Ivan Ilyin Quotation - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15087410
The great Russian philosopher Ivan Ilyin wrote: "The level of expressed religiosity and the amount of actual religion are often in inverse proportion to one another. That’s to say, those with loudest professions often have the least actuality."

I have noticed this myself over the years. There are people who seem to treat religion almost like a toy.
#15092113
Political Interest wrote:The great Russian philosopher Ivan Ilyin wrote: "The level of expressed religiosity and the amount of actual religion are often in inverse proportion to one another. That’s to say, those with loudest professions often have the least actuality."

I have noticed this myself over the years. There are people who seem to treat religion almost like a toy.


I have noticed this as well, hypocrisy seems to be encoded into the sinful human condition. One can say at least that the hypocrite still manages to pay some tribute to the Truth by at least pretending to hold to It, many people these days pride themselves in an 'honest' evil living...

Of course the context of Ilyin's comment I believe is embedded within the history of the Romanov Tsarist period's ''Holy Synod'' and an official partially state-run Russian Orthodoxy which was bound to generate a degree of cynicism and confusion over time.

At the same time, the most faithful and committed Russian Orthodox, the 'Old Believers' who practiced Orthodox Christianity as a way of life in totality, were marginalized and treated as outcasts at best and enemies of the State at worst, for much of that same period.
#15092128
annatar1914 wrote:I have noticed this as well, hypocrisy seems to be encoded into the sinful human condition. One can say at least that the hypocrite still manages to pay some tribute to the Truth by at least pretending to hold to It, many people these days pride themselves in an 'honest' evil living...


My biggest problems are not the physical sins, although I have these in great multitude but I worry about my sincerity. As I've said before, I don't think a lot of my political beliefs are compatible with my religious ones. When I conduct introspection I still feel the temptation of these incompatible beliefs and ideas. It makes me wonder how sick I am that I cannot properly repent. I always doubt my sincerity.

annatar1914 wrote:Of course the context of Ilyin's comment I believe is embedded within the history of the Romanov Tsarist period's ''Holy Synod'' and an official partially state-run Russian Orthodoxy which was bound to generate a degree of cynicism and confusion over time.


Is this type of critique a pronounced current in Russia?

annatar1914 wrote:At the same time, the most faithful and committed Russian Orthodox, the 'Old Believers' who practiced Orthodox Christianity as a way of life in totality, were marginalized and treated as outcasts at best and enemies of the State at worst, for much of that same period.


I would like to know more about the Old Believers.
#15092190
@Political Interest , thank you for your reply! I must tell you that this is entirely in keeping with the problems and issues that Ilyin and many others have debated and discussed over the years. You said;

My biggest problems are not the physical sins, although I have these in great multitude but I worry about my sincerity.


Those more spiritually aware than I have ever been or hope to be, have said that the struggle spiritually is such that the slightest awareness that one is struggling-even if one fails and gets right back up only to fall down again, and so on-is a sign that one is spiritually alive and not dead.


As I've said before, I don't think a lot of my political beliefs are compatible with my religious ones.


When I first came here, I was a reactionary monarchist and traditional roman catholic, and I had a true desire to at least hope for a return to the social and political order of the Middle Ages. But I was not alive spiritually. Now I am an Orthodox Christian, and my political and socio-economic ideals in recent years have been quite Socialist in practical terms. Now... They are changing into something else, something I'm not quite sure of just yet, but surely modified by recent events no doubt. You might say that I've noticed things in recent months that I had not perceived before in my life.

I have a feeling as modernity resolves itself into it's next phase as it is presently doing, my worldview will be more in sync internally and externally, politically/temporally and spiritually, along with many millions of other people's.


When I conduct introspection I still feel the temptation of these incompatible beliefs and ideas. It makes me wonder how sick I am that I cannot properly repent. I always doubt my sincerity.


The truly unrepentant are incapable of such introspection. They find themselves in a kind of false and horrific ''peace'' that all but buries doubts about what they are doing or failing to do in regards to the promptings of their conscience.


Is this type of critique a pronounced current in Russia?


It was at one time. The modern world being what it is, many are focused on simple survival. And that is actually a kind of strong wisdom in itself. My times there I find difficult to describe, except that there I had finally begun to understand the world as it truly is, not as I would necessarily imagine it to be. And this is something that is not easy for an American of my age and background to accept or embrace.



I would like to know more about the Old Believers.


They are simply as Russian Orthodox Christians were from the beginning in 988 AD with the baptism of Holy Rus, carrying on the traditions and way of life of their ancestors in a modern age as it was before the split in 1666 AD, in the face of centuries of savage persecution since then. This is a fairly good article on them, with links;

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Believers

And this particular group;

http://rpsc.ru/

http://en.rpsc.ru/

I am deeply sympathetic to them and have a familial connection as well, know a few personally. I have been thinking for some time of learning more and following their way of Christian life, if God so directs me. It will in any case involve a change of perspective in many ways.
#15093612
@annatar1914

Thank you very much for your response.

annatar1914 wrote:Those more spiritually aware than I have ever been or hope to be, have said that the struggle spiritually is such that the slightest awareness that one is struggling-even if one fails and gets right back up only to fall down again, and so on-is a sign that one is spiritually alive and not dead.


