I Reject, I Affirm. ''Raising the Black Flag'' in an Age of Devilry. - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

An atheist-free area for those of religious belief to discuss religious topics.

Moderator: PoFo Agora Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. Religious topics may be discussed here or in The Agora. However, this forum is intended specifically as an area for those with religious belief to discuss religion without threads being derailed by atheist arguments. Please respect that. Political topics regarding religion belong in the Religion forum in the Political Issues section.
#14996329
@annatar1914

Since you mentioned the Kali Yuga in TLTE, a concept closely related to your "age of devilry", I watched this presentation on the Yugas:



Interestingly the scholar maintains that some people have the dates of the yugas wrong and that the correct timing shows that the last kali yuga finished in 500 AD*. We are currently in an ascending phase of a new "bronze age" Dwapar yuga. In contrast to yourself he takes the technological and scientific growth of the past thousand years to be a positive sign in alignment with the increasing mental virtue associated with coming out of the kali yuga.

*correction: 500 AD is the lowest point of the last kali yuga and it finished in 1700 AD.
#14996333
SolarCross wrote:@annatar1914

Since you mentioned the Kali Yuga in TLTE, a concept closely related to your "age of devilry", I watched this presentation on the Yugas:



Interestingly the scholar maintains that some people have the dates of the yugas wrong and that the correct timing shows that the last kali yuga finished in 500 AD*. We are currently in an ascending phase of a new "bronze age" Dwapar yuga. In contrast to yourself he takes the technological and scientific growth of the past thousand years to be a positive sign in alignment with the increasing mental virtue associated with coming out of the kali yuga.

*correction: 500 AD is the lowest point of the last kali yuga and it finished in 1700 AD.


It is interesting, thanks for sharing. I myself subscribe to the idea that natural man cannot help but descend into a downward cycle, and that his technological and scientific hubris are a sign of that downward spiral, not a sign of ascent and mental virtue. This video could well be the result of the influence of Western Civilization's Promethean Optimism at work, which leaves no other culture untouched these days.

We (Mankind in the whole world) today are embedded within a Civilization, Spengler's ''Faustian''(Western) Civilization that believes that we are indeed on an ascent, which they hope to be permanent, to break any possible cycle and expand out into the cosmos, ever expanding and ever evolving higher and higher. I suspect however at it's core, there is no longer such a belief in the heart among the Western Elites, but it lumbers on pushing them onwards none the less.

Believe me, the Pagan and Hindu/Vedic/Buddhistic Cycles are more pessimistic in a sense than I ever could be, because being a Christian (Spengler's ''Magian'', along with the other Monotheists) these ages wind up to an End, the Second Coming, where thereafter there shall be no end of the direct Reign of God, where the Kingdom of God lives in all hearts and literally exists in this world forever.

What this video does show inadvertently is that man does not have a universal culture (although the Faustian aspires to it) but is possessed presently of several cultures with competing worldviews. I happen to believe that the worldview i've had all my life happens to be the correct one, and that my position within the Western culture (like that of all true Christians) affords me a certain objective vantage point from which to analyze Western decline dispassionately.

If we are to discuss these matters, I must remind you that in previous conversations with ''Pagans'' (not saying you are of that sort or not) that I believe very literally in the beings they claim to worship, but do not of course worship them or ascribe to their deceits, for deceivers they are. What I have found however, is that most ''pagans'' I have come across do not believe in the existence of the beings they follow, their worldview is more a kind of ''Atheism in drag'' if you will, Nietzsche plus pagan rituals or whatever. I however take paganism seriously at least, just as my Christian forebears would in the early centuries of the Faith.

I would also remind you that I am also quite serious about the ideas expressed at the beginning of this thread, that cosmologically I live in a very different universe than most in the modern age, and therefore do not believe in the standard assumptions of the modern cult of ''science'', either.

Thanks again :) ;)
#14996408
annatar1914 wrote:It is interesting, thanks for sharing. I myself subscribe to the idea that natural man cannot help but descend into a downward cycle, and that his technological and scientific hubris are a sign of that downward spiral, not a sign of ascent and mental virtue. This video could well be the result of the influence of Western Civilization's Promethean Optimism at work, which leaves no other culture untouched these days.

You are welcome.

annatar1914 wrote:We (Mankind in the whole world) today are embedded within a Civilization, Spengler's ''Faustian''(Western) Civilization that believes that we are indeed on an ascent, which they hope to be permanent, to break any possible cycle and expand out into the cosmos, ever expanding and ever evolving higher and higher. I suspect however at it's core, there is no longer such a belief in the heart among the Western Elites, but it lumbers on pushing them onwards none the less.

