain, and to the incomparable and lasting gain of the whole world. These, however, are exceptions. The majority of people spoil their lives by an unhealthy and exaggerated altruism – are forced, indeed, so to spoil them. They find themselves surrounded by hideous poverty, by hideous ugliness, by hideous starvation. It is inevitable that they should be strongly moved by all this. The emotions of man are stirred more quickly than man’s intelligence; and, as I pointed out some time ago in an article on the function of criticism, it is much more easy to have sympathy with suffering than it is to have sympathy with thought. Accordingly, with admirable, though misdirected intentions, they very seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see. But their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it. Indeed, their remedies are part of the disease.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... /soul-man/

---

hm, I need to point to one paradox, as political centrism the balance is possible only on local tribal level, otherwise it would be also another utopian ism, logically if and only if we want to keep the cultural diversity and not fall on monocultural braindamage!

You may want to describe this 'balance' that you keep invoking -- you're not explaining what you *mean* by it.

I could argue further why decentralization is useful, but until liberal capitalism is in full swing this is not possible, nor socialism will offer similar centrist change and chance for selfsufficient balancing of the multiculti diversity, is we know that socialism per-se is centralization from birth that eventually could become left centrism alos but usually leads to communism ...

Capitalist nation-states each use centralization, to varying extents, and certainly for the sake of warfare. Unfortunately the global patchwork of nation-states is too internationally *competitive* for a truly globalized material-economy, and so we see international friction and world wars prevail instead of the vaunted liberal-idealist single world economy that's touted by free-markets types.

I'm a workers-of-the-world communist, yes, and I also have a depiction of how such could be socially organized on a bottom-up basis:


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show

centrism as ideology should would and could be something as postcapitalistic management of economy and politics, what already is in motion in the western realm after the last financial crisis when the states started to bail out the Too Big Too Fail banks and corporations, also have in mind that inside every current empire there is not stable political togetherness it would be not possible any reform to provide if not lasting then strong results as solutions to the piling deadends of the liberal capitalism ...

You're *still* relying on mere *buzzwords* to relay your politics for you -- how exactly would economics and politics be handled, then, on a postcapitalistic basis -- ? How would material (mass) production get done, and how would it be valued?

now, Ask Yourself how is it possible to have abundance if there is idealization of isms on finite planet, and the answer (in my opinion) should be Everyone (every nation) should be tankful that exist, as such it should and can balance each other even if they are completely different by structure productivity or needs i.e. they can help each other on every level but with no need of any federalism, maybe by regionality unionism, but definitely they dont need to be copy of each other, what is exactly what is happening nowadays, and the current unions became also Too Big To Fail and are seen as ultimate solution to existence in some circumstances tho by predetermined obligatory tweaking i.e. federal centralized centrism [1]

The problem isn't the power of *labor unions* -- the problem is that of gargantuan, monolithic *capital*, as in the billions owned by any given corporation these days.

yet liberal capitalism as economic norm is disruptive because overexploitation and unethical competitiveness i.e. the further need of green standardization is utmost needed now so we as humanity can keep the planet in balance from natural risks like deluge(glo.war.) earthquakes(fracking) badharvests(gmo monocultures) etc. etc. for what I think at the moment highest ecofootprint risk is the methane release due to fracking [1][1] so first things first as biggest contributor usA should find common ground and investing massive in venting tech know-how stop their emissions immediately, because if this will not happen we are all doomed to extreme tribalism day after Artic and the rest Glaciers will melt ...

Your environmental concerns here are legitimate, but you're not offering any sufficient *politics* to address the global warming problem.

Those companies that *don't* stop their wanton polluting emissions will have a competitive market *advantage* versus those who *do* act environmentally responsibly, so we're just back to the anarchy of capitalism.

[Odiseizam]

@ckaihatsu I will answer in general on Your reply ...

Balance in this world should be imperative on every level, we are living even more complex reality than straight one, and if eg. for bicycle balancing is norm while You are on straight path, then how much more if the road ahead is Spiral ... those allegories of mine are just simple way of expressing the need of balancing, what in political terms would be centrism, and in economical that would be the current global capitalism between different economical systems ... now, indeed the market share is disbalanced by the current rules of trading and how are they arranged through the wto standardization without any ethical norms concerning the national ecofootprints, and that should be managed as quickly as possible so we could keep the current order and build better upon it later ...

