[Rich]

Trust me. I'm a theologian.

So is my grandfather.

My Dad had a Theology degree. He also had a first in Classics. He was a lay reader. A tutor of lay readers and a moderator of lay reader courses. I had to go to Church or Sunday School. till I was 13 years old. I went to Church till I was 11. I remember I always preferred it when my Dad gave the Sermon, as he actually said some thing mildly intellectually stimulating compared to the the vacuous crap the other lay readers and rectors gave.

I remember my shock in a discussion as an adult, when he quoted me 2 Peter 3:16 as the actual words of Peter. I mean really. 2 Peter its normally dated as the latest work in the Cannon.

[Donna]

How? It says what it says. How would they be able to get around the absolutely torrent of text that they'd have to edit? What would they argue? That a god that is supposedly 'never wrong' and is supposedly 'correct in all times and places', managed to somehow get one or more of his prophets and apostles to speak lies, and then those lies just so happened to endure for 2000+ years?

They've painted themselves into a corner completely.

Sounds like you're narrowly defining Christianity with its historical mythologies while ignoring all of the typological content.

Perhaps Paul was an asshole, but John wasn't.

[Decky]

Calvinism ≠ Christianity.

Pote is Scotish so for him the two are the the same actually.

[Plaro]

The message of Christianity is indeed very radical, as it was back then and is still now, requiring great courage and sacrifice to follow in Christ's steps.

I don't remember in which gospel it was, but it was when Jesus was at the wedding. A man who was at the celebration sat beside Christ and was talking with him. At one point of the conversation he asked him, "what must I do in order to know god, what is required." Jesus replied, "Nothing is required, just have faith in him, believe in him."

The central part of Christianity is faith and believe in god through Christ. Through it we can attain the kingdom of heaven and god.

As Christ said, "Seek kingdom of heaven first, then everything else will be added on to you." To seek kingdom of heaven, I believe is possible through faith.

For myself I find this the hardest thing to do, to actually have faith. As to have faith is to give up ones own will. As through it we lend god decided the future, money gains, revenge, guides one in proper conduct, be it in relationship, friendship, defending oneself with violence.

I find faith is ridiculously simple as it is the purest form of human expression, yet is the most ridiculously hard thing to do.

[Donna]

As to have faith is to give up ones own will.

Not at all, the Christian faith is all about coordinating the human will with the will of the divine and overcoming the primordial Fall; this free agency, when oriented toward the divine, is what allows God to walk among us in the manner of Christ. It is exoteric Christianity that has this idea that 'faith' is when reason is suspended in order to reconcile a fallible doctrine with the imposition of material realities. If that is what faith is, then obviously it is incredibly easy to have nagging doubts about dogmatic content, to the point where suppressing one's ability to reason receives saintly projection. This is completely wrong: the great Christian saints enjoy their titles because they understood the meaning of Christ's wounds as the will to receive the divine. As Paul said, "I live but I live not, Christ lives in me."

[Plaro]

As far as my understanding of Christianity goes, one has to surrender reason as well. Basically knowledge too. It is true act of faith.

"I live but I live not, Christ lives in me."

As far as I can tell, Paul here basically says he lives no more by his own will but that of god. It is similar what David said in his Psalm about the valley of the shadow of death.

1. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

[Donna]

Isn't it, like, open to interpretation, man?

[Plaro]

It is, my interpretation from what I have read and by no means am I trying to take away validity of other's peoples interpretations and choice into what to believe.

I don't know, perhaps I should not speak of such things, cause it is very personal and I'm no prophet or virtuous human being that has authority on this. But I'm just speaking from my experience, with my practice.

Giving up knowledge is considered to be one of the most sacred acts. As it is much more deeper act of sacrifice then lets say material stuff, like money, possessions. Or, not exactly in material realm, but it is also considered higher then giving up ones own work.

From my practice of such sacrificial acts, is that it is terrifying at first. The fear is, well if I give up knowledge or reason at this moment, I will be completely vulnerable like a fool. But yet, that is unreasonable in itself, cause I can always return to being "reasonable" again. So what is in harm to sacrifice a moment of your day, to being without reason.