Does Elon Musk count as a "western elite"? The ascent is conspicuous looking at where we are now and looking back from where we have come though whether we can keep it going or whether some mischance will knock us back down remains as unknowable as the future must be.

annatar1914 wrote:Believe me, the Pagan and Hindu/Vedic/Buddhistic Cycles are more pessimistic in a sense than I ever could be, because being a Christian (Spengler's ''Magian'', along with the other Monotheists) these ages wind up to an End, the Second Coming, where thereafter there shall be no end of the direct Reign of God, where the Kingdom of God lives in all hearts and literally exists in this world forever.

That the cosmos is built on cycles is almost a trivial observation given how ubiquitous they are but that doesn't mean nothing ever ends or that nothing truly new appears. I am not so familiar with Indian cosmologies but in the nordic cosmology the universe does eventually come to a rather gloomy end in the Ragnarok though there are versions of the prophecy that put a rebirth on the end of it. In current science the mainstream cosmology is that the universe will eventually spread out so thin and be so entropic that literally nothing exists or can exist anymore and that is a pretty gloomy end too. On the bright side we can expect to have trillions of years of adventures in the interim.

annatar1914 wrote:What this video does show inadvertently is that man does not have a universal culture (although the Faustian aspires to it) but is possessed presently of several cultures with competing worldviews. I happen to believe that the worldview i've had all my life happens to be the correct one, and that my position within the Western culture (like that of all true Christians) affords me a certain objective vantage point from which to analyze Western decline dispassionately.

I don't know that you are that objective moreover it may be that the "decline of the west" is oversold and anyway like as not the east will carry on where we left off anyway.

annatar1914 wrote:If we are to discuss these matters, I must remind you that in previous conversations with ''Pagans'' (not saying you are of that sort or not) that I believe very literally in the beings they claim to worship, but do not of course worship them or ascribe to their deceits, for deceivers they are. What I have found however, is that most ''pagans'' I have come across do not believe in the existence of the beings they follow, their worldview is more a kind of ''Atheism in drag'' if you will, Nietzsche plus pagan rituals or whatever. I however take paganism seriously at least, just as my Christian forebears would in the early centuries of the Faith.

I doubt it is a majority actually but I am sure there are some like that indeed but I don't think it is necessarily such a disreputable thing. Truly there is not really any such thing as "paganism" because that is a word Christians invented for anything including atheism which was not Christian. People are rebooting the word and usually with a revivalist angle for lost religions but some are less interested in lost beliefs so much as the lost practices and those may be happy to remain atheist, I'm quite okay with that. I won't derail your thread with an exposition on where I am right now in any depth here because it would be a rather long, complicated and contradictory story; but I guess I am a bit of a pantheist with a nordic leaning.

annatar1914 wrote:
I would also remind you that I am also quite serious about the ideas expressed at the beginning of this thread, that cosmologically I live in a very different universe than most in the modern age, and therefore do not believe in the standard assumptions of the modern cult of ''science'', either.

Thanks again :) ;)

Yeah I can see that and I will try to be respectful of that though as you probably appreciate that for me it is quite a stretch. If you will forgive me for saying so it makes me think of our vedic scholar of the yugas and his timeline in which, as it happens, both Christianity and Islam are religions of the Kali Yuga, whether they were the light in the darkness or the darkness itself is not so very obvious.
#14996414
@SolarCross

Thanks for your gracious and thoughtful remarks and replies.

Does Elon Musk count as a "western elite"?


I'd say so, although an outlier in some respects which I needn't go into at this juncture.



The ascent is conspicuous looking at where we are now and looking back from where we have come though whether we can keep it going or whether some mischance will knock us back down remains as unknowable as the future must be.


I trust the teachings and the prophesies, although I'm sure many things will surprise me, and that's not a bad thing.

That the cosmos is built on cycles is almost a trivial observation given how ubiquitous they are but that doesn't mean nothing ever ends or that nothing truly new appears. I am not so familiar with Indian cosmologies but in the nordic cosmology the universe does eventually come to a rather gloomy end in the Ragnarok though there are versions of the prophecy that put a rebirth on the end of it. In current science the mainstream cosmology is that the universe will eventually spread out so thin and be so entropic that literally nothing exists or can exist anymore and that is a pretty gloomy end too. On the bright side we can expect to have trillions of years of adventures in the interim.


Western/Faustian Cosmology and worldview basically comes from the Germanic in origin, modified by the Magian/Christian influences but ultimately mastering them. Of that I'll have more to say, going beyond Spengler and others, so stick around ;) . I happen to have studied Germanic Mythology and legend for decades now, so it'll be a pleasure to talk about a little.


I don't know that you are that objective moreover it may be that the "decline of the west" is oversold and anyway like as not the east will carry on where we left off anyway.