Is it true that the Orthodox believe that the struggle involves constant tripping over and standing up followed by more stumbling?

annatar1914 wrote:When I first came here, I was a reactionary monarchist and traditional roman catholic, and I had a true desire to at least hope for a return to the social and political order of the Middle Ages. But I was not alive spiritually. Now I am an Orthodox Christian, and my political and socio-economic ideals in recent years have been quite Socialist in practical terms. Now... They are changing into something else, something I'm not quite sure of just yet, but surely modified by recent events no doubt. You might say that I've noticed things in recent months that I had not perceived before in my life.


I am also unsure what I am. I am some type of strange eclectic mix of influences, many of them I would like to extirpate. Even this pandemic has provoked a lot of new thoughts and political feelings.

annatar1914 wrote:I have a feeling as modernity resolves itself into it's next phase as it is presently doing, my worldview will be more in sync internally and externally, politically/temporally and spiritually, along with many millions of other people's.


No doubt, our politics is perhaps a reflection of our own lives and our way of relating to the world. This will naturally develop as the global situation progresses through this new century.

annatar1914 wrote:The truly unrepentant are incapable of such introspection. They find themselves in a kind of false and horrific ''peace'' that all but buries doubts about what they are doing or failing to do in regards to the promptings of their conscience.


Thank you for this. Perhaps it is a good sign when one's conscience is causing them some type of internal suffering. What I have learnt over the years is that it is impossible to live in contradiction to one's conscience, it will literally drive a person insane.

annatar1914 wrote:It was at one time. The modern world being what it is, many are focused on simple survival. And that is actually a kind of strong wisdom in itself. My times there I find difficult to describe, except that there I had finally begun to understand the world as it truly is, not as I would necessarily imagine it to be. And this is something that is not easy for an American of my age and background to accept or embrace.


Then it is not merely my imagination, Russia is a land that has a type of mystical quality. I have had many dreams about visiting Russia, Ukraine or Belarus. I had always thought that if I were to go there I would have some type of experience. Someone told me that a visit there would be for me a life changing experience.

annatar1914 wrote:They are simply as Russian Orthodox Christians were from the beginning in 988 AD with the baptism of Holy Rus, carrying on the traditions and way of life of their ancestors in a modern age as it was before the split in 1666 AD, in the face of centuries of savage persecution since then. This is a fairly good article on them, with links;

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Believers

And this particular group;

http://rpsc.ru/

http://en.rpsc.ru/

I am deeply sympathetic to them and have a familial connection as well, know a few personally. I have been thinking for some time of learning more and following their way of Christian life, if God so directs me. It will in any case involve a change of perspective in many ways.


Thank you for this.

I wish I had their moral courage and discipline.
#15093705
Thank you very much for your response.


No problem, @Political Interest , I enjoy talking to you.



Is it true that the Orthodox believe that the struggle involves constant tripping over and standing up followed by more stumbling?


That's the way of life in the world, the ''old man is renewed day by day''. But ''he who runs the race to the end is saved''. A small step in the right direction is still a step in the right direction.


I am also unsure what I am. I am some type of strange eclectic mix of influences, many of them I would like to extirpate. Even this pandemic has provoked a lot of new thoughts and political feelings.


I have a core set of deeply held beliefs, but where I have trouble is in the application of those beliefs not so much in daily life but on a socio-political level. It is entirely possible however that it isn't up to me exactly, and I suspect that we are merely to act as a ''leaven in the dough'' as far as our relation to society goes. Better people, better families, leading to a healthier society.


No doubt, our politics is perhaps a reflection of our own lives and our way of relating to the world. This will naturally develop as the global situation progresses through this new century.


I think so. Interesting times we do live in.


Thank you for this. Perhaps it is a good sign when one's conscience is causing them some type of internal suffering. What I have learnt over the years is that it is impossible to live in contradiction to one's conscience, it will literally drive a person insane.


That's why I think people have to be more free to work out the dictates of their conscience, perhaps more free than I have previously believed them to be capable of being. But I'm thinking that that isn't exactly my judgement call either, to discern what they can or cannot do, only that they must.



Then it is not merely my imagination, Russia is a land that has a type of mystical quality. I have had many dreams about visiting Russia, Ukraine or Belarus. I had always thought that if I were to go there I would have some type of experience. Someone told me that a visit there would be for me a life changing experience.


It is at least in my experience, especially when I've returned to my native land afterwards.

On the Old Believers;



Thank you for this.

I wish I had their moral courage and discipline.


As do I, you're welcome.

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