Also in the Bible if one reads it, in many points they stress the importance of keeping ones own heart, cause that is the gate to god. I think this is also very true, when we decide to be in that state of no reason and of no knowledge for a bit. We really begin to feel and sense the world more so through our hearts.

Anyhow, that is just what I have to offer to the table here.

[Donna]

Also in the Bible if one reads it, in many points they stress the importance of keeping ones own heart, cause that is the gate to god. I think this is also very true, when we decide to be in that state of no reason and of no knowledge for a bit. We really begin to feel and sense the world more so through our hearts.

I am a Hermeticist and mystic, so I reject "either/or" interpretations of Writ. Rather than viewing the world through the heart 'instead' of the mind, or crown, etc., I view the heart as analogous to the Sun, in the sense that orbiting functions (such as reason or acquisition of knowledge) should not cease to be but should merely conform to the spiritual mass of the Solar Heart.

But to each his own and I appreciate your humility nonetheless.

[Plaro]

I view the heart as analogous to the Sun, in the sense that orbiting functions (such as reason or acquisition of knowledge) should not cease to be but should merely conform to the spiritual mass of the Solar Heart.

In a sense what you say is very true. I find that indeed in the end our hearts are in orbital relation around the core, which is the spirit. That is truth and god. Whatever is true is pure and godly and only the wicked who are fooled by the devil can not see the truth and feel the spirit.

Yet our hearts is the closest thing to the spirit even if they be damaged or corrupt. Our heart works directly in relation to it and if ones heart is not frozen and alive, we feel this relation to the spirit more easily then we can attain through reason. Yet we need reason and mental faculties to understand this, but it has to be pure reason, like a pure heart. I cant find where I have read it in the bible, but that is why when we pray, the most valuable thing we can ask for, is understanding. Because understanding is true knowing, you do not need words to prove it and complex ideas to have it.

Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.

Being still, meaning relinquishing knowledge and reason, thus becoming more open to our good lord and spirit. And truth of things. Then understanding through commune with our heart can come. Naturally without effort it reveals itself, that is true understanding and faith as far as I gather.

Anyhow, ill stop here. I feel like I have no right to speak further on this, like that. I do not have full understanding regarding such spiritual matters and practices. It should be more a tried and tested guru speaking like this. Not me.

All the best in spirit to you Donald.

[Dagoth Ur]

@Rei/Hirdmann: You guys know that Sola Scriptura is the idea that the bible is infallible. Not even all Protestants agree with Sola Script. The Catholics, despite their many flirtations with idolotry, place the Word of the Church well above the Bible. Although of course the Catholics love Paul so them fixing his counterrevolutionary tendencies is a laugh.

And I really don't get this "written in stone" approach to Christians. It's pretty clear that picking and choosing from the bible is a tradition as old as the book itself. I mean only the most nutbar modern Christians would argue for the stoning of adulterers or slavery even though they are clearly permitted (and in some cases obligatory). I really don't get the point of lying about the way Christians has been, and currently is, applied in the real world.

Re: the idea that Christianity is compatible to communism. Of course it can be compatible, it was made compatible with Capitalism as well. The base will change, and religious rhetoric will come to embody our ideals and the form of religion with be irreparably changed.

[Paradigm]

The Greek term translated as "faith" is pistis, which might better be translated as "faithfulness." When we read Paul refer to "faith in Christ," the original text is something like "Pistis Christos," which can also be translated as "faithfulness of Christ." We can make sense of this when we look at other sections of Paul's writings where he clearly seems to be talking about a theology of participation, in which we participate in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. So, too, is he calling us to participate in the faithfulness of Christ. We can also understand Jesus as saying that "faithfulness the size of a mustard seed" can move mountains. Whether you choose to translate it as "faith" or "faithfulness," the way I understand it is a way of facing forward into the mystery. It almost certainly does not mean "dogmatic belief without evidence," as is commonly understood.