One can look from both ends of a telescope but only one end provides the proper vision. That being said; ''Light comes from the East''.


I doubt it is a majority actually but I am sure there are some like that indeed but I don't think it is necessarily such a disreputable thing. Truly there is not really any such thing as "paganism" because that is a word Christians invented for anything including atheism which was not Christian. People are rebooting the word and usually with a revivalist angle for lost religions but some are less interested in lost beliefs so much as the lost practices and those may be happy to remain atheist, I'm quite okay with that. I won't derail your thread with an exposition on where I am right now in any depth here because it would be a rather long, complicated and contradictory story; but I guess I am a bit of a pantheist with a nordic leaning.


Well, you may be interested to know that I predict a full blown pagan revival in the coming centuries. the ''Why''? of that I'll go into later also.

Yeah I can see that and I will try to be respectful of that though as you probably appreciate that for me it is quite a stretch. If you will forgive me for saying so it makes me think of our vedic scholar of the yugas and his timeline in which, as it happens, both Christianity and Islam are religions of the Kali Yuga, whether they were the light in the darkness or the darkness itself is not so very obvious.


Again, I think we can have a courteous discussion on these matters. :)
#14996469
annatar1914 wrote:Western/Faustian Cosmology and worldview basically comes from the Germanic in origin, modified by the Magian/Christian influences but ultimately mastering them. Of that I'll have more to say, going beyond Spengler and others, so stick around ;) . I happen to have studied Germanic Mythology and legend for decades now, so it'll be a pleasure to talk about a little.

Okay though I think as far as cosmology goes the hellenics contributed rather more than the germanics at least in the early days. After Germanics militarily conqoured Rome and Rome culturally conquored the Germanics there emerges a Hellenic/Germanic fusion though they both fall later to the Christians for centuries. From the renaissance and thereafter that Hellenic/Germanic fusion revives with arguably the Germanics increasingly taking the lead given how often the great scientists are of a Germanic culture. I suppose the Turks are to blame for that for devouring Greece preventing a reflowering of Hellenism for so many centuries.

annatar1914 wrote:Well, you may be interested to know that I predict a full blown pagan revival in the coming centuries. the ''Why''? of that I'll go into later also.

Yes I also see that happening in Europe at least. As to the "why" my perception is that the spell that Christianity held over us for so long broke when they demanded we give up science for their dogma. This was the test of Galileo and Giordano Bruno. Increasingly we are choosing science but science is only half a religion because a religion should be about practice as well as cosmology. There is an element of nostalgia perhaps too but we can look at our old religions from before Christianity and see a practice that suited us but which offers no serious conflict with the cosmology of science. That allows us to have our cake and eat it.

annatar1914 wrote:Again, I think we can have a courteous discussion on these matters. :)

I hope so. :)
#14996558
SolarCross wrote:Okay though I think as far as cosmology goes the hellenics contributed rather more than the germanics at least in the early days. After Germanics militarily conqoured Rome and Rome culturally conquored the Germanics there emerges a Hellenic/Germanic fusion though they both fall later to the Christians for centuries. From the renaissance and thereafter that Hellenic/Germanic fusion revives with arguably the Germanics increasingly taking the lead given how often the great scientists are of a Germanic culture. I suppose the Turks are to blame for that for devouring Greece preventing a reflowering of Hellenism for so many centuries.


Yes I also see that happening in Europe at least. As to the "why" my perception is that the spell that Christianity held over us for so long broke when they demanded we give up science for their dogma. This was the test of Galileo and Giordano Bruno. Increasingly we are choosing science but science is only half a religion because a religion should be about practice as well as cosmology. There is an element of nostalgia perhaps too but we can look at our old religions from before Christianity and see a practice that suited us but which offers no serious conflict with the cosmology of science. That allows us to have our cake and eat it.


I hope so. :)


Well, I'll go into the ''why?'' of it all a little later, set things up, but I'll show quite a different perspective to be sure.
#14996573



I think that I have made many mistakes in political and historical judgement in the past, and this has weighed on my mind for some time. One must be on one side of the divide or the other, one cannot straddle both.

Ob'yem pamyati, pamyat...

Slava Bogu chto tebya nashel Rossiya!
#14998342
@Victoribus Spolia, @SolarCross , @Political Interest;



A Christian can live under any political system, and often has. The Church is the Church, and the Power is the Power. Whether or not It is in Christian hands, if It is not actively treasonous of it's own land and people, it is to be obeyed in all things.... Except Sin, trying to force or encourage sin.

