[Dagoth Ur]

Compared to anyone who didn't exterminate around 12 million people in one war. Or is less than a century of peace supposed to erase that?

[Godstud]

Invoking Godwin's Law doesn't make your argument stronger.

[Dagoth Ur]

Well I am not doing that so cool.

[Godstud]

I'm sorry(were you not talking about the Holocaust?), were you arguing from analogy, yet another type of lame argument?

or was the argument more like: This guys did this and was worse, so that makes it OK?

[Dagoth Ur]

Nope. Comparing reactionaries with other reactionaries and saying I hate all of you.

[Rei Murasame]

To be fair, Japan (everything) + Korean junta (Korea, Manchurian actions, China) + Burmese National Army (Burma, WSE Asia) + Indonesia (dissolving the Dutch East Indies) + Indian National Army (SE Asia and S Asia region), together managed to eliminate something like 35 million lives in the Second World War with less advanced weaponry and a less industrialised society.

So on scale, I think that the the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere killed more than National Socialist Germany without even trying.

By Dagoth's strange logic, this would in fact make Frollein's people relatively inoffensive when compared to mine.

If Germans are to be considered 'indecent' by liberal standards, then there isn't enough room left on the rest of this 'decency' meter to chart everything else.

But in the end, we are all topped by the Muslim leader Tamerlane, who managed to somehow kill 1/5th of the world's population in like 6 years, during his reign. That is, if 'number of persons killed by your team' is now the benchmark being used for 'decency' here.

[Dagoth Ur]

That's not my logic at all. You're just affirming that all reactionaries are murderous scum. Also you accusing me of liberalism is a laugh.

[Rei Murasame]

But the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere and National Socialist Europe were not reactionary, they were revolutionary.

Particularly in Asia-Pacific, we were proletarian nations, which having had our livelihoods determined by the whim and fancy of the plutocrats, saw an opportunity to go for broke and establish a new power bloc under a new hegemony, and took it, thus 'betraying' the plutocrats.

We failed, and have lived in a kind of uneasy re-collaboration with those plutocrats ever since (they still don't trust us, I guess it's like how Megatron never fully trusts Starscream and vice versa*), but the cold and honest historical record is that third world nations have never come closer to entirely toppling the liberal world order than they did between 1937 - 1945.

It's one of those things where it's funny but also isn't funny, at the same time.

_______
* Would be funny if it weren't such an eerily sensible trope. East Asia = Starscream; USA-UK = Megatron.

[Dagoth Ur]

No the Revolutionaries fought Japanese "co-prosperity" at every chance.

Oh and by topple do you mean preserve? Because every fascist country is now liberal and all that really fascism achieved was sapping the strength of communist momentum.

[KlassWar]

I like how threads like this one lure out the Muslim apologists. It's entertaining to see what gets dragged in to defend Islam - nothing's too ridiculous to show how Islam is "enlightened". You seem to hate liberal society a lot, judging by your preference for this reactionary ideology. Perhaps it's true that every generation needs a bloody war to appreciate the peace.

Islam used to be relatively enlightened for its place and time, and in actual fact throughout the High Middle Ages the islamic world went through a cultural and scientific renaissance, and the mutazili progressives got quite close to a full-on rationalist revision of Islam, which might have allowed the Muslims to get The Enlightenment some eight centuries early.

Unfortunately for the muslims, the mutazili movement lost, there was a significant fundie backlash and Islam pretty much fossilized into the mess that it has been since.

[Potemkin]

Unfortunately for the muslims, the mutazili movement lost, there was a significant fundie backlash and Islam pretty much fossilized into the mess that it has been since.

Actually, the mutazili movement had only themselves to blame for that decline. They managed to become the official state ideology of the Islamic world in the early 9th century, but then imposed a brutal Inquisition on Islamic scholarship, purging anyone who openly disagreed with them. So much for their 'rationalism' and their belief in 'free will'. Even if it had survived, the mutazili movement would not have led to an Islamic 'Enlightenment', but more likely to something resembling Spain under Torquemada.

[Ganeshas Rat]

I am maybe agree with the sentence by its sense, but I fully deny the form of this sentence. Mohammed was a mass murderer, Columb was a Hitler of his time, Creon was a mad dictator and Caesar was a supporter of LGBT people. Mohammed was a dark-age Arab in power, and that's enough to say about Mohammed. What's the point of talking about mass murders? It's impossible to blame Mohammed for ignorance and lack of 20th century Western left ideas about ethics. He created his own ethics, allowing mass murders, pedophilia, etc. And morality of such ethic system can be disputable, but Mohammed cannot.

[KlassWar]

Actually, the mutazili movement had only themselves to blame for that decline. They managed to become the official state ideology of the Islamic world in the early 9th century, but then imposed a brutal Inquisition on Islamic scholarship, purging anyone who openly disagreed with them. So much for their 'rationalism' and their belief in 'free will'. Even if it had survived, the mutazili movement would not have led to an Islamic 'Enlightenment', but more likely to something resembling Spain under Torquemada.

So now purging conservatives from positions of ideological influence is not progressive?

The Jacobins and the Bolsheviks managed to become the official state ideology of 19th century France and 20th century Russia, and then imposed a ruthless persecution of the conservative scum that disagreed with them . Anyone that wants progress has to ruthlessly purge conservative elements from any influential position in society.

[Potemkin]

Applying concepts such as 'progressive' or 'reactionary' to a 9th century Islamic religious movement is... questionable, KlassWar. You are retrospectively imposing modern political categories onto a time and a culture in which they were pretty much meaningless. This is basically the Whig version of history.

[Harmattan]

A reactionary criticizing other reactionaries is hardly convicing.

In my opinion Islam totally redefined the meaning of "far-right", "conservatism" and "reactionary". Our far-right does not even dare to threaten abortion rights, it sounds too muslim-ish.

The new political spectrum: far-left, left, center, right, right, Islam.

To be fair only 30% of Msulims are concerned by this new classification. In France the rest vote for the socialist party. Not because they adhere to their ideas but because the right-wing is openly islamophobe.

[Potemkin]

In my opinion Islam totally redefined the meaning of "far-right", "conservatism" and "reactionary". Our far-right does not even dare to threaten abortion rights, it sounds too muslim-ish.

The rise of Islamism has had a certain effect on the European far right. It has been like Caliban seeing his own reflection, and not liking what he saw.

[Sphinx]

at least let your daughter go to the swimming and sports classes, because this country is committed to helping your child in his personal development.

What if she is shy to go naked in front of men? Is it a bad thing?

[Ganeshas Rat]

What if she is shy to go naked in front of men? Is it a bad thing?

When I was going to the swimming class in my childhood, there were special rooms where girls could change their clothes, boys and other men were disallowed to entry. Locker rooms, if I remember correctly.

[killim]

Abdel-Samad has clearly a Personal Agenda here. Isn't he the guy with the kidnapping which was noch kidnapping? The guy who published political rants against every side? tl'dr for the rest.

[anasawad]

'm tired now so 'll read all comments and post my comment tomorrow ...though it wont change anyone's mind....
but to the point.....
1-why is this in a europe sub forum not in religion forum ?
2-since i think everyone not doing it is tired of attacks on islam in every single threat even if it was talking about pre-historical chinese economy or what ever....
cant someone create a forum called anti-islam or something and everyone can just post what ever they like there ...? for everyone sake really not just me being bored of the always off topic of the threat and off topic of the forum posts and threads ??