[Rugoz]

Do Christians have an advantage over Muslims ?

Abdel-Samad: Yes, because Jesus invites us to do good, and you can say with complete justification that the Crusaders have abused the teaching of Jesus, because Jesus never conducted a campaign and never beheaded anyone.

Lol wut?

[Frollein]

The point that Abdel-Samad makes (obviously not clearly enough for a lot of people) is that Islam is not enlightened today and by design unfit to be reformed.

The second point is that people today are apparently still unable to critically judge Mohammed - instead they find all kinds of ridiculous arguments that seek to justify his actions then and their aptness as a role model for today. The posts in this thread are a fine example of that, as well as of the West's delusion that it needs to hold a protective hand over this crappy ideology. Abdel-Samad wants people to stop giving this man a status that makes him immune to questioning or critique. What's so difficult to understand about this?

I'd like Dagoth to demonstrate how I'm a reactionary. Please, provide some evidence.

And to everyone who is annoyed at the subject, I have a tip: Just don't click on the fucking thread!

Oh, and it's not in the religious subforum because Islam insists on inserting itself politically into Europe. I frankly don't give a fuck which goat you sacrifice in the deserts of the Middle East, it's when you come into my country and cry for us not catering to your special needs that I start caring.

[Dagoth Ur]

You are a German Nationalist that believes in the Right of Private Property. What part of that isn't reactionary?

I also think Muhammad can be critiqued and I don't have to make insane islamic exceptionalist arguments (like Islam cannot be reformed) to do so.

[Frollein]

The part where I don't call a fatwa on anyone that disagrees with me?

[Decky]

I believe there was a Fatwa over Gdansk in 1939?

[Dagoth Ur]

Haha.

@frollzy: no you just think transgender people don't deserve any kind of basic decency and worry about foreigners all the time (if it wasn't Muslims it would be Poles or Slavs or Greeks). But since no fatwas, totally not reactionary.

[Frollein]

So? If I was as reactionary as your precious Muslim victims, I'd be forming terror cells now to wage a holy war against the intruders of my home. And no, I'm not taking the transgender phenomenon seriously. Dressing up as a pony won't make you win in Ascot, you know? But unlike your Muslims, I'm not going out of my way to make their life a hell.

[Dagoth Ur]

Yes Muslim reactionaries are also shit. Congratulations you're in great company.

[Frollein]

Muslim reactionary = pleonasm.

Seeing as you claim to be a Muslim, I'd say you're in great company. How are the rights of gays and trans people in, say, Iran or Saudia Arabia? To name just two states where the words of the prophet are also the law of the country. I mean, they must be heaven for a Muslim, no? No sin, no infidels - a state of (almost) perfection.

Just not for gays.

Or women.

Or Christians.

Or Atheists.

Or... you get the idea.

[Sphinx]

pleonasm

And now I have learnt a new word.

Muslim-majority countries range from the most religious (Saudi Arabia) to the most secular (Turkey). I prefer moderate countries like Egypt; neither religious nor secular, somewhere in the middle. But maybe I am just used to it.

[killim]

Due to obvious reasons the topic was moved to this part of PoFo, where it rightly belongs due to the content of the discussion

[anasawad]

in iran ..nearly 60-70 percent of scientific workforce are women (doctors-engineers-scientists..etc)
and christians and athiests and even jews are treated normally in iran just as everyone else....infact with tribes having christian populations in them ..specially roman orthodox...christians are treated quite well just as a shia in iran .....

people are not so fond of gays and in hand nor the government so its expected...and the only ones to be oppresed in iran are either bahai's or abadi's and thats for historical political reasons (search savak police and mohammed Pahlavi )


and how in any sense iran is comparable to saudi arabia....a sunni in iran has a dozen times better life in iran than in saudi arabia.....
iran is also one of the most culturaly and religiously diversed countries all around ....

and for the laws......search the islamic revolution and khomainei deals with local entities durning....

[Dagoth Ur]

@frollzy: it is interesting how much you agree with Islamist propaganda.

[Rugoz]

The point that Abdel-Samad makes (obviously not clearly enough for a lot of people) is that Islam is not enlightened today and by design unfit to be reformed.

Was the old testament fit to be reformed? I doubt it, that's why nowadays its being ignored or looked at in its "historical context".

Muslim reactionary = pleonasm.

I posted in another thread that 35% of French Muslims think homosexuality is morally acceptable. Those 35% are more progressive than large parts of the French population.

Obviously on average Muslims are more reactionary, which is not surprising given that the entire Muslim world is a reactionary shithole.