But, Collapse is coming and Barbarism is to be preferred to the Civilization that is corrupting Mankind today, Satanic attempts to erase the very meaning of what it is to be human. But where did it start, these attacks? What foundations did they undermine? I will examine three pillars of a healthy society in the next few posts, relating them to what I have said before;

1. Capitalism

2. Monarchy/Patriarchy

3. Faith

But the rest of this post will cover Capitalism, I welcome questions or comments, insights of a general or specific nature, on this;

Capitalism is the best socio-economic system possible in this fallen world, an ethical Capitalism that abhors luxury and improvidence alike, encourages thrift, sobriety, industriousness, honest and fair dealings, discourages short term thinking and laziness. Yes, the love of Money is the root of all Evil, and the Rich are wicked by definition, but how exactly does Money become Antichrist, and the Wealthy the Partisans of Satan, if what I have said is true, about Capitalism being the best possible system?

Next post I'll tackle that.
#14999280
annatar1914 wrote:@Victoribus Spolia, @SolarCross , @Political Interest;



A Christian can live under any political system, and often has. The Church is the Church, and the Power is the Power. Whether or not It is in Christian hands, if It is not actively treasonous of it's own land and people, it is to be obeyed in all things.... Except Sin, trying to force or encourage sin.

But, Collapse is coming and Barbarism is to be preferred to the Civilization that is corrupting Mankind today, Satanic attempts to erase the very meaning of what it is to be human. But where did it start, these attacks? What foundations did they undermine? I will examine three pillars of a healthy society in the next few posts, relating them to what I have said before;

1. Capitalism

2. Monarchy/Patriarchy

3. Faith

But the rest of this post will cover Capitalism, I welcome questions or comments, insights of a general or specific nature, on this;

Capitalism is the best socio-economic system possible in this fallen world, an ethical Capitalism that abhors luxury and improvidence alike, encourages thrift, sobriety, industriousness, honest and fair dealings, discourages short term thinking and laziness. Yes, the love of Money is the root of all Evil, and the Rich are wicked by definition, but how exactly does Money become Antichrist, and the Wealthy the Partisans of Satan, if what I have said is true, about Capitalism being the best possible system?

Next post I'll tackle that.



As promised, I'm looking at Capitalism. IF the free market is the only possible system of exchange that will work given fallen human nature, it still behooves those of us who fight for Equity and Justice to expect the Social outcome to still resemble the desired outcome of Socialism.

Doesn't seem very ''pro-capitalistic'', does it? Make of it what one will, call it what you will,because the primary aim of a good and truly Christian society is still Justice and Equity, not the love of and pursuit of money.

Heavily taxed, not allowed to advertise in the modern sense, and regulated as to financial speculation and prevention of Usury...

Guess a Marxist would still call me as being within at the very least what Engels referred to as ''Right Wing Socialism''.
#15003324
Since the last time I really posted on this thread, I've thought about making clear some things that at first I believed were ancillary to a discussion of our ''Age of Devilry'', as i've called it. This is a spiritual and cultural discussion, but to be sure it's touched on the political consequences of spiritual and cultural matters.

One of these issues is that of Israel/Palestine and the Middle East. ''What sides are you on?'' in these conflicts some might ask.

Well, I'm not really on anybody's ''side'', although I have condemned some Israeli actions and praised the resistance of the SAA and the people of Syria to would-be Jihadi conquerors. See, it's the modern state, and Faustian civilization in particular, that is to blame.

Sykes-Picot treaty, anyone? I see in the Middle East something that is not entirely wrong-tribes and alliances of tribes, against various strains of Islamist Jihadi and Alien interloper. Everyone is tribal, as i've said before. We in the West tend to mask it, deny it, but we are. Even when we deny it, in the very act of doing so we create synthetic simulacra of tribes and kinship groups to belong to. In other lands, many people aren't quite so artificially cosmopolitan and rootless as we can be.

So Jewish tribes returning to the Holy Land is for God to decide the justice of, although injustice against non-Jews is clear. And with the worldwide collapse of the modern state, who knows what will survive?

I may criticize national governments, and I may criticize what I consider to be false religions and cultural problems, bad ideologies and political nonsense, but I will always look at people through the personalist lens of families and extended kinship and friendship groups to get to the heart of things.
#15005424
@Victoribus Spolia, @Rei Murasame, and others ;

March 1st, I started this thread, and I'm going to wrap it up tonight. I said at first that;

I reject the Modern credos and manifestos which hallmark this rotten era.

I affirm the Symbol of Faith, the Nicene Creed, and all the Canons and Decrees of the Seven Ecumenical Councils and subsequent Councils and Synods of the Ancient Orthodox Church, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and the canons and decrees of the same.


Pretty much firm on this, even more so.

I reject the Modern State, even if out of prudence and human respect for earthly authority I submit in all things except sin.


After all, what God wills He wills for the best, in His mercy.