... now we are in some kind of hilarious position, and that probably could not welcome change until the next global economic depression, and after it will not depend so much from socialism whether we will get back on legs, but again from the will for balancing i.e. not every state will crumble, nor revolutions will happen everywhere, even after eventual ww3 still many will keep their current capitalistic mindset, then even locally will be made compromises and many regions will have capitalistic production tho on much smaller level eg. trading till there where cosst of production are competitive ... so all this would be Centrism from necessity ...

... from ideological side, basically Socialism as planned economy and equal rights for all, is exactly centrism, but along with it till now elitism and nepotism also have surfaced regularly in every existing soc.system, at least I can confirm this in case of ex-Yugoslavia, and maybe thrown "on paper" by You like this here looks manageable, but in reality is/was par'excellence corruption on every level, as if there was no sense for the common possession in ex-Yu where from top to bottom everybody were stealing from the collective surpluses if not from the main capital, arguably this in panopticon mass-surveillance times is avoidable easily, but when and if that happens again authoritarianism will make the life unbearable, seen earlier in ex-Yu as titoism!!! so elitism should be avoided by all means and in same time there is need of time and space for trials and errors so such socialistic system would thrive as longer as possible, but again there are too many geopolitical risks that will provoke again for authoritarian elitism to arise ...

in my opinion as laft idealism socialism will be possible "only and only if" as humanity we endeavor some natural cataclysm like worldwide deluge or asteroid strike, the second one will again contribute to the first one, and then whether we like it or not as humanity we will be instantly forwarded to socialism, if as variable is taken in account that almost half of the world population lives ~200 km from the sea shore ... till then socialism would be just wanna-be dream mostly for idealists who didnt got their share of the current mammonistic world cake, among them me too, but knowing that we live in world that rests in the realm of causality its impossible to think that through revolutions or by peace this current order would be rearranged to suit all, and thats why as humanity we need compromises, balancing between wealth and social rights what could be achieved only through more direct democracy [1][1][1]

[ckaihatsu]

I agree that Trump was nationalist-isolationist

CORRECTION:

Trump *wasn't* an isolationist, because he imposed economic-warfare *sanctions* on other countries like Iran and Venezuela, and also used *tariffs* as economic protectionism for the U.S.

[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu I will answer in general on Your reply ...

Balance in this world should be imperative on every level, we are living even more complex reality than straight one, and if eg. for bicycle balancing is norm while You are on straight path, then how much more if the road ahead is Spiral ... those allegories of mine are just simple way of expressing the need of balancing, what in political terms would be centrism,

Balancing *what*, though -- ? You continue to be vague, and you imply that 'the center' / centrism is some kind of calm, sane, rational political position to take, as opposed to the 'extremes' of either extents.

Yet the status quo is *not* calm, or sane, or rational -- why can't global warming, for example, be addressed with a common plan of attack, so as to get everyone on the same page, as we've had to do, more or less, regarding COVID -- ?

What about the class division and income inequality? Runaway privileges for the wealthy is *exactly* what has brought down entire civilizations in past human history.

and in economical that would be the current global capitalism between different economical systems ...

You used the term 'postcapitalism' previously, so which is it -- is the global economy supposed to be capitalist, or are we to strive for some kind of a '*post*-capitalist' political economy -- ?

now, indeed the market share is disbalanced by the current rules of trading and how are they arranged through the wto standardization without any ethical norms concerning the national ecofootprints, and that should be managed as quickly as possible so we could keep the current order and build better upon it later ...

'Managed' -- ?

Are you aware that the (political) world is not like a single country or corporation, and that there are *competing* nationalist interests at stake for any given international situation?

Why do you put your trust / faith into the WTO, when such international bodies are highly controversial themselves? Remember that there were *mass protests* in the late '90s against such titans of capitalist globalism.

... now we are in some kind of hilarious position, and that probably could not welcome change until the next global economic depression, and after it will not depend so much from socialism whether we will get back on legs, but again from the will for balancing i.e. not every state will crumble, nor revolutions will happen everywhere, even after eventual ww3 still many will keep their current capitalistic mindset, then even locally will be made compromises and many regions will have capitalistic production tho on much smaller level eg. trading till there where cosst of production are competitive ... so all this would be Centrism from necessity ...

Trump is out of office now, so this nationalist-retrenchment line is both out of vogue and also unrealistic since you're not calling for any trans-national *corporations* to break themselves up into localist-type devolved structures.

The overall point that you're missing here is that world capitalism developed international corporate structuring *centuries* ago, and such corporations have *command* over how mass industrial production gets done, and who benefits.

