[Albert]

Well I do not know, I just came in into discussion from first glance you seemed to be in agreement on this subject at least. In principle that is, but lost in definitions.

[Drlee]

We both represent two wings of Christianity. He represents the fundamentalists side which holds that the Bible is literally true in every way. For example he argues that the world really was made in 168 hours less 24 hours off.

I represent the centrist view of Christianity which holds that the Bible contains truth, allegory, parable and contradiction. I do not believe that the world was made in 168 hours less breaks. I believe in evolution also.

I do not believe that we Christians ought to condemn homosexuality. I am fine with same-sex marriage. On and on. We could not be further apart in our beliefs.

I am particularly annoying to some atheists who pout like crazy when I refuse to debate Jonah's whale with them.

[Albert]

Yea, it surprises me how people can be fundamental in their religion and doctrine. As I mention before Paul himself stated that faith comes before dogma. And not to mention Jesus was considered as a heretic, at his time by religious authority especially cause he broke so many tenets of then doctrine.

I do not take the bible literally as well, and I think it is silly that many religious people and especially clergy make the same mistake of being fundamental in their doctrine, similarly as the people who put Christ on the cross. I mean you would think at least the clergy and many Christian leaders would have learned since Galileo Galilei and Copernicus that it is a loosing game.

I can not agree with you on gay marriage though, I think it is preposterous that is allowed.

[Godstud]

Just replace Kim Davis, with Albert, and it works just fine.


Intolerance, among Christians, I find detestable. It's anti-Christiana, and completely against what Jesus preached.

Jesus chased money-lenders out of the church, not homosexuals.

[Albert]

Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. So how can I be against what Jesus preached?

There was probably no concept back then such as homosexuality. This should tell you a lot.

[Godstud]

Homosexuality has always been around. There's a lot of historic evidence of this. You're only lying to yourself.

Maybe when Jesus said Love your neighbour, he was being literal.
or... just maybe, homosexuality wasn't important enough for him to bother with.

Jesus preached:
Love thy Neighbour.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Do unto others, as you'd have them do unto you.

Shall I go on?

[Hindsite]

I think you guys are getting confused in definitions here. Hindsite you seem to define religion as doctrine and customs. Separate from faith and believe.

Drlee defines religion as faith and believe, and separate (to a degree of his own measure) from doctrine and customs. But I think in principle you are actually not in disagreement.

If we go by Corinthians, Paul stressed that faith is more important then doctrine, therefore we can say that the defining core of Christian religion is faith. Therefore to have faith is to have religion.

I forget what gospel it is from, but a man asked Jesus what should he do? This was I believe when Jesus was at the wedding. So he replied "Just believe, believe in god that is all you need to do". (Usually Jesus will say after also to follow the commandments, but I believe he did not say it then). I'm paraphrasing here but that is what remember. So again, here it is suggested, to simply believe, that is all that must be done, at the core of it all.

You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.
(James 2:19 New Living Translation)

[Albert]

1My brethren, do not hold the glorious faith of Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah with acceptance of persons. 2For if a man will enter your assembly with a gold ring or fine clothing and a poor man enters in dirty clothing, 3And you have regard for him wearing fine clothing, and you say to him, "Sit well here", and you say to the poor man, "Stand over there or sit here before our* footstool.", 4Behold, are you not divided in your souls and have you not become expositors of wicked reasonings? 5Hear, my beloved brethren: Is it not the poor of this world, however, who are rich in faith? God has chosen them to be the heirs in that Kingdom which God has promised to those who love him. 6But you have despised the poor. Behold, do not the rich have dominion over you and drag you to court? 7Behold, do they not slander The Worthy Name by which you are called?
8And if you fulfill The Written Law of God in this, as it is written: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself", you are doing well. 9But if you show partiality, you are sinning, and you are reproved by The Written Law as violators against The Written Law. 10For whoever keeps the whole Written Law and slips in one thing, he is condemned by the entire Law. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery", also said, "You shall not murder." But if you are not committing adultery, but you have murdered, you have become a violator of The Law. 12So be speaking and acting as a person who is going to be judged by The Law of Liberty. 13The judgment is without mercy against him who does not practice mercy, but with mercy, you have dominion over judgment*.