I affirm the rightful rule of Right-Believing Kings and Queens, of the God anointed and enlightened Orthodox Tsar, even though I know that today we are in an Interregnum with no Tsar, and possibly Antichrist will be shortly revealed as such unto the Elect of God.


I still don't know if this is an interregnum period, a long and chaotic anomaly of a historical point in time, or very much the Last Days. Either way, one has to be prepared.

I reject all of the modern ideologies as being corrupt and delusional fruits of the same wicked tree, which is rebellion against God, and the division and mutual slaughter of mankind.


All the ''Isms'' in fact, each and every one.

I affirm the righteous ways of life rather than these ways of death, and so I regard the insight of the Scripture and other Holy Tradition as the rule of proper and peaceful Christian society and of the Christian person, as it was yesterday, today, and tomorrow, ever-young and salvific.


I do not, as I indicate here, respect mere human tradition for the sake of tradition.

I regard and reject sin as sin, and to be party to or condone sin is to be as if one was committing the evil itself. They may kill me, but they will not get me to admit that theft and murder and envy and fornication, are not those things.


Everyone deep down knows the truth.

I reject the hatred and fear of other peoples, or attempts and enslavement and extermination of other peoples.

I affirm the right of every tribe, clan, and kingdom to live as they see fit with whom they see fit, or set limits to whom they will associate with, and defend their culture and society from invasion.


Since I believe my ideas are organic and reality based, there is no impulse on my part to spread my political beliefs by force, I just will suggest practical and common sense things to others.

I reject the theory of evolution as presently understood by many in the modern age, and the commonly accepted cosmology of this modern age.

I affirm the creation by God of the Universe in six days, and that the Earth is the center of the Universe, which rotates around it. This same Earth is a little more than 7000 years old, and more years it may well have although it s hard to see how much longer we can endure without the Lord's intervention.


There is no ''Progress''.

I expect mockery and misunderstanding, hatred and venom and ridicule. Even icy silence. It has always been thus, and it is what true Christians can expect, to be regarded as insane, reactionary, foolish, and the enemies of humanity and it's ''progress''.

For those I expect to believe as I have laid out, your ''progress'' and ideologies all are one with the proud Giants who perished in the Flood, and the wicked of Sodom and Gommorah who perished in the fires cast upon the Cities of the Plain. One with the Rebellion of Korah and Dathan and fated like they were to be cast into the eternal fires of an everlasting Hell.


But, people have free will, they will choose what they will, this is not something that can ultimately be stopped, nor should it be, except to prevent evils on you and yours.


And so, as my subtitle suggests, in this Age of Devilry, science divorced from truth, from spirit. Flesh divorced from reason and enslaved to the disordered passions, one must (to borrow an analogy or symbol) from the pirates of old; ''raise the black flag''. Not of the Demoniac Muhammad to be sure, not his black flag, but one in which no quarter is given to the sinful structures of this filthy and decaying era.


Spiritual warfare is striking to true root of evil, and it begins by striking at the root of evil within oneself.

We will escape you if we must, hide in the wildernesses literal and figurative out in the world. Where we are still strong we will do battle and oppose you, if nowhere else than in the recesses of our own hearts.

You know that this era is crashing down; this even explains your doubling down, ye Moderns, on your lunacies and your lusts, you know that your time is short.


And it is a real war, this spiritual war, with eternal consequences.

I wrote this because I've had enough, i've had way too much consideration for mere human respect and consideration, in ''feelings'' instead of bearing witness to the truth. It may well be that from me the rest you will hear is Silence, but that silence will speak louder than my years here of multiplication of words.


This is very true. A time may come when I reject ''Politics'', the ''affairs of the Polis'' or ''City'', entirely.

A war is coming soon, very soon, in which global modern civilization will collapse and the greater part of mankind in many parts of the world will die, of the coming war and the attendant implosion of the world economy. Judgement is not delayed forever, the balance will once again be restored that favors the natural, the organic, the traditional development of existence. Those already closer to that and not to Civilization, those not cut off by an artificial, superfluous, and over-specialized existence, will survive. And even know a renewed measure of happiness and thrive under these changed conditions. The Righteous man is persecuted like Lot was in the midst of Sodom, living amidst the spiritual darkness of the Urban Petrifact. And like him we will be called to come out of the city of the wicked, someday.


Exactly so.
#15016183
I had intended some time back to give this thread a rest, all the thinking through certain concepts had already been done, except one, the reason for politics, the ''What is to be done?''

Recall that for me one modern, Oswald Spengler, had the problem of modern civilization fully understood; that it is a Western phenomenon and as he calls it quite rightly, the ''Faustian Civilization''.