[Plaro]

I suggest reading Bhagavad Gita. The relationship between Krishna and Supreme Being in that text is very similar to that of Christ and God. In fact there is many similarities between Krishna's teachings and that of Christ and Christianity in general. It is one of those cross-cultural text that will help to broaden understanding. The practice of faith and devotion, to its ideal outcome, is very well explained there as well.

India's religious practices are very diverse and one can find almost every type of spiritual practices that exist throughout the world found there.

[Paradigm]

I own a copy of the Bhagavad Gita, and though I've not completed it, I have read a good deal of it. Certainly the Hindu concept of an "avatar" bears some similarity to the Christian concept of incarnation. I think, however, that that's where the similarities end. Krishna's teachings were largely metaphysical, while Christ's teachings were mostly ethical in nature. Christ said very little about the nature of reality, or even about his own nature. That was left up to subsequent councils that integrated Greek and Jewish ideas to create Christianity as we know it today.

[MEAGAIN]

Rei,

Who are you to keep saying such filthy words when addressing the bible? You have alot of hate in you for a book you don't accept. Your not the christians dictator and its none of your business what someone who doesn't bother you beleives. Now there are those who seem to really want to change your life to meet their beleifs but real christians are not it.

I think Jesus was real and the apostles didn't have the right or the power to change the slave situation during that period, they too were being persecuted.

Its people like you who don't like any religion yet only curse and persecute one. While ignoring the most violent and jumping at chance to attack the peaceful probably proves your full of fear and only lash out at those who allow it.

I'm not a christian eithe in the sense of the word accordign to the churches today. I'm still seeking the truth in all the 500 different ways to be a christian but no sense in taking peace from those who do have faith,we all need all the peace we can muster today.

Peace to you.

[Rei Murasame]

Who are you to keep saying such filthy words when addressing the bible?

What, do I need a licence now?

You have alot of hate in you for a book you don't accept.

Yes.

Your not the christians dictator and its none of your business what someone who doesn't bother you beleives.

Nonsense. I live in western society and so it is in fact my business.

Now there are those who seem to really want to change your life to meet their beleifs but real christians are not it.

If you're trying to claim that Christianity is non-political, that's a good joke.

I think Jesus was real and the apostles didn't have the right or the power to change the slave situation during that period, they too were being persecuted.

What a convenient excuse.

Its people like you who don't like any religion yet only curse and persecute one.

Actually, I curse and persecute Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

You will find an overwhelming number of instances of that on this forum, I'm actually the #1 person who is most unkind to Islam around here. I'm also probably also the only person here who has set a Quran on fire while it was wrapped in a Saudi flag.

While ignoring the most violent

I'm literally a supporter of the War on Terror, I work in the defence industrial sector, so that means I literally make money from the war. I wouldn't call that 'ignoring the most violent', I'd call it 'paying a whole lot of attention to them'.

and jumping at chance to attack the peaceful probably proves your full of fear and only lash out at those who allow it.

No, I'm an equal-opportunity attacker, I'll attack anything that I don't like. No one has to allow me to criticise their religion, I'll criticise it with or without permission.

I'm not a christian eithe in the sense of the word accordign to the churches today. I'm still seeking the truth in all the 500 different ways to be a christian but no sense in taking peace from those who do have faith,we all need all the peace we can muster today.

On the contrary, we do not need peace, we need war. Everyone has come to value peace too much.

[Potemkin]

On the contrary, we do not need peace, we need war. Everyone has come to value peace too much.

The Irish poet WB Yeats was once given a samurai sword by a Japanese admirer, who told Yeats that the sword had been in his family for generations but that, having read Yeats' work, he knew that Yeats was worthy of it. Several years later, Yeats was reading a book of Rabindranath Tagore's poetry. It infuriated him so much that he threw the book onto the floor and then attacked it with the samurai sword he had been given, shouting: "He preaches love, but the truth is blood, the truth is blood!"

His Japanese admirer was right - Yeats was worthy of the sword he had been given.