[late]

Our political values are secular, but our moral values have been Christian.

A lot of the Founding Fathers were Deists, not Christians.

If you move onto the building of the Modern world, after the Civil War, things got more secular. In the 20th century, things got even more secular, look at the Separation rulings.

The Right likes to pretend their fantasies are history, but they aren't...

[Fasces]

Andrew Tate is a sexual abuser than runs a brothel in Eastern Europe, please don't let him rot your brain.

[Fasces]

Anyway, it's funny to see all the energy being directed by folks angry at the systemic reality of capitalism and directing that anger at feminism and wokism, as if the latter two are at all responsible.

Feminism addresses the biological inequalities between men and women that lead women to earn less and be less safe in an environment that is increasingly a substinence level society of renters; wokism attempts to address the sociological inequalities between in groups and out groups to the same end. Neither does much to address the underlying issue that Western society shouldn't be a neofeudal subscription service.

The problem remains the material environment than alienates persons from their labor, that demands dual income (from multiple jobs) to survive, that prevents parents from educating their children or building family bonds, and which criminalized non productive existence.

Feminism and wokism aren't ruining Western society - if anything, they're two buckets being used to bail water out of a ship full of holes.

Also: anyone that wants to go back to traditional Christian values without also banning ursury won't solve jack shit.

[Godstud]

Andrew Tate is a sexual abuser than runs a brothel in Eastern Europe, please don't let him rot your brain.

No he didn't, and no he doesn't. You've fallen for the Slam jobs that MSM does against people who dare speak the truth about things.

Feminism and 'Wokism' are not caused by capitalism. We didn't have 'Wokism' 10 years ago.

[Fasces]

It's sad watching the alt-right propaganda pipeline affect folks in real time. The Rings of Power really did a number on you.

Regardless, the term "woke" has been in use since the 30s, and mainstream in civil rights and social justice movements since the 60s.

[Godstud]

Alt-right? Oh, please. I am a Liberal. I just prefer reality over delusional fantasy. The pendulum has swung too far.

Rings of power was crap. There probably won't be a second season. It didn't affect me in any way aside from making Hollywoke more obvious than ever.

The slamming that Black Adam is getting is a good example of this. It has no 'woke agenda' so the critics slam it while the fans like it.

[Fasces]

Feminism 1) didn't cause a renter society, 2) it didn't cause a stagnation in wage growth with an increase in inflation that demanded dual income households, 3) it didn't cause working hours to remain the same despite huge increases in productivity which makes raising a family something that is outsourced to state education, 4) it didn't cause single-parent househoulds, 5)it didn't cause anti-family capitalist practices such as refusing to hire women at risk of being pregnant forcing them to take birth control.

Getting rid of 'feminism' does nothing to address any of the concerns being raised in this thread - it substitutes structural change for denying women the ability to survive independently, while maintaining a structure that robs men and women of the agency of making real choices.

[Godstud]

No, Feminism didn't cause a renter society, but it did teach many young women the delusion that they don't need men. That's as delusional as the MGTOW dumbassery that exists in response.

[Fasces]

You would rather your daughters be forced to live through bad/abusive situations because they can't independently exist?

[Unthinking Majority]

A lot of the Founding Fathers were Deists, not Christians.

If you move onto the building of the Modern world, after the Civil War, things got more secular. In the 20th century, things got even more secular, look at the Separation rulings.

The Right likes to pretend their fantasies are history, but they aren't...

I'm not talking about the Founding Fathers, or even political institutions, I'm talking about society as a whole. The Founding Fathers were secularists yes, I'm not making any argument that the US is a Christian polity. I'm arguing that most Americans and Westerners in those days were Christians with Christian-informed values and moral code. I'm not religious myself in any way.

I'm not arguing for a return to religion, I'm saying society has been on an ongoing project to define new values for itself, which is fine, but is a more difficult task than most assumed, including unintended consequences. Some of these new values have been good for society, some have been harmful, and some have been a mix of both. Same with traditional "Christian" values: some are good, some bad, some both. The problem I see in our abandoning of Christianity is that we threw the baby out with the bathwater. Meaning, hindsight 20/20, some of those traditional values were helpful for society, even if at the time they seemed outdated and no longer useful. I'm as guilty of this as anyone. I think we've gone a bit too far in places.

This extends to defining new gender roles too. If we're going to redefine gender roles for men and women and abandon those that functioned for many thousands of years, we had better think this through carefully, it's not only about "my rights", there are many consequences (good, bad, and in-between) to changing the fundamental relations between men and women, including on the family and children. ie: If men are no longer "the sole providers" and women have careers, but men don't pick up the slack domestically, how is this affecting the family unit and our kids? Or their parents when they're elderly and need care? Thus far the answer has been to have far fewer children, stick the ones we have in daycares, put our parents in retirement homes/longterm care facilities, and now families need 2 incomes to afford that 1 income used to.

[Fasces]

If men are no longer "the sole providers" and women have careers, but men don't pick up the slack domestically, how is this affecting the family unit and our kids?

But this isn't a question of Christian values.

It's not that men and women don't want to live in single-income homes or raise families. They materially can't.

The anti-feminists - the Reagans and libertarian conservatives of the world - have done more to destroy traditional institutions of family than any feminist.

[ness31]

Andrew Tate is a sexual abuser than runs a brothel in Eastern Europe, please don't let him rot your brain.