I have just never fully been part of it myself, at heart. For one of the problems of this civilization is the need on the part of many to be ''world-improvers'', that all is needed is the right application of Force and Mass in the right manner, and anything is possible that we desire to ''make the world a better place'', that ''we are all Socialists'' after a fashion now. The whole civilization is revolutionary.

So the concept i'm thinking about is Politics itself, in the sense of it being something that needs to ''get done'' to ''make the world a better place''... Elsewhere here on this thread i've discussed the Western penchant for the Machine, as Spengler so ably points out. Well, in the Faustian/Western civilization, government is the machine, while political ideology is the instruction manual, and human beings are the moving parts of the Machine or that which is being acted upon by government.

When I was a reactionary, I always tried to either not want the government to do anything or have it prevent defensively the actions of any would-be ''World Improvers'', even my flirtation with Socialism had more the feeling of preventing something awful than having a blueprint for a new world in hand, ready to apply. Ultimately I couldn't commit, I always expected God will be the One to bring about His Justice, His Way.

So now, I am of the feeling that for me, ''politics'' is at an end. What has taken it's place is a metaphysics, alien to the basic irreligious religion of the Faustian ''Socialist''. The World will not get better, it will only get worse, as the war between Good and Evil goes on. And people will make their choices for Good and for Evil, Life and Death, Light and Darkness, regardless if they foolishly believe that they alone can arbitrarily make of those concepts what they will individually.What is real is the Cosmic conflict that each person must take part in, that each person was born into.

Politics as the modern sees it is at an end, dying with the West that has spawned it. It was never real to begin with. Nothing is new under the sun, nothing truly changes in this Time.

That doesn't mean i'm leaving this forum, I'll always have something to say.
#15017643
Another aspect of (what I've come to realize) dealing with my position as a Christian in these Final Days, is that of ''Israel''. Most on this forum know that I violently oppose what passes for ''Christian Zionism'' and a woefully misbegotten American foreign policy in the Middle East that only appears to hinge on an alleged ''Pro-Israel'' stance.

I also note that my Christian theology is antithetical to ''Judaism'' as such just as it would be with any other religion that i'd necessarily regard as false, as being contrary to my Orthodox Christian Faith. In fact with Judaism in particular there is more antipathy on my part, with a recognition that they and I are still speaking of the Old Testament God of Israel, being God, whatever else is believed.

With all of this setting the stage, however, I must say that I support a Jewish Homeland in the Holy Land, where before I most emphatically did not. What I think are the consequences of this gradual change of heart I will address in later posts, in light of the general theme of this thread and with careful reflection prior. But in conclusion of this post, I can state that part of this change involves the following meta-historical factors;

I. The general trend of self hating liberal Jews and the Left in particular, to seek to destroy Israel, and ally with all forces opposed to Zionism, subverting Israel from within. Related is the growing Anti-Semitism of the Left and the growing divide between Diaspora Jews and Zionist Jews worldwide.

II. The essential and growing unity of Islam, The Third World, the Secular Left, and Roman Catholicism/Protestantism/Western Christianity, not only regarding Israel but also on almost all other issues.

I will address these in my next post on this thread.

III. The worldwide collapse of civilization and the growing Anti-Christian sentiment worldwide.
#15017653
annatar1914 wrote:Another aspect of (what I've come to realize) dealing with my position as a Christian in these Final Days, is that of ''Israel''. Most on this forum know that I violently oppose what passes for ''Christian Zionism'' and a woefully misbegotten American foreign policy in the Middle East that only appears to hinge on an alleged ''Pro-Israel'' stance.

I also note that my Christian theology is antithetical to ''Judaism'' as such just as it would be with any other religion that i'd necessarily regard as false, as being contrary to my Orthodox Christian Faith. In fact with Judaism in particular there is more antipathy on my part, with a recognition that they and I are still speaking of the Old Testament God of Israel, being God, whatever else is believed.

With all of this setting the stage, however, I must say that I support a Jewish Homeland in the Holy Land, where before I most emphatically did not. What I think are the consequences of this gradual change of heart I will address in later posts, in light of the general theme of this thread and with careful reflection prior. But in conclusion of this post, I can state that part of this change involves the following meta-historical factors;

I. The general trend of self hating liberal Jews and the Left in particular, to seek to destroy Israel, and ally with all forces opposed to Zionism, subverting Israel from within. Related is the growing Anti-Semitism of the Left and the growing divide between Diaspora Jews and Zionist Jews worldwide.

II. The essential and growing unity of Islam, The Third World, the Secular Left, and Roman Catholicism/Protestantism/Western Christianity, not only regarding Israel but also on almost all other issues.

I will address these in my next post on this thread.

