[Besoeker]

Hmm. Ok .sure.but for the omnipresent part. Its a common misunderstanding among people within islam. God isnt everywhere. Basically god sees everywhere but doesnt exist everywhere.

I'm an atheist. From my POV, god doesn't exist anywhere.
But, if is infinite that would infer that he must exist everywhere. How else could he be infinite and see everywhere?

[anasawad]

Infinite in aspect of existence and power and knowledge and wizdom yes. But infinite in space ? God doesnt exist in our world . So our understanding of space and dimensions and all these things doesnt apply to god.

[Zionist Nationalist]

The concept of a "god" always looked weird to me

I mean there is more chance that things will happen randomly because you know things do happen randomly than some supernatural being that is the big brother of the universe and who is controlling and directing everything

[Besoeker]

Infinite in aspect of existence and power and knowledge and wizdom yes. But infinite in space ? God doesnt exist in our world . So our understanding of space and dimensions and all these things doesnt apply to god.

From the web:


omnipresent
ɒmnɪˈprɛz(ə)nt/Submit
adjective
(of God) present everywhere at the same time.

I don't see your justification for excluding space from everywhere. Or excluding god from existing in space.
Of course it isn't a problem I have to wrestle with. My view is much less convoluted.

[anasawad]

Well. I guess not everyone sees the world the same.
For me i was very convinced by how accuratly the world of today was described in quran and though i am sorrounded by people who literally dont give a shit about these things but i kept through.
In a way i not only believe in god but also admire hem.
Btw. With respect . But you see how athiests specially here on pofo are always very aggressive against religious people and many pf them hate religious people and religion. Those are literally kiddish level in comparison to ones in lebanon .

Besoeker. Yes. But in islam concern. God doesnt exists everywhere. There are 7 skies or heavens or not sure what they're called in english. We live in the first. God's thrown is abpve the 7th.

[Zionist Nationalist]

You know whats a different between a religion and a cult?

the amount of people who take part in this religion/cult

Islam is considered a religion because it have 1.5 billion followers

but if it had only 15,000 followers it would be considered a cult

if you look closely most cults are not that crazy if you compare them to the mainstream religions they are just small and thats why they are considered cults

you happen to be born in a Muslim society thats why you believe in Islam if you were born in a christian society you would admire Jesus and not Mohammed

[anasawad]

True. But to be fair i was born in a zoroastrian society and multicultural one. After that i experienced radical shia. Radical sunni. Christian and currently mostly athiest cultural group.
And i do have admiration for jesus. He is very important charactor in islam and one eith huge effect on the world.

[Besoeker]

Well. I guess not everyone sees the world the same.
For me i was very convinced by how accuratly the world of today was described in quran and though i am sorrounded by people who literally dont give a shit about these things but i kept through.
In a way i not only believe in god but also admire hem.
Btw. With respect . But you see how athiests specially here on pofo are always very aggressive against religious people and many pf them hate religious people and religion. Those are literally kiddish level in comparison to ones in lebanon .

I'm an atheist. I'm on here. I don't hate anything or anyone. I'm not agressive. Actually, the boot is firmly on the other foot on that score. The OP has wished physical harm to me, called me an idiot etc......

Besoeker. Yes. But in islam concern. God doesnt exists everywhere. There are 7 skies or heavens or not sure what they're called in english. We live in the first. God's thrown is abpve the 7th.

On what basis does Islam conclude that?

[Frollein]

@B: The fuck are you on about m8? Even for the omnipotent the only way to see something is for it to occur at some point.

So your god is not omniscient? Then he's inferior to the Christian god, who is omnipresent, omnipotent, omnoscient and all-benevolent.

Do you not understand the concept of analogy? Especially the type where you clarify an abstract concept by relating it to a relatable physical process?

for an analogy to be working, the compared premises must be analogous too. How is a limited, fallible, ignorant human being analogous to an eternal, infallible deity?

[anasawad]

Yea dude but have you been reading the attacks on other threads.??
Now i know there is hostility between groups. I my self hostile to some groups. But this is life. World is a hatefull place in reality so bare it to live and enjoy it.

Its mentioned clearly everywhere. In quran and hadith. God does not exist everywhere

[Besoeker]

Its mentioned clearly everywhere. In quran and hadith. God does not exist everywhere

But on what basis is that claim made?

[Frollein]

How is a finite being that is neither omnipresent nor omniscient and therefore, also not omnipotent, even electable for veneration? I mean, looking around, his track record is abysmal, unless you view poverty, ignorance, bloodshed, exploitation, illness and destruction as proof of excellence on the job.

[Paul Sanderson]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough there. I did't mean the people themselves are impure, I meant the theology is not purely about God. There is a distraction to an "associate", a secondary and even tertiary partner in godhood. Islam is the only religion, I've ever come across that is purely about God.