Localism is both *nostalgic* and anachronistic at this point -- *unrealistic*, in other words.

... from ideological side, basically Socialism as planned economy and equal rights for all, is exactly centrism, but along with it till now elitism and nepotism also have surfaced regularly in every existing soc.system, at least I can confirm this in case of ex-Yugoslavia, and maybe thrown "on paper" by You like this here looks manageable, but in reality is/was par'excellence corruption on every level, as if there was no sense for the common possession in ex-Yu where from top to bottom everybody were stealing from the collective surpluses if not from the main capital, arguably this in panopticon mass-surveillance times is avoidable easily, but when and if that happens again authoritarianism will make the life unbearable, seen earlier in ex-Yu as titoism!!! so elitism should be avoided by all means and in same time there is need of time and space for trials and errors so such socialistic system would thrive as longer as possible, but again there are too many geopolitical risks that will provoke again for authoritarian elitism to arise ...

Well, socialism was never meant to be constrained to any single country, so wherever it *has* been constrained to a single country, historically, it has been more accurately termed 'Stalinism', meaning planning by a bureaucratic-elitist administration instead of by the workers themselves.


Political Spectrum, Simplified

Spoiler: show

in my opinion as laft idealism socialism will be possible "only and only if" as humanity we endeavor some natural cataclysm like worldwide deluge or asteroid strike, the second one will again contribute to the first one, and then whether we like it or not as humanity we will be instantly forwarded to socialism, if as variable is taken in account that almost half of the world population lives ~200 km from the sea shore ... till then socialism would be just wanna-be dream mostly for idealists who didnt got their share of the current mammonistic world cake, among them me too, but knowing that we live in world that rests in the realm of causality its impossible to think that through revolutions or by peace this current order would be rearranged to suit all, and thats why as humanity we need compromises, balancing between wealth and social rights what could be achieved only through more direct democracy [1][1][1]

I don't know why you're deciding to validate wealth here, with this line of yours.

Absolutely every last item, large or small, that one can think of, that confers utility to someone, was only able to come into existence due to the efforts on the part of *labor*, somewhere, sometime. Capital and wealth are just *formalistic* measures for the actual material reality that exists around all of us here in modern society. Industrial production is the norm now, and we use goods and services made possible by industrial *mass production*.

Capitalism, though, favors conditions of *scarcity*, as you're describing, for its economic valuations, since no one will participate with payments for anything that's available for free.

Capitalism is unable to suitably deal with conditions of *abundance*, as we commonly see today, due to capitalism's dynamic of *overproduction* -- it needs to be set aside so that *socialism* can properly distribute whatever it is that the workers of the world produce, over existing industrial implements of mass production, so as to meet actual *human needs* for such goods and services.

[Odiseizam]

@ckaihatsu ok basically You are theorizing again, as I pointed only possible way socialism to replace capitalism is either by revolution or by cataclysm, seeking socialism through elections in best case would bring again capitalistic mood [1] and again only viable peaceful solution is running for compromise not status quo, governments should found ways how to push change in the current circumstances by imposing not geopolitical sanctions like now but anti'over'exploatation one, in this respect the pressure should be against usA and China but instead is on Russia, so now everything is in right-swing not at all balanced ground!

dont know if I have stated earlier, I am also with socialistic economic mindset, but decentralized and democratic political compass i.e. communal libertarian again [1] in this case socialism is just economic rationalism while the governance is tribal or national but with democratic anti'agitprop power struggle but technocratic meritocracy that would promote specialists instead leaders that relay on their advice, and this is socialist centrism balancing between all levels in such way so we would have even space things to go by free electoral will in any direction later maybe royalism if eventually the tribe wants that ...

tell me how You think we should come to level of Socialism? who should steer the wheel again elites? how long that will last if there is no competitive clime? I have offered the example of ex-Yu and You are right it was titoism, believe me if wasnt for the export to the west even earlier the yugoslav system would crumble, and actually was reseted by usA when decided that is no more useful as such, just pulled two nails and the socialistic federation exploded [1] tho hear the strike was as on economic so as on nationalistic level, so ex-Yugoslavia is example where ethnically unhomogeneous federation is not wise choice as socialistic in long run, tho as communism like in ussR maybe, but even there it was proved that the economic burden is too heavy when is not shared with the rest of the wealthy world, so there is no quick solution nor simple answer but only hope that all the states in the world through constant debate will find some middle solution suitable for all that first of all will address the methane fracking emissions in usA, but that is almost impossible, so maybe after all we will welcome as final reset deluge as natural cataclysm and till after to expect socialism to work its way everywhere, hm but even then its question how that will function coz then will erupt wars for basic needs and resources like food and water, so royalism and communism would be more probable to emerge!