III. The worldwide collapse of civilization and the growing Anti-Christian sentiment worldwide.

I imagine that Israel may be getting used as a "canary in a coal mine." While most of the rest of the world is regulating their population growth to some degree, most Muslims countries are not doing so and this likely poses some very real potential issues for future generations. If Islamic fundamentalism ever materializes into a (larger?) scale world-wide threat, Israel is probably going to be their first target because Muhammad apparently said a lot of mean things about Jews according to the haditha, even though the Qur'an is arguably more measured and tells Muslims not to use haditha. But I digress...

I also think that the degree to which Christianity is incompatible with Judaism ultimately rests upon what kind of Christianity and what kind of Judaism. There is even a "Jews for Jesus" movement that is basically a Christian-like interpretation of the Old Testament, although this is not a very large group it is significant enough to note. All intellectually interesting stuff.

I was thinking some time ago that religions are, if not always explicitly, an aggregation over time of traditional knowledge. This is probably a lot clearer in Orthodox Christianity, which is also probably more distinct from Judaism than western Christianity tends to be. How ironic it is that when I was young, it looked like western Christianity would endure and Orthodox Christianity would disappear, yet now it's looking like the opposite is true.

Some people have argued that due to its (arguably) less directly traditional nature, western Christianity suffers from some weak points that have led to its decline. Its reinvention in America as Evangelicalism and even more so as Mormonism might help to explain its greater vitality in those regions.

What I mean by all of this is that if you read the histories of pagan Gods and their relationships with each other, you can see an emergent philosophy. More explicitly in Hinduism, it's perceived that all of these pagan Gods become the overall God when they're combined. I suspect that this kind of dialogue also makes a little bit of sense in Orthodox Christianity but it doesn't really fly with western Christianity because of how Roman Catholicism was modified through ongoing contact with the western pagans of different kinds, ultimately winning out but also making changes that were arguably not as contextual with the mostly Byzantine context of the Bible.

Getting back to Muslims and Israel again, it might be worth noting that we are arguably approaching the Muslim end times (of course, this is not the first time this could be argued as having happened). If/when western Europe becomes Muslim, they will (1) seek to Islamify Rome as that is described in a Hadith regarding the end times and it will be a heretical thing right next to them, (2) western Muslims, much like the Turks and all other significantly powerful non-Arab Muslim groups, will naturally try to extend their authority over Mecca because of Islam's presumption of a unification of temporal and spiritual power, a situation that will undoubtedly result in Muslims causing each other even more seemingly needless suffering.
#15017778
@Hong Wu ,

Hello Hong Wu, and thanks for your reply! You said;


I imagine that Israel may be getting used as a "canary in a coal mine." While most of the rest of the world is regulating their population growth to some degree, most Muslims countries are not doing so and this likely poses some very real potential issues for future generations.



Well, what I can't ignore, while being aware of the general Rabbinical/Judaic antipathy for the Christian Sect at present, I also cannot ignore the trends in the world today, nor the Eschatology of Islam which I take at least as seriously as religious Muslims do... If the consequence of this places Israeli Jews in a certain position undreamed of by Herzl or Hess or Kalischer, or even Ben-Gurion, then I have to at least look at the issue in light of my faith's teachings even if nobody else does.



If Islamic fundamentalism ever materializes into a (larger?) scale world-wide threat, Israel is probably going to be their first target because Muhammad apparently said a lot of mean things about Jews according to the haditha, even though the Qur'an is arguably more measured and tells Muslims not to use haditha. But I digress...


I think it's debatable, but for the moment I'll put that to the side so to speak, to possibly take up later in discussion. There's a reason I have this post and my previous one here on this thread and not elsewhere.

I also think that the degree to which Christianity is incompatible with Judaism ultimately rests upon what kind of Christianity and what kind of Judaism. There is even a "Jews for Jesus" movement that is basically a Christian-like interpretation of the Old Testament, although this is not a very large group it is significant enough to note. All intellectually interesting stuff.


This is an old heresy, one that St. Paul among others fought, that in it's present manifestation owes more to peculiarities of Protestant Christian belief than anything else. Of course I would say as an Orthodox Christian that the Old Testament and it's interpretation belongs to us in reality, as it speaks prophetically of Christ in our teaching.

I was thinking some time ago that religions are, if not always explicitly, an aggregation over time of traditional knowledge. This is probably a lot clearer in Orthodox Christianity, which is also probably more distinct from Judaism than western Christianity tends to be. How ironic it is that when I was young, it looked like western Christianity would endure and Orthodox Christianity would disappear, yet now it's looking like the opposite is true.


I agree to a degree about this with you, believing naturally that Orthodox Christianity will endure until His Return.

Some people have argued that due to its (arguably) less directly traditional nature, western Christianity suffers from some weak points that have led to its decline. Its reinvention in America as Evangelicalism and even more so as Mormonism might help to explain its greater vitality in those regions.