I heard this on a podcast too. But where is the evidence? Does he have any criminal proceedings against him? Or are we going to say he pays off corrupt Romanian law enforcement? I’m not a fan, I’m genuinely interested …

[Fasces]

His compound was raided by Romanian police, and the investigation is not closed. There's videos of him beating women. He explicitly said he moved to Romania because police there are more lenient on rape.

Dude's a nut running a scam on alienated boys and lonely old men who send money to webcam models, likely trafficked as most webcam models are.

[Godstud]

You would rather your daughters be forced to live through bad/abusive situations because they can't independently exist?

Exceptions are not an argument. A woman divorcing a man due to abuse isn't going to be unable to independently exists. Courts are biased towards women, particularly in these situations.

The "videos" you claim about him beating a woman, also had the women coming out saying they were having sexual roleplaying. Ignore that fact, though. You're pushing a narrative.

No he does not have a brothel in Romania. You're buying into the BS, hook, line, and sinker.

[ness31]

His compound was raided by Romanian police, and the investigation is not closed. There's videos of him beating women. He explicitly said he moved to Romania because police there are more lenient on rape.

Dude's a nut running a scam on alienated boys and lonely old men who send money to webcam models, likely trafficked as most webcam models are.

I’m surprised, considering the seriousness of the allegations there isn’t more publicity surrounding them. Have we learned nothing from Epstein ?

[Godstud]

The video of Andrew Tate beating a woman has been debunked.

Andrew Tate's ex sets record straight on controversial bondage video that cost him Big Brother
"I just wanted to let you know that this has all been a huge misunderstanding. I heard he got kicked out of the house because of it, which I find really unfair because it really was just pure game. That's what we used to do."

https://www.irishmirror.ie/whats-on/and ... rd-8213969

[Fasces]

No he does not have a brothel in Romania

Fine. A house full of webcam models.

The video of Andrew Tate beating a woman has been debunked.

The kick-boxing world champion star shared a short clip on his Facebook account of an unnamed woman claiming to be the person in the footage.

Lots of qualifiers there for a 'debunking'

The scumminess of Andrew Tate aside, his videos are just garbage anyway. He says nothing new or valuable, and you too can hear all of it for $39.99 per month! When did MLM grifters become philosophers?

[ness31]

Fine. A house full of webcam models.

Lol, well, they are different. Are they physically having sex with clients? And is he involved in people smuggling?


He’s not addressed the allegations either..

[Unthinking Majority]

Anyway, it's funny to see all the energy being directed by folks angry at the systemic reality of capitalism and directing that anger at feminism and wokism, as if the latter two are at all responsible.

Feminism addresses the biological inequalities between men and women that lead women to earn less and be less safe in an environment that is increasingly a substinence level society of renters; wokism attempts to address the sociological inequalities between in groups and out groups to the same end. Neither does much to address the underlying issue that Western society shouldn't be a neofeudal subscription service.

The problem remains the material environment than alienates persons from their labor, that demands dual income (from multiple jobs) to survive, that prevents parents from educating their children or building family bonds, and which criminalized non productive existence.

Feminism and wokism aren't ruining Western society - if anything, they're two buckets being used to bail water out of a ship full of holes.

Also: anyone that wants to go back to traditional Christian values without also banning ursury won't solve jack shit.

Feminism, wokism, and Marxism can sometimes be very good at identifying problems, can even solve some of these problems well, and other times have really bad solutions to these problems because they underestimate the complexity of social and economic issues. The overly simplistic solutions that sound good at the time can have unintended negative consequences that simply aren't identified or cared about. Sometimes the more radical types identify problems that aren't even problems at all.

I'm not anti-feminist, or anti-socialism. They both have important places in our society to solve certain problems when they seem rational, but the implementation of solutions have to be well thought through, and possible problems projected and managed/resolved. If criticizing any feminist ideas, even the most radical and illogical ones, is "sexist" then society is screwed because these ideas will be treated as dogma that can't be questioned & heretics exiled.

To blame most of society's problems on capitalism, America, the patriarchy, and "white people" is as overly-simplistic as blaming most problems on feminism, socialism, immigrants, and China.

The problem remains the material environment than alienates persons from their labor, that demands dual income (from multiple jobs) to survive, that prevents parents from educating their children or building family bonds, and which criminalized non productive existence.

Society was capitalist 150 years ago just as it was 50 years ago. Yet these problems didn't exist as they do now. Capitalism hasn't been managed properly (neoliberalism/deregulation etc), especially in the US, so yes the material environment has changed. But so have attitudes. Women didn't start working because of capitalism, they started working because they wanted careers and technology made domestic work easy enough for them to do so without one parent staying home scrubbing clothes all day. Capitalism means that if 50% of couples are 2 income households the other 50% are screwed, so capitalism just forced everyone who could to follow along.

[Fasces]

Society was capitalist 150 years ago just as it was 50 years ago. Yet these problems didn't exist as they do now.

The criminalization of existence didn't exist 150 years ago.

Rape and domestic abuse was much higher - so high, a bunch of non-voting women even got men to ban alcohol over it. The onset of easy divorce may have led to more single-family homes, sure, but for a good reason. The alternative is a worse outcome.

Real wages were higher and growing with productivity until the 1970s - I guess feminism is to blame for that.

Again:

The anti-feminists - the Reagans and Gordon Geckos of the world - have done more to destroy traditional institutions of family than any feminist.