14What good is it my brethren, if a man says, 'I have faith', and he does not have deeds? Can his faith save him? 15And if a brother or sister is naked and lacking daily food, 16And any of you will say to them, "Go in peace, be warm, be full", and he would not give them the bodily necessities, what good is that? 17So also faith alone without works is dead.

18For a man may say to you, "You and I have faith*; I have works. Show me your faith without* works, and I shall show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is One; you do well; the demons also believe and tremble. 20Are you willing to know, oh feeble man, that faith without works is dead*? 21Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Do you see that his faith upheld his deeds and by deeds his faith was perfected? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which said, "Abraham believed in God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness", and he was called the friend* of God. 24You see that by works a man is justified and not from faith alone. 25In this way also, was not Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the scouts and sent them out by another way? 26Just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

BibleHub

Here is the full chapter, what James writes here is that we can know if a person is faithful is though his/her works/acts and not through words. I agree.

So what do we show through our actions when we take the bible to literally?

Homosexuality has always been around. There's a lot of historic evidence of this. You're only lying to yourself.

Maybe when Jesus said Love your neighbour, he was being literal.
or... just maybe, homosexuality wasn't important enough for him to bother with.

Jesus preached:
Love thy Neighbour.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Do unto others, as you'd have them do unto you.

Shall I go on?

The act buggery has been around sure, but the concept of homosexuality not. And I think homosexuality was just not important for him to bother with. It does not mean he would have had approved of it though.

Jesus did not say
Love thy neighbour, and let him trespass your property.
Judge not, lest ye be judge, and let you wife bang your neighbour.
Do unto others, as you'd have them do unto you, so have some courtesy for reach around.

We very well know Jesus did not mean that with those statements, but something else. To take his words to literally and to use it against someone's position you do not like, is misunderstanding and misusing the scripture.

[Godstud]

Jesus did not say
Love thy neighbour, and let hum trespass your property.
Judge not, lest ye be judge and let you wife bang your neighbour.

What does that have to do with anything I said?

Was Jesus against consensual sex? I don't remember him saying anything about trespassing, unless you meant to forgive those who trespass against us. He really didn't have much to say about property rights, aside from telling you to give away your earthly belongings.

As for homosexuality....
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_homosexuality

Also, buggery is anal intercourse and not limited to homosexuals. Get your terms correct.

Also, if you decide to use the term sodomy, be aware that includes oral sex, so most people have been guilty of it, at one time or another.

It does not mean he would have had approved of it though.

If you go by his reactions to everything else, and his teachings, you can definitely come to the conclusion that Jesus would not have disapproved of it. He did, after all, live with prostitutes and the dregs of society, and he did not judge them.

[Albert]

Also, buggery is anal intercourse and not limited to homosexuals. Get your terms correct.

In time of Christ there was no idea of homosexuality, there was act of buggery though. He probably never mentioned it because it was unthinkable that it would ever become an issue and be considered as a good act.

What does that have to do with anything I said?

Was Jesus against consensual sex? I don't remember him saying anything about trespassing, unless you meant to forgive those who trespass against us. He really didn't have much to say about property rights, aside from telling you to give away your earthly belongings.

My point is that you are misunderstanding and misusing what Jesus said. Jesus was against consensual sex in adultery. He believed in commandments which one of them says do not steal. Again you are taking the words of Jesus to literally.

If you go by his reactions to everything else, and his teachings, you can definitely come to the conclusion that Jesus would not have disapproved of it. He did, after all, live with prostitutes and the dregs of society, and he did not judge them.

He did not judge them, but he did not say, go ahead and continue doing it.

[Godstud]

You are making assumptions based on no facts whatsoever. I already demonstrated to you, by my last post, that homosexuality is not new. It's been around forever.

[Albert]

Anyways, whatever sure. There was concept of homosexuality. It is not that important anyways. I'm sure they had some sort of name for them back then, like "olive boys" or something.

[Besoeker]

Jesus never mentioned homosexuality.

The bible does though:

Leviticus 20:13King James Version (KJV)

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

[Hindsite]

The bible does though:

Leviticus 20:13King James Version (KJV)

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Also Christ's apostle to the Gentiles referred to the acts of homosexuality when writing to both the Romans and the Corinthians. For example:

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. (Romans 1:26-27)