In Christianity, the Trinity is all part of the one God. Worshipping Jesus is seen as the same thing as worshipping God the Father. No one worships the Holy Spirit from what I understand. From this, you might conclude that Christianity is purely about God. Or at least, more about God than Islam is to its God. There is too much emphasis on Mohammed for you to say that Islam is purely about God. He plays an extremely central role in almost every way and people revere him with a reverence not unlike that usually shown towards a God.

It's preposterous to suggest that because Muslims emulate Muhammad (pbuh) therefore they idolise and worship him. Anyone who worships Muhammad (pbuh) is a polytheist and is outside of the fold of Islam. It's even more fanciful when we're comparing it to Christians, the vast bulk of whom (JW's and a few other small sects excluded) clearly, openly and unashamedly worship Jesus Christ (pbuh) and declare him to be God manifest.

They do declare him to be God manifest, so therefore they treat their God with an extreme respect. But none of the characters from the Bible (besides Jesus ofcourse) have anything like such a position in Christianity as Mohammed does in Islam. Jesus being God makes it acceptable to idolise/worship him. Mohammed was just another prophet really, but Muslims are as obsessed with him as the Christians are with Jesus. This shows far too much emphasis on one normal man, distracting the people from God. With the Christians this isn’t the case, not even David, Moses or Paul have a big role in Christianity.

Christianity lost its ability to transform lives at the Council of Jerusalem. Once Paul invented his own "easy come, easy go" version of Christianity for the "Gentiles" and it became dominant, Christianity became something that was more likely to be transformed rather than to transform. From there onwards it was a downward spiral. Christianity went from monotheistic religion to Syncretic Pagan mish-mash, and it just got worse and worse as time went on. Jesus (pbuh) and his followers would not even recognise it today.

Do you think it’s a bad thing that Christianity has changed massively since Jesus’s time? I think the ability to change over time is necessary. I honestly don’t think Christianity had many rules set in stone even in the beginning; it’s not like Judaism or Islam.

Well if they're illegals, they've gotta work cheap don't they?

They’re not actually all illegals. I don’t know about your country, but in my country over the last 20 years there has been a massive intake of legal immigrants.

To avoid being discovered. Hence the reason they're now closing the borders. So here's how it goes. 1) Announce you're welcoming millions of refugees, 2) let them set out crossing treacherous waters etc so there's no turning back, 3) Then close the borders when they're all almost there. And if some "events" happen to occur that would turn the public opinion against refugees, that can only be helpful. As it justifies why you had to close the borders.

I don’t understand what this means or how it relates. Can you explain it differently please.

Either way it's most certainly not going to be something stereotypical of Muslims.

Wearing silks isn’t stereotypical of Muslims? Is this not the case in Saudi Arabia and much of Pakistan? Maybe you should have a look around some towns and cities in England.

So when Muslims supposedly bombed the WTC, was it understandable that other Western countries would help the U.S seek revenge?

Yes, they were part of a political/military alliance and the Islamic threat was a problem for everyone.

It just never has been all throughout its history, until very recently, and that was by force.

Like I wrote above, I have to ask you about the era before the Roman Empire adopted Christianity. I mean the lengthy period of persecution.

She was a Canaanite. It was clearly about non-Israelites. Btw I think this feeds into the point above about transforming and how Christianity compromised for gentiles. Jesus' (pbuh) message was not designed for gentile consumption, and the fact it had to be transformed to make it appealing to them is evidence of this.

Who is “she”? Jesus’s message was designed for Gentile consumption and represented a move away from is his Jewish roots. If he was creating a new message that the Jews (and scripture) would disapprove of, who was he creating it for? Jesus’s message (like much of the New Testament) isn’t direct. I’m wondering why you seem to believe in the Gospels but not any of the letters of Paul. What are your views on the Gospel of John?

Also, are you supportive of the Islamic State

[anasawad]

Actually . Poverty. Wars. Crimes.illness. is infact us failing the test. Before mohammed people were few and simple. Most humanity lived within the past millenia. And the prophet was quite clear about this. He is to all of man kind and the last of gods prophets. Meaning that god wont interfere now. God will let us eirher follow his orders and succeed. Or disobey and fail. Islam was the last of all abrahamic religions. It summerized and completed them. In islam god gave humanity everythi g it needed . In politics. Economics. Sociology. Science ( as in d the importance of science) . Daily life and how to organise everything. The message is complete now the prophet said. God taught mankind everything they need. The more we fail to learn the worse it will be.

@besoeker
We cant discover our own universe. You want me to find scientific bases for describtion of god's world ??