Here too I definitely agree, although I see Mormonism as every bit as a 'Christian heresy' as I view Islam as being, no more and really no less so. Mormonism may well win over America in time, and elsewhere, for reasons I might well also elaborate on somewhat later.

What I mean by all of this is that if you read the histories of pagan Gods and their relationships with each other, you can see an emergent philosophy. More explicitly in Hinduism, it's perceived that all of these pagan Gods become the overall God when they're combined. I suspect that this kind of dialogue also makes a little bit of sense in Orthodox Christianity but it doesn't really fly with western Christianity because of how Roman Catholicism was modified through ongoing contact with the western pagans of different kinds, ultimately winning out but also making changes that were arguably not as contextual with the mostly Byzantine context of the Bible.


The Orthodox view is that as Scripture says and the Fathers concur; ''all the gods of the gentiles are devils''. As such, I doubt what they proclaim themselves as, not their existence. The late Pagan Hellenistic Syncretism of ancient times among the Greco-Romans was similar to Hinduism, came under pressure from Monotheism and thus was explicitly Pantheistic at it's intellectual base. Fact is, most of Mankind is, was, and always will be to the end, quite ''pagan'' in our relationship with spiritual realities.

Getting back to Muslims and Israel again, it might be worth noting that we are arguably approaching the Muslim end times (of course, this is not the first time this could be argued as having happened). If/when western Europe becomes Muslim, they will (1) seek to Islamify Rome as that is described in a Hadith regarding the end times and it will be a heretical thing right next to them, (2) western Muslims, much like the Turks and all other significantly powerful non-Arab Muslim groups, will naturally try to extend their authority over Mecca because of Islam's presumption of a unification of temporal and spiritual power, a situation that will undoubtedly result in Muslims causing each other even more seemingly needless suffering.


Again, I quite agree and will go even further. In Muslim Eschatology, ''Dajjal al-Mastih'' is the ''Lying Christ'' who performs miracles saying that he is God, and is opposed by the Islamic Mahdi and the Islamic version of Jesus, together against ''Dajjal''. Of ''Dajjal'' it is also said that he will be supported by the Jews and Non-Muslims. As a Christian who of course believes in the Return of Christ, I can only draw certain conclusions if those persons from Islamic End Times prophesy appear with their own claims demanding belief...
#15017792
annatar1914 wrote:@Hong Wu ,

Here too I definitely agree, although I see Mormonism as every bit as a 'Christian heresy' as I view Islam as being, no more and really no less so. Mormonism may well win over America in time, and elsewhere, for reasons I might well also elaborate on somewhat later.



The Orthodox view is that as Scripture says and the Fathers concur; ''all the gods of the gentiles are devils''. As such, I doubt what they proclaim themselves as, not their existence. The late Pagan Hellenistic Syncretism of ancient times among the Greco-Romans was similar to Hinduism, came under pressure from Monotheism and thus was explicitly Pantheistic at it's intellectual base. Fact is, most of Mankind is, was, and always will be to the end, quite ''pagan'' in our relationship with spiritual realities.

As I understand it though, the New Testament was largely a canonization of contemporary Byzantine folk stories, is that correct? If so, the inspirations and philosophies of previous Greco-Roman paganism, such as the Goddess Sophia which is even mentioned in the Bible, should not be discounted, even if specific worship of them is.
#15017880
@Hong Wu


As I understand it though, the New Testament was largely a canonization of contemporary Byzantine folk stories, is that correct?


No, they weren't a ''canonization'' of ''contemporary 'Byzantine' folk stories'', nor is it fair to describe what was the Eastern division of the Roman Empire in terms invented by 18th century Western Scholars.

People don't live and die by ''folk stories'', but by Who and by what they determine to be true.


If so, the inspirations and philosophies of previous Greco-Roman paganism, such as the Goddess Sophia which is even mentioned in the Bible,


Wisdom, or ''Sophia'', is actually the male pre-Incarnate Son of God, the Word or ''Logos'' of God, not a ''Goddess''.


should not be discounted, even if specific worship of them is.


Gnosticism was rightfully condemned, speaking of ''folk tales'' full of all manner of Supernal beings, as just so much imaginary and often extreme matter-hating nonsense, but it resurfaces from time to time in the West.

Speaking of which, I am reminded again of Mormonism, and Israel, and Islam, and tying it all in with the primary considerations of this thread.... That shall be the subject of my next post, promise ;)
  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8

Putin previously proposed to sign the peace treaty[…]

Ah, so the amount of cops who have ties to white […]

No one cares about your opinion. There is eviden[…]

Cambodia's Prime Minister denied the secret deal […]