[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu ok basically You are theorizing again, as I pointed only possible way socialism to replace capitalism is either by revolution or by cataclysm,

I think you're misconstruing socialism here, since it, by definition, *has* to be a mass-conscious social construction by the world's working class. Sure, some catastrophic-type event could be an external *catalyst* for such a sea-change, as COVID has been for current general-strike-like conditions for labor, but a cataclysm itself would not *automatically* usher in appropriate social conditions for socialism. I'll also note that the market system works well under conditions of *scarcity*, but not under (present-day) conditions of material *abundance*, for the sake of humane distributions of such.

seeking socialism through elections in best case would bring again capitalistic mood [1] and again only viable peaceful solution is running for compromise not status quo, governments should found ways how to push change in the current circumstances by imposing not geopolitical sanctions like now but anti'over'exploatation one, in this respect the pressure should be against usA and China but instead is on Russia, so now everything is in right-swing not at all balanced ground!

By implying the scope of *geopolitical relations*, you're implicitly validating capitalist governments all over the world. It's the *workers* who should be controlling social production, and workers *don't need* any patchwork global system of nation-states or globalist capitalist institutions like the WTO or World Bank. Why should workers be economically exploited in the *least* when it's *workers* who should be collectively running *everything*.

dont know if I have stated earlier, I am also with socialistic economic mindset, but decentralized and democratic political compass i.e. communal libertarian again [1] in this case socialism is just economic rationalism while the governance is tribal or national but with democratic anti'agitprop power struggle but technocratic meritocracy that would promote specialists instead leaders that relay on their advice, and this is socialist centrism balancing between all levels in such way so we would have even space things to go by free electoral will in any direction later maybe royalism if eventually the tribe wants that ...

This anarcho-capitalist politics just begs the question, though, because even if things were collectivized *by commune*, the question would remain as to how *commune-to-commune* relations should take place.

Also, any resorting to a technical elite just means that *others* -- workers -- would have to produce commodities for the elites' consumption while the 'specialists' produce no commodities themselves. They're more similar to *administrators*, or a bureaucratic-elitism, than anything else. You're effectively promoting *Stalinism* with this technocratic line of yours.

I made a particular proposed political-economy diagram precisely to address this issue:


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show

---

tell me how You think we should come to level of Socialism? who should steer the wheel again elites? how long that will last if there is no competitive clime? I have offered the example of ex-Yu and You are right it was titoism, believe me if wasnt for the export to the west even earlier the yugoslav system would crumble, and actually was reseted by usA when decided that is no more useful as such, just pulled two nails and the socialistic federation exploded [1] tho hear the strike was as on economic so as on nationalistic level, so ex-Yugoslavia is example where ethnically unhomogeneous federation is not wise choice as socialistic in long run, tho as communism like in ussR maybe, but even there it was proved that the economic burden is too heavy when is not shared with the rest of the wealthy world, so there is no quick solution nor simple answer but only hope that all the states in the world through constant debate will find some middle solution suitable for all that first of all will address the methane fracking emissions in usA, but that is almost impossible, so maybe after all we will welcome as final reset deluge as natural cataclysm and till after to expect socialism to work its way everywhere, hm but even then its question how that will function coz then will erupt wars for basic needs and resources like food and water, so royalism and communism would be more probable to emerge!

'Reset by the U.S.' -- ?

That's quite a euphemism, if I ever heard one....


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bomb ... Yugoslavia


Stalinism, like that of Tito's Yugoslavia, cannot exist as an island in a larger global sea of capitalism -- we've seen the implosions over and over again, and I'm not a Stalinist. I'm a workers-of-the-world socialist.


Political Spectrum, Simplified

Spoiler: show

[Odiseizam]

@ckaihatsu ex-Yu indeed was dismantled by usA, in the footnoted thread You have enough links that support this claim, tho they are on the next page, see the highlighted britic link [1] and Yes if ex-Yu had have atomic weapons it would stayed long after as whole, but tito drop out from the project, I'm still not sure why!

about the libertarian notion, hm it could be anarcho-socialism in question also, what is important is that the power is in hands of people as decision making through participatory democracy than strictly representative one ... in this respect I see the need of technocratic meritocracy just as administration that should serve not to rule the community ...

me approving capitalism, no I am not in favor of capitalism, nor implying that it should exist, just saying that the current circumstances dictate such outcome that there is no other peaceful way for this world to continue than things to be balanced, wto as such is exactly that, and this bothers usA coz why recently push for own gig [1] this dont means that socialist tendencies should be forgotten, no, if some society sees the need for change it should go for it, but defacto most of the current elites would not accept easily such motion, thats why I am saying this could be reached only in particular circumstances ...