At the point of god knowing everything. Scientifically the description god placed for hem self allows hem to know everything.
For all powerful .our universe is designed in ways that its statistically impossible to result by chance. And by all means impossible for someone 1400 years to describe. Some would say no thry had the knowledge. Things that we just began to discover are already described in islam. And many things said to be going to happen that were impossible to predict happened and still happening very clearly. Thats a proof of both all knowing and all powerful .1- because god sat the course for things almost impossible to happen to happen . And 2- to know how people would act and react in and to it.

[Frollein]

Aaaannnd... we're back at the testing. Besoeker's question still stands. How can an infallible being - all-knowing and all-powerful, as you said yourself - create a fallible creature, if not by intent? And why set this flawed creation up for failure, if not by malicious intent? Because even if, say, a victim of rape would "pass the test" by still being faithful and whatnot, the "test" would still be cruel and abusive and that "god" would have failed any test of compassion and kindness imaginable. Why would I want to keep the faith with such an abusive asshole?

This all under the premise that there exists an invisible being that created everything in the first place. The more logical conclusion is that people mistook their verbal hallucinations for some divine person speaking to them. As I already said, read Jaynes if you're not afraid to have your religious assumptions challenged.

But even if there was indeed an invisible being that created me flawed and fallible and then threw me into this mess to see if I still adored it: why bother with such an asshole? I wouldn't let any human being treat me like this, so why bother with some god?

In fact, this sort of thinking is as distorted as that of any victim of abuse: if children are abused by their parents, they blame themselves - they must have done something wrong to deserve the wrath, they failed their parents' expectations, they are bad, useless, unworthy of love, affection, or respect. Intermittent affection by the abusive parent only reinforces their craving for another shred of love, so they strive harder to be "good" and conclude that they have failed again when another round of abuse "testing" ensues. The poor sinners... The parent is powerful, flawless, and always in the right. Just like a god. The sad thing is that while there is therapy available for those victims, the same kind of thinking is allowed to persist in adults under the guise of "spirituality".

[Besoeker]

We cant discover our own universe. You want me to find scientific bases for describtion of god's world ??

Can you?
If you can, I'll listen.

[anasawad]

Actually we're not flawed nor perfect. In the quran many times god said he distinguished us with our minds and that when we go wrong we choose to go wrong. Meaning that we can either be perfect or we can flawed.
God is all justice meaning he will give us exactly what we deserve nothing more and nothing less . Then anther be mercyfull and god will be mercyfull on you. Its you who set the path. And the consequence of your choise will be fitting for it.
Free well is not flawed but with free well you can choose to be flawed because free well it self is a concept that cant be judged by it self but by the person.
What you said is quite an example of what m saying.
You said even if god exist youll choose not to follow. So you gave the free well and you decided your path.
God hasnt failed any test of kindness or compassion. Infact if you want to have a moral analysis of it. God has showed compassion and kindness to humanity far beyond imagination.
For example the story with phar'an. Many takes that god chose to take the life of young babies as brutal. But infact he showed mercy with them. God was going to punish the nation. So the babies being pure of sin. Instead of letting them suffer he took their souls .and by god's words children goes directly to heaven. So he showed mercy by taking them to heaven instead of leaving them with the rest being punished.
And for poverty for example. God set the earth to hold much more than humanity needed. And not just a little more. I mean literally way more than humanity needs. And said use it and told us how . If we follow there will be much more tha enough for all . We simply choose not to use it. Thats not god. Thats us choosing to deprive ourselves. Thats our failure.

Besoeker. Can i what. Basewhats described in the quran . Sure ll try. Thr unoverse started with a big bang. The big bang was of a singularity . According to quran our universe is the first sky. Each sky (sama') is a little ring in a big desert in comparison with onw after it. So if it was a singularity . What was koutside the singularity and where was it ? Logically it was in something bigger. Then god said he exploded the universe. Describing the big bang. After that god said the unoverae os infinite . How ?because god also said that he expands the universe with no boundaries which means infinite. And only will stop when god ends the universe it self. Logically . Beyond the borders of the universe there should be something to hold it. Thats the seven skies or heavens described. Only ends when after the 7th you reach the thrown of god and heaven exists. There basing on description there wont be time nor space thus infinity .

[Besoeker]

Besoeker. Can i what.

I was responding to this:
"You want me to find scientific bases for describtion of god's world ??"

Can you?

[anasawad]

Since its stated clearly that where god exist non of our universe rules then no. No one can.
But by logical and philosophical analysis. I just wrote it up there.

Btw. Respectfully but you are the one evading points now.

[Besoeker]

Since its stated clearly that where god exist non of our universe rules then no. No one can.
But by logical and philosophical analysis. I just wrote it up there.

Btw. Respectfully but you are the one evading points now.

What point have I evaded?
Ask me a direct question and you will get a direct answer.