[Nets]

Muslim-majority countries range from the most religious (Saudi Arabia) to the most secular (Turkey). I prefer moderate countries like Egypt; neither religious nor secular, somewhere in the middle. But maybe I am just used to it.

Erdogan's Turkey is hardly the "secular" end of the Muslim world. Countries like Azerbaijan or Albania are nominally Muslim but are far less overtly Islamic than modern Turkey. Rebuffed by Europe, Turkey seems to be undergoing a Middle Eastification and it is unfortunate.

[Potemkin]

Rebuffed by Europe, Turkey seems to be undergoing a Middle Eastification and it is unfortunate.

There are three possible directions in which Turkey can seek to expand its influence - in Central Asia, in Eastern Europe, and in the Middle East. It has been blocked from Central Asia, first by the Soviet Union and now by Russia and China, and Europe has (it feels) rejected it, which leaves only the Middle East. The power vacuum in Iraq and in Syria has induced Turkey to try to move into that vacuum to increase its prestige and influence in the area....

[Frollein]

Was the old testament fit to be reformed? I doubt it, that's why nowadays its being ignored or looked at in its "historical context".

Which is exactly what Abdel-Samad wants to happen to the Koran. Glad you agree with him and me on that.

I posted in another thread that 35% of French Muslims think homosexuality is morally acceptable. Those 35% are more progressive than large parts of the French population.

It also puts them in direct contradiction to the Koran, so how can they still be called Muslims? In order to hold these views (and a lot of other Western liberal values) and simultaneously be Muslim, Islam would need to be reformed, but as it is now, they are violating the teachings of their religion. So they are actually supporting Abdel-Samad's stance on the matter:

I do not think that Islam can be reformed. But Muslims can reform their thinking, reform their mindset and modernize their relationship to religion by struggling through to the conviction that faith is a private matter. It is necessary to begin the demystification of Muhammad and the religion founded by him. You have to say goodbye to parts of the authentic Islam, to the constraints, to the legitimation of violence.

Without the blessing of their religious authorities, I don't see this happening. Islam is such a authoritarian ideology that it has to be reformed top-down.

anasawad, I know that Iranians and Arabs would jump at anyone's throat who suggest that they are in any way comparable. They are the big competitors and adversaries in the Middle East, after all. But Iran is an Islamic theocracy and that ideology does shape its laws and internal politics in a way that is incompatible with Western liberalism. I honestly don't care how other nations design their societies. If the Middle East wants to follow Islam, fine. What I don't accept is these people migrating to the West and then demanding our tolerance for their reactionary, intolerant ideology. It can't be reformed, there's not even the intention there to try it. It's disruptive to our way of life. It has no place here.

[The Sabbaticus]

in iran ..nearly 60-70 percent of scientific workforce are women (doctors-engineers-scientists..etc)
and christians and athiests and even jews are treated normally in iran just as everyone else....infact with tribes having christian populations in them ..specially roman orthodox...christians are treated quite well just as a shia in iran .....

people are not so fond of gays and in hand nor the government so its expected...and the only ones to be oppresed in iran are either bahai's or abadi's and thats for historical political reasons (search savak police and mohammed Pahlavi )


and how in any sense iran is comparable to saudi arabia....a sunni in iran has a dozen times better life in iran than in saudi arabia.....
iran is also one of the most culturaly and religiously diversed countries all around ....

and for the laws......search the islamic revolution and khomainei deals with local entities durning....

- Khomeini is a genocidal religious extremist.
-

Iran is facing a socioeconomic issue in women’s unemployment. According to an article published in the March 2014 issue of Iran Economics, only 13% of the workforce consists of women and the latest official statistics for women's unemployment stands at 15.6%, though unofficial unemployment figures for this group is 38.3%. Furthermore, only 9.2% of the entrepreneurs in Iran are women. Al-Monitor

- Iranian Jews and Christians are second class citizens

- Iran has a religious police
- the Iranian government is infested with clerical parochials
- Homosexual men are executed or forced to undergo sexual reassignment surgery

As for the laws -- people are subjected to the religious vagaries of clerical parochials.

[Dagoth Ur]

One of the most important pillars of Islam: non-muslim atheists are who get to decide who is really muslim and who isn't.

[Frollein]

Actually it's the ideological apparatus that decides who is and who isn't a proper Muslim. That's what the IS is currently doing. They even decide which shoes are appropriate to wear for true and proper Muslims, and it can be pretty painful to get caught with the wrong footwear... but hey, if it helps to get to paradise, who am I to judge.