... again You didnt answered me how You think socialism would prevail, the working class by no means will support or even benefit from revolutions as things now stands, simply having the debt option now at hand they are not likely to support nothing else but syndical demonstrations ...

[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu ex-Yu indeed was dismantled by usA, in the footnoted thread You have enough links that support this claim, tho they are on the next page, see the highlighted britic link [1] and Yes if ex-Yu had have atomic weapons it would stayed long after as whole, but tito drop out from the project, I'm still not sure why!

about the libertarian notion, hm it could be anarcho-socialism in question also, what is important is that the power is in hands of people as decision making through participatory democracy than strictly representative one ... in this respect I see the need of technocratic meritocracy just as administration that should serve not to rule the community ...

What you're *not* ready to acknowledge, though, is that capitalist economics takes a life of its own, and mitigates "democracy" to the extent that profits can be made -- hence colonialism and then finance-imperialism.

Capitalist governments today exist to serve ruling-class interests for profit-making, even using the public purse to prop up 'too big to fail' companies, rendering them into 'zombie' companies that only exist due to government financing.

Likewise I don't see how any 'technocratic meritocracy' could possibly escape the influence of profit-making economics -- today's government is hardly neutral, and a technocratic one would be a Stalinist-type bureaucratic elite, at *best*.

me approving capitalism, no I am not in favor of capitalism, nor implying that it should exist, just saying that the current circumstances dictate such outcome that there is no other peaceful way for this world to continue than things to be balanced,

There's no peace today and there's no 'balance' -- you're simply ignoring the class divide, and the diametrically-opposed interests of the working class, to the interests of the ruling class.


[11] Labor & Capital, Wages & Dividends

Spoiler: show

wto as such is exactly that, and this bothers usA coz why recently push for own gig [1] this dont means that socialist tendencies should be forgotten, no, if some society sees the need for change it should go for it, but defacto most of the current elites would not accept easily such motion, thats why I am saying this could be reached only in particular circumstances ...

You've *equivocating* on your politics -- which is it, should global capitalist institutions like the WTO be considered as valid institutions, or shouldn't they be? Should profit-making be the paramount social goal, or shouldn't it be?

... again You didnt answered me how You think socialism would prevail, the working class by no means will support or even benefit from revolutions as things now stands, simply having the debt option now at hand they are not likely to support nothing else but syndical demonstrations ...

It's in working-class interests to control the means of mass industrial production, for themselves.

[Odiseizam]

@ckaihatsu if I was in favor of capitalism I wouldnt bash usA as plutocracy [1] I just say that in the current circumstances the might is in hands of modern aristocracy i.e. banc'corp elites so any revolutionary strive will bring just more suffering for the working class which btw is hostage to the debt luxury i.e. enjoy its momentum of overindulgence above its needs, at least many are ok with the fact that they can borrow some so they can enjoy more, easier than they could afford to produce in time so they would enjoy in time, now if You think that they would enjoy more if there was socialism instead capitalism You are also wrong, in ex-Yu working class was again the last hole on the flute when collective vacation camps or hotels were in question, that reward system was again misused by nepotism or elitism, I was witness of this momentum eg. even do my parents were in high positions still because they were not party poltrons they didnt got any benefactions, just two times in 50 years got hotel accommodation on behalf of their merit, many didnt got even that although extra amount of money were poured by every "wonna'be'worker'organization" in such leisure accommodations ... at least we had flat on leasing, tho many didnt, but that didnt made our life better, at least we were among selected working class neighbors so we stayed normal as family and rejoiced life in collectivistic manner hanging in the ghetto on bench ...

dont get me wrong I love it through my childhood as socialism, even later enjoyed the ghetto in my youth days when Macedonia was indulged in the misery of postsocialistic transition to capitalism, and eventually run away from the ghetto when people embraced capitalism in full swing with dope on every meter and selfish possessiveness in every heart, so indeed I hate capitalistic mindset just because this cold self'satisfactory imposture of ego lusts or wealth racing, but now when we became part of the capitalistic 'hole I am aware that easy transition again to socialism is just fantasy, even do now we have means as potential e-society to monitor easily any misbehavior thus potentially Socialism could be more truthful on greater extent, still seen from perspective of easy transition that is simply unimaginable in peaceful terms, defacto the banc'corp elites will not allow that easily fo through, and as usual will impose destabilization if not direct war assault, even idea of selfsufficiency like what have popped up in Gaddafis head brings chaos, THATS why I am saying we need to balance each other and through introduction of Open Society and Libertanianism to get little by little to Socialism, but maybe for that we dont have time, most probably we will reach Socialism either by the next world economic depression or after ww3 (vice versa) but think again as working class we will not see egalitarian socialism but elitistic one!

about my notion for technocratic meritocracy, cmon see it as degree of knowledge i.e. most talented and devoted administratives to hold the manager positions, tho not they but citizens to manage the laws and the space for action through participatory democracy i.e. direct citizen democracy where there would be mechanism for quick referendums through eg. biometric voting for every more important law locally or regionally ...

btw nice new infographic ...

[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu if I was in favor of capitalism I wouldnt bash usA as plutocracy [1] I just say that in the current circumstances the might is in hands of modern aristocracy i.e. banc'corp elites so any revolutionary strive will bring just more suffering for the working class which btw is hostage to the debt luxury i.e. enjoy its momentum of overindulgence above its needs, at least many are ok with the fact that they can borrow some so they can enjoy more, easier than they could afford to produce in time so they would enjoy in time, now if You think that they would enjoy more if there was socialism instead capitalism You are also wrong, in ex-Yu working class was again the last hole on the flute when collective vacation camps or hotels were in question, that reward system was again misused by nepotism or elitism, I was witness of this momentum eg. even do my parents were in high positions still because they were not party poltrons they didnt got any benefactions, just two times in 50 years got hotel accommodation on behalf of their merit, many didnt got even that although extra amount of money were poured by every "wonna'be'worker'organization" in such leisure accommodations ... at least we had flat on leasing, tho many didnt, but that didnt made our life better, at least we were among selected working class neighbors so we stayed normal as family and rejoiced life in collectivistic manner hanging in the ghetto on bench ...

Okay, I hear ya on the elitism thing, which can manifest both economically (plutocracy), or politically (bureaucratic elites).

That said, though, I'd like to remind that socialism doesn't *have* to be historical Stalinism -- the workers need to be the ones collectively running society, which is more logistically feasible *these* days due to the Internet / communications technologies. Basically each worker would also be a 'co-administrator', as a tack-on set of coordinating duties that complements the actual work they do to produce goods and services for society.

dont get me wrong I love it through my childhood as socialism, even later enjoyed the ghetto in my youth days when Macedonia was indulged in the misery of postsocialistic transition to capitalism, and eventually run away from the ghetto when people embraced capitalism in full swing with dope on every meter and selfish possessiveness in every heart, so indeed I hate capitalistic mindset just because this cold self'satisfactory imposture of ego lusts or wealth racing, but now when we became part of the capitalistic 'hole I am aware that easy transition again to socialism is just fantasy, even do now we have means as potential e-society to monitor easily any misbehavior thus potentially Socialism could be more truthful on greater extent,

I'll suggest that this 'policing' (civil-society) aspect that you're concerned with would actually be *moot* in a *post*-capitalist context because there'd be nothing at-stake to be selfish or egocentric *about* -- any 'overlap', or interpersonal competitiveness over infrastructure or resources would yield a forced-coworkers kind of situation, which would still be an improvement over today's forced-coworkers-from-above norm, under capitalist management, for profit-making objectives.

I don't think of Stalinism (historical 'socialism') as being a *fantasy* -- it's *not* desirable to have bureaucratic elitism, or Stalinism.

still seen from perspective of easy transition that is simply unimaginable in peaceful terms, defacto the banc'corp elites will not allow that easily fo through, and as usual will impose destabilization if not direct war assault, even idea of selfsufficiency like what have popped up in Gaddafis head brings chaos, THATS why I am saying we need to balance each other and through introduction of Open Society and Libertanianism to get little by little to Socialism, but maybe for that we dont have time, most probably we will reach Socialism either by the next world economic depression or after ww3 (vice versa) but think again as working class we will not see egalitarian socialism but elitistic one!

Well I'm glad that you're not naive to the interests of the currently ruling elite, but I don't think that parliamentarism (to socialism) would be effective, either, for the same reason of top-down control that you're mentioning.

In my experience I've found that "libertarians" can't address the *economics* of what they're suggesting to any feasible extent, and that's why I created the following graphic to illustrate and describe *my own* position on what a post-capitalist productive scenario could look like:


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show

---

about my notion for technocratic meritocracy, cmon see it as degree of knowledge i.e. most talented and devoted administratives to hold the manager positions, tho not they but citizens to manage the laws and the space for action through participatory democracy i.e. direct citizen democracy where there would be mechanism for quick referendums through eg. biometric voting for every more important law locally or regionally ...

btw nice new infographic ...

Well, I see this 'technocracy' ideal as actually describing the present-day *status quo* to a large extent, which obviously isn't working out itself, due to punitive foreign policy (sanctions and tariffs) on other countries, etc.

Also there's nothing to address *standards* for technological implementations, so 'technocracy' just begs-the-question of how society as a whole is supposed to democratically select *what technologies* it uses for any given thing, such as energy policy (hydrocarbons vs. solar vs. nuclear, etc.).

Maybe you could speak to this socio-political issue, and/or to what you appreciate about the graphic(s) I've provided.

[Odiseizam]

@ckaihatsu what is for sure we will get after ww3 or economic collapse before or after the same, form of socialistic feudalism i.e. communism where the ex-capitalist again will subsidize themselves tho more like with human-capital [1] simply their current position as power centers (who have in their hands the technological know-how and the modern arms) will be misused later, one of the reasons why I see the revolutions as meaningless nowadays, maybe from within but that is almost utopian dream how things stands ...

I would say Agrarianism will be dominant escape for most of the human population in such circumstances, and almost as noone is preparing for such transition but dream for some utopian political one, thats why to me socialism dont appeal, but tend reasoning in post ww3 circumstances about socialistic libertanianism ... after the basic needs are secured as in Maslow Pyramid after soc.lib. reality should follow ...

so not top-down policing, but the opposite i.e. power to the people ... this is the true third way ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

https://youtu.be/Wm5VhcYrIUg

[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu what is for sure we will get after ww3 or economic collapse before or after the same, form of socialistic feudalism i.e. communism where the ex-capitalist again will subsidize themselves tho more like with human-capital [1] simply their current position as power centers (who have in their hands the technological know-how and the modern arms) will be misused later, one of the reasons why I see the revolutions as meaningless nowadays, maybe from within but that is almost utopian dream how things stands ...

I would say Agrarianism will be dominant escape for most of the human population in such circumstances, and almost as noone is preparing for such transition but dream for some utopian political one, thats why to me socialism dont appeal, but tend reasoning in post ww3 circumstances about socialistic libertanianism ... after the basic needs are secured as in Maslow Pyramid after soc.lib. reality should follow ...

so not top-down policing, but the opposite i.e. power to the people ... this is the true third way ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

Wm5VhcYrIUg

socialistic feudalism i.e. communism where the ex-capitalist again will subsidize themselves tho more like with human-capital

Well, what good then is *feudalism*, when we have far more productive capacity today (industrial mass production) than during the times of historical feudalism -- ?

You would be content to allow feudalist land holdings and capitalist exploitation of labor to continue, which is basically how people are exploited and oppressed *today*, so you're not suggesting anything *better*.

Proletarian revolution would be *meaningful* in that it would overthrow the kinds of class parasitism that you just described. It's not utopian, but actually *realistic* to say that the workers of the world could collectively run society without profit-making and without having to aggrandize a non-productive parasitic ruling class.

[Odiseizam]

@ckaihatsu obviously You missed my point or think that is avoidable ... again, "they" the current banc'corp elites will not allow easily masses to gain control, so any proletarian revolution is condemned on failure as easily successful but bloodbath without end!

recently I've posted some notion on which level is their technotronic know-how [1] and dont forget the rest of technology that they have at hand like atomic weapons also emf weapons [1] and for sure biological etc. alike means to reset any massive attack by the masses ...

... masses who as I said are blinded or asleep now, think by any chance even if there was in place mass bolshevik type of propaganda again masses will endure easily because they as workers still believe that the american dream will survive ... so dont be fooled that there could be reached peaceful transition without compromises and balancing between the rich and the poor ... !

[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu obviously You missed my point or think that is avoidable ... again, "they" the current banc'corp elites will not allow easily masses to gain control, so any proletarian revolution is condemned on failure as easily successful but bloodbath without end!

recently I've posted some notion on which level is their technotronic know-how [1] and dont forget the rest of technology that they have at hand like atomic weapons also emf weapons [1] and for sure biological etc. alike means to reset any massive attack by the masses ...

... masses who as I said are blinded or asleep now, think by any chance even if there was in place mass bolshevik type of propaganda again masses will endure easily because they as workers still believe that the american dream will survive ... so dont be fooled that there could be reached peaceful transition without compromises and balancing between the rich and the poor ... !

I'd say *you're* missing the point, since things like the capitalist finance that you're mentioning are particular to the *capitalist* class, and to capitalist interests, but not to the *working* class and its own type of social organizing, meaning socialism.

Here's a recent example:

Vote “no” on the sellout agreement at Hunts Point! Form rank-and-file committees to expand the strike!

Workers must stop this betrayal by forming a rank-and-file strike committee, elected democratically by workers themselves, to take the conduct of the strike and negotiations out of the hands of the Teamsters and fight for the expansion of the struggle throughout the city and beyond.

The trade union executives are trying to strangle the strike because they fear it can become a catalyst for a broader movement of the working class, which would quickly develop into a direct conflict not only with New York Mayor de Blasio and Governor Cuomo but the incoming Biden administration.

That is why they have brought a parade of Democrats, including Congresswoman and Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) member Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, to the picket lines.

These photo-ops were designed to cover up the fact that the Democrats, no less than Republicans, defend American capitalism and are opposed to any measures to halt the pandemic which impinge upon profits.

Indeed, it is the Democratic Party which is the chief author of the social catastrophe in New York during the pandemic. Their real attitude towards the strike was exposed earlier in the week when Mayor Bill De Blasio sent riot cops against striking workers.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/0 ... t-j23.html

That same day, the New York City Educators’ Rank-and-File Safety Committee countered these efforts by passing a resolution urging that the strike be broadened. Before the contract vote on Saturday, January 23, the SEP published a statement in both English and Spanish, calling upon workers to reject the sell-out contract, and fight to continue and broaden the strike.

The Hunts Point market strike marks just the beginning of much broader struggles by the working class in the US and internationally. In Chicago, the country’s second largest school district, teachers voted to go on strike. In Matamoros, Mexico, hundreds of striking workers have defied threats by the union, police and National Guard. It is critical that workers now draw the necessary lessons from this political experience.

The class lines are clear: the Socialist Equality Party, the WSWS, and the workers are on the one side of the barricades, and the capitalist state, the Democratic Party, the DSA, and the unions are on the other. We urge the many workers who have followed this strike and our coverage to contact us today to build independent rank-and-file committees and to join the SEP. This is the only path forward to prepare for the immense struggles ahead.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/0 ... a-j30.html

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/redmarx ... t1560.html

[Odiseizam]

Chris please I am not supporting anyhow the greedy capitalist, just saying revolution is not the solution!the american system is such that there is no way out except by balancing the odds as internally so as externally, if this is not done by democrats too that will lead to economic collapse eg. they were using the lockdown hype as propaganda but actually cant impose it now when in power even as mild approach of partial lockdown ...

https://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15156082#p15156082

now, if You think that they dont want socialism as dems, You are wrong they are even for worldwide one as globalists, and quite a while working on the freemasonic agenda for n'w'o what probably because they lost momentum with Trump wont happen nor quickly or with any lasting effects !

https://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15152946#p15152946

now we can hope that they will awake to the fact that their elitist ideals are exposed enough so they would start to play with open cards, after what logically whole world will come to common ground, and through un to negotiate not unilateral but multipolar new world order on socialistic premises, at least so we can save the platen from deluge, but this is almost imposible if we know that their western governed nwo agendas ideals and experiment last almost two centuries as utopian dream, and on top of that they have now the american neocon dominionists on their neck so most probable outcome will be ww3 as their response on the dead end of the western casino!

in my opinion now only effective measure as humanity what we have is Christianity and revoking extra Grace in these shady times through more Inchurched Liturgical Life, but knowing how masses are lobotomized by consumerism and triviality this is somehow unreachable goal even more coz the covid-histeria, so any substantial risk management at the moment would be every society to prepare for the worst while hopping for the best ...

think imposing rural reemigration programs backed by agro~machinery~rings and co-op's will lay ground for any type of future crisis i.e. stimulating Agrarianism immediately and thinking how masses would be cushioned for basic needs ahead because now rarely some state is selfsufficient on level of food, what about will for voluntarism or comune based care for the poor ...

https://youtu.be/1SH3PUBkWYQ